Canopy performance

[Mostly_Harmless 0]

Currently I am flying a 2001 Sabre 170 with less then 150 jumps on it. Since I am still new to the sport I am not in a rush to D/S but I would like a bit more performance out of my canopy. For example: I can not get the 170 to dive on front risers, no matter how much I pull down on them it will not turn. Would a Fusion/Sabre2 semi-elliptical canopy give me slight more performance then my current sabre? Also is there a big different in flying a 170 Fusion/Sabre2 compared to a Nitron/Stilletto at the same size? Thanks in advance for your input.

_________________________________________
www.myspace.com/termvelocity

[bob.dino 0]

What's your wingloading on that 170?* Are you pulling your slider down behind your head? Are you loosening your chest-strap after opening?

It sounds odd that you can't get it to dive using front risers - I know plenty of people that do front riser approaches on Sabres at modest wingloadings. It might be worth seeking some canopy coaching. It's a lot cheaper than a new canopy

* edit 'coz I R idiot. Thanks rweider!

[billvon 2,435]

>but I would like a bit more performance out of my canopy.

Some suggestions:

1. Collapse your slider and pull it down. (Learn how before though!)
2. Loosen your chest strap.
3. Make sure your brake lines are long enough that you can pull full front riser without deflecting your tail at all.
4. Make sure you are using a collapsible PC and it is trimmed correctly.
5. Check your canopy's trim. Even at 150 jumps a canopy can get out of trim if it's been mistreated.

>I can not get the 170 to dive on front risers, no matter how much I
>pull down on them it will not turn.

Something's wrong then. Check your brake line length.

[rwieder 0]

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What's your wingloading on that 170?

See the info below from his profile. I can see how the 1.12:1 W.L. is getting boring, but i think he needs to bore himself some more.

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Container: Vector III
Main Canopy: Sabre 170 ft² (1.12 lbs/ft²)
Reserve Canopy: PD Reserve 160 ft² (1.19lbs/ft²)
AAD: Vigil

-Richard-
"You're Holding The Rope And I'm Taking The Fall"

[Mostly_Harmless 0]

Thanks guys for the advice. Billvon: What is so different from collasping the slider to putting it behind your head? I would think that putting it behind your head does the same thing as collapsing it. Next weekend (weather permitting) I will take your check list with me and go through all of it.

_________________________________________
www.myspace.com/termvelocity

[Mostly_Harmless 0]

rwieder: By saying you think I should bore myself some more you mean I shouldn't consider downsizing anytime soon?

_________________________________________
www.myspace.com/termvelocity

[bob.dino 0]

Collapsing the slider (by pulling the drawstrings in it) means it creates less drag and doesn't make a very irritating de-flappida-flappida sound.

Pulling the slider down the risers and putting it behind your head allows the risers to spread apart, the canopy to become a flatter wing, and consequently fly better. Loosening the chest strap accomplishes the same thing, but it pointless unless you've brought the slider down.

Ask an instructor or canopy pilot to show+talk you through it at the DZ... it'll become obvious then.

Oh, and Brian Germain's The Parachute And Its Pilot comes highly recommended.

[Mostly_Harmless 0]

Thanks bob.dino!

_________________________________________
www.myspace.com/termvelocity

[FrogNog 1]

Out of Sabre2, Hornet, Triathlon, and Sabre - all 190 square feet - for me the Sabre blew the others away for front-riser turns. (And flare.)

I loved how the Sabre front-riser turns / dives so much I would own one if I weren't afraid one day it would open hard and hurt me.

So I hope you can get your situation sorted out; your canopy should be fun.

-=-=-=-=-
Pull.

[billvon 2,435]

>What is so different from collasping the slider to putting it behind your head?

Lets the risers spread out more.

Note - you probably know this, but never let go of the brakes when you are playing with rear risers. If the tail gets deflected when your hands are in the brakes and you pull on front risers, lengthen the brake lines.

[Travman 6]

I have a Sabre 170, loaded at a shade over 1:1 and I can get it to dive on front riser turns. The sabre generates a lot of its left at the front of the canopy which makes the front risers harder to pull down. Are your break lines long enough?

[piisfish 135]

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Are your break lines long enough?

do you mean brake and not break ??

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[jakee 1,260]

Definitely pull the slider behind your head, my sabre 150 has felt like a totally different canopy since I started doing it. Lighter pressure on all the control inputs and way more divey. Lots of fun to play with

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[bob.dino 0]

Maybe after the canopy completes its recovery arch he's planning on using his breaks to complete his flair?


(Sorry Travis, had to! It's the pedant in me .)

[Mostly_Harmless 0]

So when I am under canopy next time I should pull the front riser down and look up to see if the tail is deflecting, that will telle me if my brakes are incorrect? When putting the slider behind your head you need to install a band back there to hold it? Also does the slider come past your risers (sorry just trying to visualize it)

_________________________________________
www.myspace.com/termvelocity

[tdog 0]

Mostly_harmless,

Have you taken a canopy control class??? You will find your instructor will video your landings and will notice all sorts of things...

I took the class when I had about as many jumps as you, and I learned a LOT!!!

What you learn will give you a bunch of things to practice that will keep you from getting bored. Also, your instructor will watch/video your skill dives and notice trim issues if you have any with your current canopy...

T.

[Mostly_Harmless 0]

tdog:
I have heard about these classes but haven't gotten the chance to go anywhere to actually take them. If they have it at a dropzone close to me one of these days I am definitely going to take it.

_________________________________________
www.myspace.com/termvelocity

[livendive 8]

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the Sabre blew the others away for front-riser turns. (And flare.)

FYI - I have always advised against front-riser flares. Those are for experts only!

For the original poster, do you mean no matter how much pressure you put on the front riser it won't turn, or no matter how much you actually pull the riser down it won't turn?

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[Mostly_Harmless 0]

How much I actually pull it down. My original risers didn't have front dive loops to grab on to, so it was a bit tough on my hands to pull it down all that much. But now I have brand new RWS risers with the loops and when I pull one side down the canopy will only turn ever so slightly but nothing I would call a dive.

_________________________________________
www.myspace.com/termvelocity

[Mostly_Harmless 0]

Without being flamed to death: is D/Sing to a 150 Sabre2 w/ a w/l of 1.26 be a bad idea for my experience level?

_________________________________________
www.myspace.com/termvelocity

[livendive 8]

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Without being flamed to death: is D/Sing to a 150 Sabre2 w/ a w/l of 1.26 be a bad idea for my experience level?

That's a question best answered by instructors and other competent, experienced jumpers who've actually seen you jump. I'd almost always advise against such a step at 74 jumps, even if it is somewhat hypocritical (I was loading a Triathlon 175 at about 1.3:1 at 50 some-odd jumps...but got lucky and didn't seriously injury myself.)

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[billvon 2,435]

>So when I am under canopy next time I should pull the front riser
>down and look up to see if the tail is deflecting, that will telle me if
> my brakes are incorrect?

Try this:

With the brakes in your hands, put your hands halfway down your front riser without pulling anything. Look at the tail. The tail should not be deflected and there should still be a little bit of bow in the brake lines. If not, lengthening them might be a good idea. Warning - this will make the flare deeper; make sure you are prepared for this.

>When putting the slider behind your head you need to install a band
>back there to hold it?

Generally no. Collapse it and pull it down behind your head; it will generally stay there near your neck. If it keeps blowing back up, there are devices that will hold it there. Devices that attach the slider to you are somewhat risky; I know of one jumper who was killed when he gave himself line twist and could not cut away because his slider was attached to his jumpsuit. There are also riser mods that will hold a slider down. Usually just pulling it down is enough though. Works for me.

>Also does the slider come past your risers (sorry just trying to visualize it)

Well, it can't come _past_ your risers unless you remove it altogether (which some swoopers do.) In general it comes down past your brakes and sits near the 3-rings.

[Mostly_Harmless 0]

Livendive:
Thanks, will ask them.

Billvon:
I never realized that it might cause a problem after the slider is stowed if a cutaway would be needed. I just asked bacause I see a bunch of guys with bands on the top of there reserve flaps where is looks like the stow it. But I will try all of that. thanks again.

_________________________________________
www.myspace.com/termvelocity

[davelepka 4]

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Without being flamed to death: is D/Sing to a 150 Sabre2 w/ a w/l of 1.26 be a bad idea for my experience level

What is your experience level? How many jumps do have on your current canopy? What other canopies have you jumped, and how many jumps have you put on them?


Also, why are you in such a need for front riser performance? Have you exhausted the other capabilities of your canopy? To the point that you are ready for a smaller canopy? What would you be doing with the 'improved' front riser performance of the smaller canopy anyways?

[rwieder 0]

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rwieder: By saying you think I should bore myself some more you mean I shouldn't consider downsizing anytime soon?

That's exactly what i'm saying. I know what it's like to "drag a wagon" because of light wing loading. I transformed from a Sabre1 280 - Sabre1 230 - Triathlon 210 - Triathlon 190 - Hornet 170 (Best damned canopy i've ever owned) Cobalt 170 (Worst canopy i've ever owned) HeatWave 170 (2nd best canopy i've ever owned) To my current and best canopy i've ever owned an Icarus CrossFire2 169. I will stay with the 169 because there is no need for me to "Go Smaller" since i have no desire to compete or be a "Swoop God" If you want to know how a higher wing load would feel, try a weight vest first with your current canopy. (Be sure to ask your S&TA for their advice before you do this)

"Every man has got to know his limitations" Be in touch with the fact you are mortal. And do not be in a hurry to down size. When and if you do down size, have a reason other than vanity for doing it. One mistake at a higher wing loading, you'll be in the incident reports. Don't be that guy. I've lost 2 friends to sky diving accidents since i made my first tandem and went through the now antiquated AFP program. Both guys made low turns at too high of a wing load. Not to say a lighter wing load would have saved them, but they would have had a way better chance of survival.

What ever you do, make a wise and informed choice and seek the advice of your S&TA at your DZ, and others who have watched you land your canopy. Don't make the decision to down size because you are bored with your current canopy. (I've been there, done that) Good Luck, Be Safe.

-Richard-
"You're Holding The Rope And I'm Taking The Fall"