RIGGER 0 #1 October 22, 2005 I wonder how many Riggers perform the PD 30 Lb. fabric pull test according the PR manual ONCE a Year and how many Riggers mark the boxes at each repack / or after deployment X. I saw PR's that on the card never was written Passed the fabric pull test and I saw PR's that the Canopy history on the lable was not marked. like PR with 17 repacks & 4 deployment & only 3 repacks and 1 deployment was marked on the lable. The test & the marking system is for the SAFETY of the user & no one have the rights to skip it. Safe Rigging !!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #2 October 22, 2005 Quotethe PD 30 Lb. fabric pull test according the PR manual ONCE a Year and The manual says 'should', not 'must'. Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggermick 6 #3 October 22, 2005 The manual says 'should', not 'must'. To quote Rudyard Kipling: "and hereby the ditty hangs. Those of you that know kiplings verse will understand the reference. Mick. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RIGGER 0 #4 October 23, 2005 Yes, I know the manual says "Should" but when I checked that with PD in the past The answer was that the 30 lb. fabric pull test is a MANDATORY test to be done once a year according the manual. PD manual also says that any discolored or stained areas on the fabric MUST be pull tested. Marking the boxes is also MANDATORY by PD & there are riggers who "Skip" or "Forgot" or try to "Save" for the owner the "Value" of the PR & by doing that they effect the SAFETY of the user. 40 repacks & 25 jumps are the limit of a PR before sent back to PD for recertification. Think Twice !!! Safe Rigging !!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bliston 0 #5 October 23, 2005 I've always been told, "if it's not in writting from the manufacturer, you don't really have permission to do it." It's gotta work both ways. What, is every rigger supposed to call every manufacturer and get the REAL regulations verbally? Current on-line info states that the canopy label updates are mandatory and if there is a descrepancy the rigger should update the canopy so that it reflects info on the card. Current language for the fabric testing is "should." If they want it to be mandatory, they "should" change the manual. BenMass Defiance 4-wayFS website sticks! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RIGGER 0 #6 October 23, 2005 "Should" could be "Do it" & it could be "You can but it is not a must". That was the reason I asked PD & I was told MANDATORY !!! Look at the old PR manual 06/1995 page 12: "Check the fabric strength by using ..." CHECK is an ORDER means DO IT !!! we did it on every repack until the new manual said ANNUAL TEST. As a Rigger if you have a "Grey" area e-mail PD & ask for the mfg. answer & inform us here. Safe Rigging !!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #7 October 23, 2005 That is not what I was told when I asked PD. Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kosanke 0 #8 October 23, 2005 i'm looking at PD's manual and no where do i see a mandatory pull checks once a year. on page 11 there is a list of requirements that must be performed if the following events occur. water, 25 jumps, 40 repacks, unknown history, substandard flight or belief fabric exceeds factory specs. am i missing something? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tonto 1 #9 October 23, 2005 Our repack cycle here is 180 days, and our reserve life is 20 years. So far, both my PD reserves are headed for 20 year life times - but I'll sell them for new gear within a year or two anyway. tIt's the year of the Pig. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RIGGER 0 #10 October 23, 2005 *** i'm looking at PD's manual and no where do i see a mandatory pull checks once a year. on page 11 there is a list of requirements that must be performed if the following events occur. water, 25 jumps, 40 repacks, unknown history, substandard flight or belief fabric exceeds factory specs. am i missing something? Quote You looked at the old manual (1995) on page 11, look at page 12 - "Check the fabric ..." In the NEW PR manual (2002) page 25 "Fabric Testing" you will read about the annually 30 lb. pull test & more. Safe Rigging !!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mjosparky 3 #11 November 29, 2005 Quote"Should" could be "Do it" & it could be "You can but it is not a must". Could be, should be, would be. You can come up with any number of “what if’s”. The fact remains that the manual says, “should" when dealing with fabric testing. Should is not “must” or “mandatory". From “PD Series Ram-Air Reserve Parachute Owners Manual” Page 3 CANOPY PACKING / DEPLOYMENT LOG As any conventional ram air reserve is repeatedly handled and repacked, the fabric permeability will increase. This increased permeability will affect opening, flight and/or landing characteristics. To monitor this important issue, we have incorporated a tracking and inspection program into our reserve canopies. Compliance with this program is mandatory. Each time the reserve is inspected and packed, a single diagonal line \ is to be placed in the next open box on the label. In the event of an actual deployment, an X is to be placed in the next available box. This is "mandatory" and "must" be done. Page 25 FABRIC TESTING STRENGTH Fabric testing should be done annually (at the appropriate repack cycle), however it is not necessary to test the fabric before the first pack job if the parachute is within one year of the date of manufacture. This is not "mandatory" but "should" be done. Page 26 Fabric permeability must be tested if any of the following events occur: _ 25 jumps have been made on the canopy since it was new or last certified. _ The canopy has been repacked 40 times since it was new. _ The canopy has an unknown number of jumps, repacks, or there is reason to believe that jumps or repacks were not properly logged. _ Flight performance appears to be substandard. _ There are other reasons to believe the fabric permeability may exceed specifications. This is "mantatory" and "must" be done. While I agree with you that the pull test should be done, the manual should be taken just how it is written, not what you think it should mean. Since they used the terms "mandatory" and "must" in the same document is seems to me that they were aware of their meaning and used them only where they meant "mandatory" or "must". SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites RIGGER 0 #12 November 30, 2005 I checked again with PD & the answer I got again is that the 30 lb. annual fabric pull test is MANDATORY !!! You can call PD & ask too. Safe Rigging !!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Hooknswoop 19 #13 November 30, 2005 If it is mandatory, they should issue a change to their manual...... Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mjosparky 3 #14 December 1, 2005 QuoteI checked again with PD & the answer I got again is that the 30 lb. annual fabric pull test is MANDATORY !!! You can call PD & ask too. Safe Rigging !!! Is that MANDATORY just for those riggers that call and ask? All the rest of the riggers in the world are left to follow what is in the Manufactures Instructions. Do you think that might be the reason they require the following: From TSO-C23d (2) The manufacturer must furnish to the user of the article one copy of the data and information specified in paragraphs c(l)(ii) and c(l)(v). This data and information is necessary for proper installation and use and for continued airworthiness of the product or article. (ii) Operating instructions and limitations, to include donning, retention, adjustment, and deployment. (v) Detailed maintenance instructions, including specific guidance on the limits of wear and damage permissible to webbing material that would warrant replacement. It doesn't say anything about phone calls. SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites RIGGER 0 #15 December 1, 2005 Yes, they should. Safe Rigging !!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites masterrig 1 #16 December 1, 2005 The way I feel about it, for what it's worth. If, the manufacturer's instructions say 'must' do something... I do it. When the manufacturer's instructions say 'should' do something, I just go ahead and do it. Simply because, the manufacturer probably has a good reason for having something done even though they didn't say 'must'. Many of the 'should' do things have just become part of my repetoire. So far, I haven't seen any ill effects from my practices. Also, for manufacturer's to go-back and re-write instructions and get them printed and distributed to riggers can be rather costly. I've been of the understanding that, they don't really mind when riggers call and ask questions. JMO Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites peckerhead 0 #17 December 2, 2005 While we are on this topic..... Why is it the other canopy makers don't have check-off boxes or should/must pull tests? I have heard from many jumpers that they will not buy PD reserves because of this. It gives an implied shelf-life regardless of air-worthy-ness. I have also heard stories of bribes being offered to riggers to not "check" the box on PD reserves so the reserve will have not lost it's re-sale value. (less checks=more$) I am not condoning this, I always go by the book. If I pack a PD reserve I check the box, X if it has been jumped. But I do not have to do this if it is a Para-flite reserve or an older round reserve that is air-worthy. That is up to me. Again, I ALWAYS go by the manufacturers recommendations and follow the instructions. But, there are no check-off boxes on round reserves or any non-PD squares. HMMMM? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites RIGGER 0 #18 December 3, 2005 There are few reserve mfg. that put packing & deployments limits for the reserve they mfg. The mfg. are not saying the canopy is out of service, they says that the canopy must be return to the mfg. for general inspection including "Permeability" test. PD was the first mfg. which start with the marking box system & it works well. PD does so many R&D, tests & home work & they can be trusted !!! The mfg. are: PD - 40 repacks or 25 deployments & have marking boxes. Aerodyne "Smart R" - 20 repacks & 10 deployments. No marking boxes. Free Flight Ent. "Amigo R" 5 deployments. Parachutes De France "Techno R" - 40 repacks or 25 deployments. No marking boxes. Parachute Systems "Decelerator R" 40 repacks or 25 deployments. Have marking boxes. RWS VR360 Tandem Reserve mfg. by PD - 40 repacks or 25 deployments. Have marking boxes. There is a reason for that, the "Permeability" of the 0-3 cfpm fabric used in the mfg. of the reserve canopies is effected from handling/packing & deployments. There is a cfpm "Safety Limit" line which will insure that your reserve canopy will perform SAFE from deployment to landing. A reserve canopy which the fabric Permeability is out of spec. is NOT Airworthy anymore !!! The other mfg. that do not put any limit on the reserves canopies has their reasons for that, they do not have "Magic" in the fabric & the 0-3 cfpm fabric is effected at the same way PD's fabric does. Skydivers not buying PD reserves because of the Safety Boxes reasons are totally wrong !!! Not marking the boxes by the riggers is a violation of the canopy's TSO & the mfg. manual & the FAR's. The riggers by not doing that creates a SAFETY ISSUE for the skydivers they serve. Did you ever thought that not marking the boxes is maybe because the specific rigger never was at that area ??? If any skydiver pays his rigger Extra for NOT marking he is risking himself & the next user & put his rigger in a big trouble as well. Service life of parachuting systems is an issue for a long time, most feel that 20 years is the limit. Reserve canopies might move out before that because of the Permeability Safety Factor. I hope that helps. Safe Rigging !!! 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mjosparky 3 #11 November 29, 2005 Quote"Should" could be "Do it" & it could be "You can but it is not a must". Could be, should be, would be. You can come up with any number of “what if’s”. The fact remains that the manual says, “should" when dealing with fabric testing. Should is not “must” or “mandatory". From “PD Series Ram-Air Reserve Parachute Owners Manual” Page 3 CANOPY PACKING / DEPLOYMENT LOG As any conventional ram air reserve is repeatedly handled and repacked, the fabric permeability will increase. This increased permeability will affect opening, flight and/or landing characteristics. To monitor this important issue, we have incorporated a tracking and inspection program into our reserve canopies. Compliance with this program is mandatory. Each time the reserve is inspected and packed, a single diagonal line \ is to be placed in the next open box on the label. In the event of an actual deployment, an X is to be placed in the next available box. This is "mandatory" and "must" be done. Page 25 FABRIC TESTING STRENGTH Fabric testing should be done annually (at the appropriate repack cycle), however it is not necessary to test the fabric before the first pack job if the parachute is within one year of the date of manufacture. This is not "mandatory" but "should" be done. Page 26 Fabric permeability must be tested if any of the following events occur: _ 25 jumps have been made on the canopy since it was new or last certified. _ The canopy has been repacked 40 times since it was new. _ The canopy has an unknown number of jumps, repacks, or there is reason to believe that jumps or repacks were not properly logged. _ Flight performance appears to be substandard. _ There are other reasons to believe the fabric permeability may exceed specifications. This is "mantatory" and "must" be done. While I agree with you that the pull test should be done, the manual should be taken just how it is written, not what you think it should mean. Since they used the terms "mandatory" and "must" in the same document is seems to me that they were aware of their meaning and used them only where they meant "mandatory" or "must". SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RIGGER 0 #12 November 30, 2005 I checked again with PD & the answer I got again is that the 30 lb. annual fabric pull test is MANDATORY !!! You can call PD & ask too. Safe Rigging !!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #13 November 30, 2005 If it is mandatory, they should issue a change to their manual...... Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 3 #14 December 1, 2005 QuoteI checked again with PD & the answer I got again is that the 30 lb. annual fabric pull test is MANDATORY !!! You can call PD & ask too. Safe Rigging !!! Is that MANDATORY just for those riggers that call and ask? All the rest of the riggers in the world are left to follow what is in the Manufactures Instructions. Do you think that might be the reason they require the following: From TSO-C23d (2) The manufacturer must furnish to the user of the article one copy of the data and information specified in paragraphs c(l)(ii) and c(l)(v). This data and information is necessary for proper installation and use and for continued airworthiness of the product or article. (ii) Operating instructions and limitations, to include donning, retention, adjustment, and deployment. (v) Detailed maintenance instructions, including specific guidance on the limits of wear and damage permissible to webbing material that would warrant replacement. It doesn't say anything about phone calls. SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RIGGER 0 #15 December 1, 2005 Yes, they should. Safe Rigging !!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterrig 1 #16 December 1, 2005 The way I feel about it, for what it's worth. If, the manufacturer's instructions say 'must' do something... I do it. When the manufacturer's instructions say 'should' do something, I just go ahead and do it. Simply because, the manufacturer probably has a good reason for having something done even though they didn't say 'must'. Many of the 'should' do things have just become part of my repetoire. So far, I haven't seen any ill effects from my practices. Also, for manufacturer's to go-back and re-write instructions and get them printed and distributed to riggers can be rather costly. I've been of the understanding that, they don't really mind when riggers call and ask questions. JMO Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
peckerhead 0 #17 December 2, 2005 While we are on this topic..... Why is it the other canopy makers don't have check-off boxes or should/must pull tests? I have heard from many jumpers that they will not buy PD reserves because of this. It gives an implied shelf-life regardless of air-worthy-ness. I have also heard stories of bribes being offered to riggers to not "check" the box on PD reserves so the reserve will have not lost it's re-sale value. (less checks=more$) I am not condoning this, I always go by the book. If I pack a PD reserve I check the box, X if it has been jumped. But I do not have to do this if it is a Para-flite reserve or an older round reserve that is air-worthy. That is up to me. Again, I ALWAYS go by the manufacturers recommendations and follow the instructions. But, there are no check-off boxes on round reserves or any non-PD squares. HMMMM? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RIGGER 0 #18 December 3, 2005 There are few reserve mfg. that put packing & deployments limits for the reserve they mfg. The mfg. are not saying the canopy is out of service, they says that the canopy must be return to the mfg. for general inspection including "Permeability" test. PD was the first mfg. which start with the marking box system & it works well. PD does so many R&D, tests & home work & they can be trusted !!! The mfg. are: PD - 40 repacks or 25 deployments & have marking boxes. Aerodyne "Smart R" - 20 repacks & 10 deployments. No marking boxes. Free Flight Ent. "Amigo R" 5 deployments. Parachutes De France "Techno R" - 40 repacks or 25 deployments. No marking boxes. Parachute Systems "Decelerator R" 40 repacks or 25 deployments. Have marking boxes. RWS VR360 Tandem Reserve mfg. by PD - 40 repacks or 25 deployments. Have marking boxes. There is a reason for that, the "Permeability" of the 0-3 cfpm fabric used in the mfg. of the reserve canopies is effected from handling/packing & deployments. There is a cfpm "Safety Limit" line which will insure that your reserve canopy will perform SAFE from deployment to landing. A reserve canopy which the fabric Permeability is out of spec. is NOT Airworthy anymore !!! The other mfg. that do not put any limit on the reserves canopies has their reasons for that, they do not have "Magic" in the fabric & the 0-3 cfpm fabric is effected at the same way PD's fabric does. Skydivers not buying PD reserves because of the Safety Boxes reasons are totally wrong !!! Not marking the boxes by the riggers is a violation of the canopy's TSO & the mfg. manual & the FAR's. The riggers by not doing that creates a SAFETY ISSUE for the skydivers they serve. Did you ever thought that not marking the boxes is maybe because the specific rigger never was at that area ??? If any skydiver pays his rigger Extra for NOT marking he is risking himself & the next user & put his rigger in a big trouble as well. Service life of parachuting systems is an issue for a long time, most feel that 20 years is the limit. Reserve canopies might move out before that because of the Permeability Safety Factor. I hope that helps. Safe Rigging !!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
