RIGGER 0 #1 December 11, 2005 During the year I saw 3 PR's with Spectra lines that riggers made a loop at the end of the lower steering lines & bartacked the loop. All came from the USA. In all the 3 PR's the Brake to Toggle lines were short by about 1 1/2" !!! 1 1/2" short is far away from PD spec. Doing this process on the PR's is NOT approved by the Mfg. (PD) & there is no need for that. The end of the steering line must be done as it written in the manual with an overhand knot & finger trapped the excess line. The manual gives 2 options for the canopy to ARRIVE from PD !!! With FACTORY made loops, manual page 34 or without loops like it always arrive to us & the process is like in page 35. For Dacron line see page 36. If from any reason a loop must be made like a PR with Dacron line into an ATOM h/c which the reserve toggles does not have grommets & a loop is a must, the rigger on duty MUST call PD & ask for the approval & the drawing to do it right, a 42 stitches center start/stop machine will be needed for the bartack & it's a Master Rigger work. I would like to read riggers feedback. Safe Rigging !!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rigger53 0 #2 December 11, 2005 OK, I'll bite. As a rigger with similar ratings and time in the sport as yourself, when I place a new reserve into service, I make a loop at the manufacturers mark and then sew it, instead of a tieing a knot. As long as the end product is the same length, I really fail to see that it makes any differance at all. Yes I know what it says in the manual, but there is more important things to worry about in rigging than whether a reserve has a knot or a sewn loop in the end. I equally doubt that PD really give a hoot or not which way it is done. Reallistic Rigging!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RIGGER 0 #3 December 11, 2005 I'm not going to open it wide. I saw things done wrong & I wrote my opinion about. PD do give a hoot about their PR's & the way riggers handle them. This is the reason that riggers have the info. in the manual, a rigger must work according the manual & no rigger have the freedom to change the mfg. instructions. Safe Rigging !!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 558 #4 December 11, 2005 QuoteOK, I'll bite. As a rigger with similar ratings and time in the sport as yourself, when I place a new reserve into service, I make a loop at the manufacturers mark and then sew it, instead of a tying a knot. As long as the end product is the same length, I really fail to see that it makes any differance at all. Yes I know what it says in the manual, but there is more important things to worry about in rigging than whether a reserve has a knot or a sewn loop in the end. I equally doubt that PD really give a hoot or not which way it is done. Reallistic Rigging!!! >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Agreed! Steering line length is important, but who cares whether it is knotted or fingertrapped? Several other manufacturers (i.e. Aerodyne and Strong) fingertrap and sew the ends of their reserve steering lines. Why is PD behind the times? If PD is so upset about us fingertrapping and sewing reserve steering lines, maybe they should publish specific finished lengths. Heck! The easiest way would be to sew the damn steering lines at the factory! That would eliminate any mistakes by field riggers. Now is anyone interested in my rant about PISA installing connector links "backwards" on Tempo reserves? Hee! Hee! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hookitt 0 #5 December 11, 2005 QuoteNow is anyone interested in my rant about PISA installing connector links "backwards" on Tempo reserves? Yes. QuoteWhy is PD behind the times? As the Pararescue folks used to tell me. "Don't let progress get in the way of 100 years of tradition." I agree that sewing the loops down is superior. I understand Shlomo's point about implicitly following manufacturers suggestion, but I don't always agree with the manufacturer. I doubt that PD cares that much if a rigger created the loop and sewed it down to the proper length. If it's too short with a sewn loop, then chances are, it would be tied to short as well.My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RIGGER 0 #6 December 11, 2005 I do agree with all of you that sewing loops are better & looks better as well on both spectra & dacron lines. I wish that all reserve lower steering lines will arrive sewn like it came from Aerodyne, Parachutes De France, Strong & on the VR360R from PD/RWS The Factory sewing lines will eliminate rigging errors done by riggers who create loops & do it wrong & it's much more easy to deal with. I asked PD long time ago why the PR's BRK-TOG lines are not factory sewn & I was told that it might be in the future, that is the reason that the manual show it on page 34. My points are: 1. Must be done correctly to match the finished spec. set by mfg. 2. If the rigger likes to perform the loop he must get the spec. from the mfg. & it must be done according the mfg. instructions or approval. Safe Rigging !!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RIGGER 0 #7 December 11, 2005 QuoteI doubt that PD cares that much if a rigger created the loop and sewed it down to the proper length. If it's too short with a sewn loop, then chances are, it would be tied to short as well. Quote PD do care about because it might be done wrong. I do agree that even a knotted line might be set shorter as well but when that is discovered it's easy to open the knot & reset the lines if the excess line is not short. I saw that before & it was easy to reset. When a looped & bartacked line is done wrong, the BRK-TOG lines must be replaced by a Master Rigger with the proper bartack machine. For all of you, please call or mail PD, get the answers & inform us. Safe Rigging !!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites hookitt 0 #8 December 11, 2005 Thanks... that's why I said "proper length" , but I understand what you're saying. I just read the manual and didn't find anything stating a rigger is, or is not, allowed to create a loop and finger trap it. It simply isn't mentioned. When using a knot, it's not a requirement to finger trap the excess line, it's only a recommendation. It's a good recommendation but it's still not required. I hope PD will start making the loop at the factory but until then, I'll make the loop and take my chances with the rigger police. Thanks for sending me the additional information. I appreciate it.My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mark 104 #9 December 11, 2005 QuoteWhen using a knot, it's not a requirement to finger trap the excess line, it's only a recommendation. It's a good recommendation but it's still not required. Fingertrapping the excess brake line shortens the steering line. The effect is less pronounced on smaller Spectra lines (PD reserves), more evident with Dacron (Precision, PISA). The position of the knot or fingertrapped loop must be adjusted accordingly. Even if you are using the knotted-loop method without fingertrapping the excess, you stiil need to check that the finished length is correct because the knot itself shortens the line. Especially on large-diameter line, having the factory mark at the toggle grommet results in a length slightly off. Mark Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jimjumper 25 #10 December 12, 2005 I'm a rigger and understand what you are discussing. For the benefit of the non-riggers and regular jumpers what is a "PR". Not all the people reading know the acronyms of the rigging community! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites hookitt 0 #11 December 12, 2005 PR is PD Reserve H/C is Harness and ContainerMy grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites masterrig 1 #12 December 12, 2005 If, I am not mistaken, for every 6" of finger-trapped line, 1" length over all, is lost. Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites bliston 0 #13 December 21, 2005 Case in point - just got a used reserve that came across the country with "okay" looking trapped and tacked brake lines. Can't unpick the stitching without tearing up the lines, so, I'm left with the call to make to pack it up, send it PD to fix (probably $50 with inspection and shipping) or find a master rigger to replace it. Looks airworthy, so I'll probablly pack it up, but the zig-zag stitches they used (NOT bartacks) are shorter than the PD factory ones... yeah, it's not load bearing on opening and, yeah, I'm probably too anal.... but come on. It's crappy that I'm stuck with even the smallest bit of doubt - that could have been avoided if someone just followed the instructions. It takes me less than five minutes to tie the knots to the proper lengths (so it's snug it the toggle grommet) and trap the line. I guess I'm just saying this: If you're a master rigger and have the right equipment, fine, tack away. But if you're newer to rigging and just have a household machine, take the couple extra minutes to tie the knot and same the next rigger the hassle... BenMass Defiance 4-wayFS website sticks! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites masterrig 1 #14 December 22, 2005 I'm curious. Could it be, that the owner's manual was done-up a long time ago and never changed? Cost reasons? I recall, seeing several older manuals that showed the brake-toggle lines finished-off by knotting them. Just a question. Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites PeteS 0 #15 December 22, 2005 OK, I just did a sample of 1000 lb spectra line cut to 14" with a mark 1" from each end for a 12" "control" sample. I inserted a 6" tail 2" from the center and bartacked with 36 stitch tacker with 46 nylon thread. Shrinkage was right at 1/4" for a joint that is more than ample in strength for the use. Inserting the line after tying a knot will shrink the line above the knot, causing the horrific condition described above. Please be careful or my government will be forced to do unauthorized spying of "suspect" rigging Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites meandean 0 #16 December 22, 2005 If, I am not mistaken, for every 6" of finger-trapped line, 1" length over all, is lost. ---------------------------------------------------------- Doesn't that depend on the diameter of the line? (900 lb dacron vs. 725 lb spectra) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mjosparky 3 #17 December 22, 2005 QuoteThe manual gives 2 3 options for the canopy to ARRIVE from PD !!! With FACTORY made loops, manual page 34 or without loops like it always arrive to us & the process is like in page 35. There I fixed it for you. The third option on page 32. Attach the steering toggles according to the rig manufacturer’s instructions, if they are compatible with the type of steering line used.*** QuoteDoing this process on the PR's is NOT approved by the Mfg. (PD) & there is no need for that. It is not the process that is the problem, it is the finished length. SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites PeteS 0 #18 December 22, 2005 That's right, "Make sure the installation is safe"and "we recommend the following methods". I'm getting a cramp thinking about this too much. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites masterrig 1 #19 December 22, 2005 QuoteIf, I am not mistaken, for every 6" of finger-trapped line, 1" length over all, is lost. ---------------------------------------------------------- Doesn't that depend on the diameter of the line? (900 lb dacron vs. 725 lb spectra) _________________________________________ You bet! My point was that, when finger-trapping, care has to be taken so as to get the proper finished length while allowing for length loss. Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. 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hookitt 0 #8 December 11, 2005 Thanks... that's why I said "proper length" , but I understand what you're saying. I just read the manual and didn't find anything stating a rigger is, or is not, allowed to create a loop and finger trap it. It simply isn't mentioned. When using a knot, it's not a requirement to finger trap the excess line, it's only a recommendation. It's a good recommendation but it's still not required. I hope PD will start making the loop at the factory but until then, I'll make the loop and take my chances with the rigger police. Thanks for sending me the additional information. I appreciate it.My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mark 104 #9 December 11, 2005 QuoteWhen using a knot, it's not a requirement to finger trap the excess line, it's only a recommendation. It's a good recommendation but it's still not required. Fingertrapping the excess brake line shortens the steering line. The effect is less pronounced on smaller Spectra lines (PD reserves), more evident with Dacron (Precision, PISA). The position of the knot or fingertrapped loop must be adjusted accordingly. Even if you are using the knotted-loop method without fingertrapping the excess, you stiil need to check that the finished length is correct because the knot itself shortens the line. Especially on large-diameter line, having the factory mark at the toggle grommet results in a length slightly off. Mark Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jimjumper 25 #10 December 12, 2005 I'm a rigger and understand what you are discussing. For the benefit of the non-riggers and regular jumpers what is a "PR". Not all the people reading know the acronyms of the rigging community! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hookitt 0 #11 December 12, 2005 PR is PD Reserve H/C is Harness and ContainerMy grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterrig 1 #12 December 12, 2005 If, I am not mistaken, for every 6" of finger-trapped line, 1" length over all, is lost. Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bliston 0 #13 December 21, 2005 Case in point - just got a used reserve that came across the country with "okay" looking trapped and tacked brake lines. Can't unpick the stitching without tearing up the lines, so, I'm left with the call to make to pack it up, send it PD to fix (probably $50 with inspection and shipping) or find a master rigger to replace it. Looks airworthy, so I'll probablly pack it up, but the zig-zag stitches they used (NOT bartacks) are shorter than the PD factory ones... yeah, it's not load bearing on opening and, yeah, I'm probably too anal.... but come on. It's crappy that I'm stuck with even the smallest bit of doubt - that could have been avoided if someone just followed the instructions. It takes me less than five minutes to tie the knots to the proper lengths (so it's snug it the toggle grommet) and trap the line. I guess I'm just saying this: If you're a master rigger and have the right equipment, fine, tack away. But if you're newer to rigging and just have a household machine, take the couple extra minutes to tie the knot and same the next rigger the hassle... BenMass Defiance 4-wayFS website sticks! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterrig 1 #14 December 22, 2005 I'm curious. Could it be, that the owner's manual was done-up a long time ago and never changed? Cost reasons? I recall, seeing several older manuals that showed the brake-toggle lines finished-off by knotting them. Just a question. Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PeteS 0 #15 December 22, 2005 OK, I just did a sample of 1000 lb spectra line cut to 14" with a mark 1" from each end for a 12" "control" sample. I inserted a 6" tail 2" from the center and bartacked with 36 stitch tacker with 46 nylon thread. Shrinkage was right at 1/4" for a joint that is more than ample in strength for the use. Inserting the line after tying a knot will shrink the line above the knot, causing the horrific condition described above. Please be careful or my government will be forced to do unauthorized spying of "suspect" rigging Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
meandean 0 #16 December 22, 2005 If, I am not mistaken, for every 6" of finger-trapped line, 1" length over all, is lost. ---------------------------------------------------------- Doesn't that depend on the diameter of the line? (900 lb dacron vs. 725 lb spectra) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 3 #17 December 22, 2005 QuoteThe manual gives 2 3 options for the canopy to ARRIVE from PD !!! With FACTORY made loops, manual page 34 or without loops like it always arrive to us & the process is like in page 35. There I fixed it for you. The third option on page 32. Attach the steering toggles according to the rig manufacturer’s instructions, if they are compatible with the type of steering line used.*** QuoteDoing this process on the PR's is NOT approved by the Mfg. (PD) & there is no need for that. It is not the process that is the problem, it is the finished length. SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PeteS 0 #18 December 22, 2005 That's right, "Make sure the installation is safe"and "we recommend the following methods". I'm getting a cramp thinking about this too much. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterrig 1 #19 December 22, 2005 QuoteIf, I am not mistaken, for every 6" of finger-trapped line, 1" length over all, is lost. ---------------------------------------------------------- Doesn't that depend on the diameter of the line? (900 lb dacron vs. 725 lb spectra) _________________________________________ You bet! My point was that, when finger-trapping, care has to be taken so as to get the proper finished length while allowing for length loss. Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
