MakeItHappen 15 #26 January 7, 2006 Quote who was the author of the article in From Parachutist June 1997 page 41: The article was called Welcome to Malfunction Junction by Emily Bump Girard and Kevin Gibson. BTW, I had no input to the article, if that is what you were really asking. Quote Quote from Poynter and Turoff: 126-7: “Pilot chute in tow may be short or long. It is short when the pilot chute bridle is looped around something such as a harness strap.”.... “The pilot chute in tow is long when the pilot chute pulls the bridle line to its full extent but does not pull the pin securing the main container.” I believe this is in reference to visual clues. Even so a pullout can have a PCIT according to these gods, unlike you say. I think maybe you need to reread. I bolded the part that says the container is closed. As I said in the first post of this discussion: "If you can show me a pull-out system that allows the main pilot chute [cocked or uncocked, tangled or untangled] in the airstream without the main pin clearing the closing loop, I'll be happy to debate a new issue." Quote Quote RogerRamJet wrote: A pilot chute in tow is just that, a pilot chute over your back with nothing extracting. I think I can speak on this as I'm pretty sure I had the first ever pilot chute in tow on a hand deploy rig while testing for Bill Booth There ya go! Thanks Roger! And along with other illustrious accomplishments, Roger Clark is the official PCIT #1. You'd think Bill Booth would have wanted that number. ;) Quote Quote Jan wrote: First the definition of a pilot chute in tow: - the pilot chute has been extracted from the pouch (where ever it is located), thrown into the airstream and the pin has NOT cleared the closing loop. A PCIT malfunction has a CLOSED container. Who has invented this definition? it looks strangely like your writing style. hmmmmmmmmm...Do you jump a pull out? Should not definitions be unbiased? Check out what I found from your links.. It reeks of bias. All three of those r.s posts were written by me over the years. Yes I jump a pull out. One of the reasons I do is because the ambiguous situation cannot happen on a pull out. I cannot (even after 25 years of thinking about it) decide whether it is better to cutaway-pull reserve or pull reserve for a pilot chute in tow or the situation that looks like a pilot chute in tow (container lock). Since I can not decide upon EPs for a throw out, on the ground, I will not jump that deployment system. Quote Quote Jan wrote: "What do I recommend? I can not decide whether or not to cutaway from a PCIT, so I avoid the situation completely. I jump a pud" Jan, I think I see the point that you were trying to get across with your links. That you disagreed with USPA BSR´s response to this type of mal and which I applaud you because I think your response is on the logic train and I would do the same. But how can you diss them and then cite them for authoritative info? I am angry with you for throwing your bias on such a life or death situation, being the cornerstone of knowledge resource that you are, you have certain criteria to maintain to remain a cornerstone. It seems from the posts that a PCIT is exactly the that. A "Pilot Chute In Tow". The bad side of this now is that my Velcro BASE rig can have a PCIT with me attached. USPA's recommendation is a recommendation, not a BSR, that you can find in Section 5 of the SIM. Contrary to what you may think, I tell people about the two EP plans that USPA recommends for throw outs. I tell people that I cannot decide which way is better. It is up to each jumper to pick the EP. I do not prefer one over the other. I also tell people that I jump a pullout because I cannot decide which EP is better. I do not have to deal with this ambiguous situation with a pullout. Just one more thought, it may be unsettling for a new jumper to hear that someone with my experience cannot pick an EP for throw-outs. Consider what Mike McGowan did. For years and years and thousands of jumps he had the EP of cutaway-pull reserve for a PCIT. Then one day he had a PCIT and cutaway-pulled reserve. The canopies entangled. If it weren't for trees out at Cross Keys, he'd be dead. Today, his EPs are pull-reserve for a PCIT. If you want, you can call the two situations Scenario A and Scenario B. One has the container closed and one does not. They both look the same in real time. .. Make It Happen Parachute History DiveMaker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sundevil777 94 #27 January 7, 2006 QuoteThen one day he had a PCIT and cutaway-pulled reserve. The canopies entangled. Quite right, an entanglement can happen in with either procedure. I have read so many times in threads about which is best, and so many people are so sure that cutting away first will prevent an entanglement. They state this conclusion as if it is so obvious. It is discouraging that they can't imagine that the main and risers being pulled past a deploying reserve can also entangle. In every thread on this subject in the past 3 years I have sought to remind them that it is not a settled issue, and to see past their quick assumptions. So many are under the delusion that cutting away first will prevent an entanglement. Of course it does not, the entanglement can happen either way, just differently.People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NelKel 0 #28 January 7, 2006 So many are under the delusion that cutting away first will prevent an entanglement. Of course it does not, the entanglement can happen either way, just differently<<<<<<<< So what you are saying is pull reserve, and then deal with the main if it deploys?_________________________________________ Someone dies, someone says how stupid, someone says it was avoidable, someone says how to avoid it, someone calls them an idiot, someone proposes rule chan Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sundevil777 94 #29 January 7, 2006 I thought I had already posted this in this thread, I was wrong. This summarizes my position: http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=2012622#2012622People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sundevil777 94 #30 January 7, 2006 We should also remember that if the reason for the PC in tow is a uncocked PC, even a pull out system may not have the bag lifted from the container until the reserve deploys, so no difference in that scenario. A pull out system doesn't eliminate the PC in tow.People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Liemberg 0 #31 January 8, 2006 QuoteSo many are under the delusion that cutting away first will prevent an entanglement. Then there are the few of us who are well aware that cutting away first might also lead to an entanglement, yet choose to do so because this simplifies the decision proces AND the odds of no entanglement are slightly better when you cut away first. YMMV "Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci A thousand words... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
base283 0 #33 January 14, 2006 Quote I think maybe you need to reread. I bolded the part that says the container is closed. As I said in the first post of this discussion: "If you can show me a pull-out system that allows the main pilot chute [cocked or uncocked, tangled or untangled] in the airstream without the main pin clearing the closing loop, I'll be happy to debate a new issue." I think you need to reread. It would be a PCIT, with container lock or without. A PCIT is exactly what it says. The PCIT is independent of whether or not the pin is pulled or not according to the quote you stated. And are you (forgive me) so daft to not know that they are writing about throw outs? You suck for taking such a political view to impose your very own definition defying the exact meaning of the term PCIT to justify (maybe?) you jumping a pull out. With great knowledge comes great responsibility. Deal with it. I, Mr. nobody, DISAGREES. Roger, apparently PCIT #1 DISAGREES. How would you explain the scenario where the jumper left the pullup cord in a pullout system that locked the container. See, you are wrong wrong wrong wrong! Quote USPA's recommendation is a recommendation, not a BSR, that you can find in Section 5 of the SIM. So what TLA (Three Letter Abbreviation) does BSR stand for? Is it not a recommendation? For throw outs? Look what I found when I searched their site. (on the attachment). Let me know how it goes. (Your justification) Take care, space Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Freeflysmiley 2 #34 January 16, 2006 Quote*** Bill, I'd disagree...let's call the different malfunction a container lock. If on a pull-out, I have a container lock, I am definitely cutting away, as the bag will almost definitely come out after I pull the reserve (there'll be no pin to hold it in). With a PC in tow on a throw-away, you don't know whether you have a PC in tow, which may well not release the pin, and thus the bag, or a container lock, which will almost definitely do so. To me, pin in or pin out is a very important distinction. That's what I base my reserve procedures on, if the pin's out, I've got something to cut-away... Fine if your sure you've got the TIME to decide whether the pin is in or not and then, change your EP's as a result......-------------------------------------------------- Practise the 6 P's! -------------------------------------------------- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
meatbomb 0 #35 January 20, 2006 QuoteFine if your sure you've got the TIME to decide whether the pin is in or not and then, change your EP's as a result...... This is my exact point. With a pull-out you know whether your pin is out immediately...either you pulled the pin and pilot chute out, or not... To illustrate, my EP tree on pull-out: 1. Reach for pud. 2a. Pull Pud (pin pulled) and throw away PC...anything down this branch is cutaway then reserve... 2b. Can't find pud / can't pull pud (pin not pulled)...anything down this branch is pull reserve only... Sound like I've got TIME to make that decision?--- Swoopert, CS-Aiiiiiii! Piccies Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
