popsjumper 2 #1 September 12, 2005 I don't know if I can explain this well enough to give you the visual but.... We had a cutaway and found the canopy with the following issues... 1. Right-side toggle pulled through the retainer ring 2. Left-side toggle stowed. 3. Left-side riser connected backwards (Rear riser connected to A and B lines, Front with C and D lines, Steering line connected to toggle with overhand knots) This was a new canopy and was set up by a rigger. Young jumper had two succesful landings prior to the cutaway jump where the canopy opened in a left-hand spin. Other than the obvious, I'm confused on how this could have happend.....WTF?My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sid 1 #2 September 12, 2005 Quote This was a new canopy and was set up by a rigger. ................... Other than the obvious, I'm confused on how this could have happend.....WTF? Just because someone has a rating doesn't make them good. I know a bunch of people with rigger ratings that I wouldn't let pack my main (and I'll pretty much let anyone pack my main ) - however, are you certain that the jumper didn't fuck with it himself, because I've had people install their own slinks incorrectly, with no continuity checks and even had someone remove the velcro from their risers with a steak knife "Hell I don't need a rigger for that" - and severly damage the integrity of the riser.......Pete Draper, Just because my life plan is written on the back of a Hooter's Napkin, it's still a life plan.... right? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mr2mk1g 10 #3 September 12, 2005 Should have been picked up by the rigger when mis-rigging it. Should have been picked up by the jumper when packing it. Someone needs to speak to both of them (assuming nothing else has gone on to explain things). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #4 September 12, 2005 Ooooo...since the jumper named the rigger, I had assumed that the rigger actually did the work, but the jumper screwing with it could have happened I suppose. I will discuss that in depth with the jumper next week when I see him. Given the set-up, I can't believe that any rigger would make those mistakes all on the same rig - thus, the confusion. ...and anger I might add...this particular rigger is one known to me and only minimally trusted by me which ticks me off (at myself) because I let him pack a reserve once when I couldn't/didn't wait for my well-trusted rigger to get back into town. (I did have it re-done by my own rigger when he came back - the expense was well worth the peace of mind.) Thanks, Sid.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
councilman24 36 #5 September 12, 2005 Need more info on #1. This is a physical impossibility if assembled right and not damaged, AND the gear is compatible. Years ago we used larger guide rings and larger toggles. Was all this NEW gear or old risers and new canopy? Will the toggle FIT through the guide ring? If not it wasn't pulled through, the line never went through it. It is possible to lock a break without the line going through the ring but it takes some ingenuity. If there is a toggle keeper see if it is intact. I've know people to put the toggle through the loop but ABOVE the ring instead of below it. Then stick the nose in the keeper. Keeper usually blows out. #2. It's supposed to be stowed if the jumper didn't unstow it. Why is this an issue?Sure it was spinning left. One brake was set and one was released. Releasing the left brake may have eliminated the need for a cutaway. BUT, I am not critisizing the decision. #3. The rigger screwed up and then didn't check his work. And the jumper didn't check the canopy properly when first jumping it. Not that it's the jumper's fault it was wrong. But the error should have been seen under canopy the first time and also caught while being repacked.I'm old for my age. Terry Urban D-8631 FAA DPRE Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lowpull 0 #6 September 12, 2005 hey, you let ME pack your main!! Wait, come to think about it, I helped teach you how to pack your main!! Whats up little brother, and oh yeah, greetings from the armpit of the universe (Iraq) Ralph Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #7 September 12, 2005 Sorry Councilman...#2 was not an issue...I included it just FYI only and to imply that it was routed correctly and there was no problem with it other than the overhand knots. As for #1, thanks for the input...some of which is obvious but needed to be pointed out anyway. The keeper was fine. I didn't think to actually check to see if teh toggle would go through the retainer ring - I assumed that it was installed correctly in the firstplace...I will go back and test that. As for #3, Agreed on all counts and the jumper will be made to re-address all of that - all part of the learning and re-learning process for him and the rest of us, too.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 562 #8 September 12, 2005 Just because someone has a rating doesn't make them good. I know a bunch of people with rigger ratings that I wouldn't let pack my main >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I know several people with rigger ratings who ask me to repack their reserves. Hee! Hee! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sid 1 #9 September 12, 2005 Quotehey, you let ME pack your main!! Wait, come to think about it, I helped teach you how to pack your main!! Whats up little brother, and oh yeah, greetings from the armpit of the universe (Iraq) Ralph Like I said "hero o'mine" I'll let anyone pack my main damn it's good to know you're still alive!!!!!!!!!!! And yes folks, Ralph did teach me to pack, along with Tim "Looks good - stick it in the bag" Webb!Pete Draper, Just because my life plan is written on the back of a Hooter's Napkin, it's still a life plan.... right? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Elisha 1 #10 September 12, 2005 I bought my rig from the DZO - one of his rentals. It has metal links w/ bumbers and a velcro "collapsible" slider (I put quotes since the one piece of velcro doesn't collapse it as well as two drawstrings). Since I could just barely reach the slider, I asked for shorter risers. He gave me another pair that were like a whole inch shorter. He said that he could replace them if I couldn't figure out how to replace them and also what would happen if I switched them. Well, I take the rig home, open the container and lay it out. I disconnect the risers rather carefully and replace them. On the left side, even though I though I was careful, I THOUGHT that I may have switched the sides (A&Bs to C&Ds), and so I switched them. I was all worried about it until my next jump. On that jump, my opening is fine, I do my canopy control checks and glance to the left and see the the left rear and front have criss-crossed. The canopy flew fine, behaving just like the DZO said it would and I got some pliers after I landed and had a packer fix it (since it would be more daunting for me to do it at the time). Now, if I had installed the riser to the container backwards, I'm told that the canopy would've flown backward! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
justinb138 0 #11 September 12, 2005 No one checked it before you jumped it? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #12 September 12, 2005 here's a pic http://www.skydivemonroe.com/picture_gallery/albums/userpics/10059/normal_IMG_4654.jpg The right-side toggle was simply stuck to the velcro to show it's locationMy reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Elisha 1 #13 September 12, 2005 Quotehere's a pic http://www.skydivemonroe.com/picture_gallery/albums/userpics/10059/normal_IMG_4654.jpg The right-side toggle was simply stuck to the velcro to show it's location I think that is different that what I did, or at least from the way you are holding it in the picture. From the way you are holding it in the picture, it looks like the left side was connected to the large ring on the container backwards. My was connected right to the container, but backwards to the lines, causing the front and rear to cross each other on opening. It was hard for me tell tell on your phot at first, since it looks like your toggles are red and dive loops on the front riser are black, while on my risers the brake toggles are yellow and the dive loops red. Justinb, No, I didn't ASK anyone to check MY bad job of changing the risers. My first jump after changing them (I had previously jumped this rig at the DZ as a rental before buying) was at another DZ at a boogie. It's my rig, and thus my responsibility. I chalk it up to anxiousness to jump at the time and my lower confidence in my packing ability (I didn't take the main out of the bag while changing the risers to see if it was correct). If it were now, I wouldn't be so lazy to take the main out of the d-bag to test it if I was unsure. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wuffo 1 #14 September 12, 2005 I see a lot of skydivers and even riggers that, from watching them go about the simplest of tasks like putting a canopy on risers and/or checking to see if a canopy is on risers correctly to trying to figure out how to straighten out a canopy with a step-through, etc., that simply don't know what they're even looking at! It's all about seeing "the picture" and it's not rocket science. I think many times people try to make something hard out of something easy! The idea of jumping out of an airplane and not understanding how the gear works or knowing with first-hand knowledge that your gear is assembled properly and in good working order to me is not even comprehensible! Folks, every skydiver should understand these things or take up friggin' bowling. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #15 September 12, 2005 Elsiha... yep, toggles are red and dive loops on the front riser are black. Also the chute hanging in the background is nose down. You can see suspension line routing and the reversal of the left riser. Wuffo... my thoughts exactly...how could this have happened other than incompetence or total carelessness...I don't get it.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
darkwing 4 #16 September 13, 2005 Seeing a toggle that appears to have been pulled through the retaining ring would ordinarily make me think it was never routed through the ring in the first place. check the grommet and see if it will fit through the ring. I have seen guys jump with the steering line only routed through the slider grommet. Look for damage on the toggle tongue keeper. That also gets damaged if the cats eye is above the ring on an otherwise properly rigged toggle. -- Jeff My Skydiving History Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jurgencamps 0 #17 September 13, 2005 Be careful if you accuse somebody. 1 or 2 years ago a skydiver "packed" his own reserve and forged the signature of his rigger. Another rigger who repacked the reserve, saw some serious mistakes and contacted the rigger in question. They found then that the skydiver himself messed with the reserve and had forged the signature. The rigger who did the last repack, has posted it here at dropzone.com. So if you accuse the rigger, be sure that it wasn't the skydiver (or a friend) , but the rigger who has made the mistake. Jurgen Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #18 September 13, 2005 You are correct of course but no accusation of any rigger was made...the jumper could have "re-done" his work as was noted earlier, thus the incompetence/carelessness. The jumper states that a rigger did the work. Truth? Fiction? Hey that brings up a related question....say the rigger did some work and logged it and later the owner messed with it....how in the heck would the rigger protect himself from that? Rigger says he connected things properly, owner says not...My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterrig 1 #19 September 13, 2005 QuoteYou are correct of course but no accusation of any rigger was made...the jumper could have "re-done" his work as was noted earlier, thus the incompetence/carelessness. The jumper states that a rigger did the work. Truth? Fiction? Hey that brings up a related question....say the rigger did some work and logged it and later the owner messed with it....how in the heck would the rigger protect himself from that? Rigger says he connected things properly, owner says not... ______________________________________ I've had that very thing, happen to me. It's a very awkward situation. After that 'situation', the guy brought his rig for me to I&R. I refused it! I did tell him that, I wasn't going to ever do work on his gear again. If, he was going to do something to his gear 'after' I worked on it then, try to pass it off on me... I didn't need it. Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AndyMan 7 #20 September 13, 2005 Quote Young jumper had two succesful landings prior to the cutaway jump where the canopy opened in a left-hand spin. In addition to how it happened, I'm very curious how it managed to be repacked twice without noticing these errors. In fact, I'd go so far as to seriously question the packing competence of whoever repacked the main and didn't notice the problems. #1 and #3 are both obvious rigging errors that should be caught by a simple '3-line check' that every jumper does when they run the lines. I'm not sure I understand #2. I hope that what's happened here is that the jumper himself was playing with his gear and screwed it up, then repacked it himself. _Am__ You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterrig 1 #21 September 13, 2005 #1 and #3 are both obvious rigging errors that should be caught by a simple '3-line check' that every jumper does when they run the lines. I'm not sure I understand #2. __________________________________________ We had a young jumper at our DZ, when packing, would just scoop-up all the right-side lines in his right hand, all the left-side lines in his left hand and walk it out. He'd then, proceed to pack. I tried to point-out that he wasn't doing it correctly and he just got 'mad'. He informed me in so many words, he knew what he was doing! So, things like that, can and do happen. We riggers don't know what people are going to do with their gear, once it leaves our shop. Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sid 1 #22 September 13, 2005 Quote Hey that brings up a related question....say the rigger did some work and logged it and later the owner messed with it....how in the heck would the rigger protect himself from that? Rigger says he connected things properly, owner says not... When the rigger squeezes the lead around the thread he/she is declaring it airworthy "THEN" - the seal should prohibit anyone messing with what's inside the reserve tray, but the main's all yours buddy! I always return a rig ready to jump, but after that first pack job is opened, you are responsible for it.Pete Draper, Just because my life plan is written on the back of a Hooter's Napkin, it's still a life plan.... right? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #23 September 13, 2005 Geez...the things you riggers have to deal with....I'll not get involved with rigging...I'm not to type of person for it.... To all you knowledgeable and competent ones with honesty and integrity, I say Thank You.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
