First AFF, 255 lbs, what do i need to know...

[jpickens 0]

Hey just looking for any helpful info i can before my upcoming jump. Im curious about the landing and "flaring" my chute to get the landing that doesnt blow my legs outs.

Im jumping at ascskydiving.com outside of Atlanta, GA and they say we are jumping with a Sport Chute. I dont know what that means but am curious to see what you all say.
They say it will handle up to 300 lbs no problem.

What do i need to know. - I am psyched!

[crotalus01 0]

Drive 10 minutes down the road and jump at The Farm.
ASC has a bad reputation that I am sure will be elaborated on shortly (business practices, I have no idea about their safety rating)...

As for me and my house, we will serve the LORD...

[jpickens 0]

Please enlighten me...

[davelepka 4]

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What do i need to know. - I am psyched!

You need to know that they'll teach you everything you need to know in the First Jump Course, which is one reason it will take all day.

In terms of the landing, you'll be taught what called a 'Parachute Landing Fall' or PLF, which is a technique for rolling your body across the ground in order to survive a fairly good impact without injury. Pay close attention to this part of the training, and make sure you follow through with it on your actual jump.

Being a bigger guy, you will be loading the parachute up more than the other students. Most student canopies are sized such that they are oversized for the average jumper, which is what you want. The oversized canopies will let you down softer than a more 'standard' sized chute. With you being of an above average weight, the 'oversized' canopy is more like a 'standard' sized canopy, so your dedication to the idea of a good PLF is key.

Even with your higher weight under the student canopy, it is easily possible that you will have a very soft landing, equal to sitting down in a comfy chair. The gear is capable of providing that, but it is up to the user to make it happen. Being a first time jumper, nobody can say how well you will fly the canopy, so plan for the worst, and roll it out.

Also, give the guys at The Farm a call and see what they have to say. If they can accomodate a jumper of your weight, send your business their way. They are a great bunch of guys with a solid reputaion in the industry. While the staff and instructors at ASC may be great guys as well, the owners of that place are straight up crooks, and not people you want to give your money to. Do a search on this sight for 'Skyride', and you'll see the way those guys do business, and why you don't want to be a part of it.

[JuiceBanger1 0]

I am not an instructor etc, but, i am 18.5 stones, so like you I fall fast and land a bit faster to. PLF learn it well, but you will probably have a radio link to tell you when to flare by the instructor so should have a good landing. I still find it hard to judge my flare height now and get a mix of soft landings and hard landings!

[tkhayes 140]

at 255lbs, not sure what container/reserve parachute you would be using, but I am pretty sure it is NOT TSO'd for your weight plus gear.

at some point in your life, you were only 200lbs. You should very much try losing 20-30 pounds before skydiving. you are on the heavy side of max, or the max side of heavy. If you were at my dropzone, you would not be jumping.

and just because they are willing to take you up, does not make it safe to do so.

[BIGUN 1,071]

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at 255lbs, not sure what container/reserve parachute you would be using, but I am pretty sure it is NOT TSO'd for your weight plus gear.

There's a considerable number of configurations for a rig to be completely TSO'd for up to 300 lbs.
Don't hate the Anvil Brothers

Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

[tkhayes 140]

Name one

[brucet7 0]

PD Navigator 300 is approved for someone with exit weight of 289 lbs.

POPS #10623; SOS #1672

[Programmer 0]

Falcon 300 (Precision Aerodynamics) should work. I believe it's also TSO'd for use as reserve.

[steveorino 7]

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at 255lbs, not sure what container/reserve parachute you would be using, but I am pretty sure it is NOT TSO'd for your weight plus gear.

There's a considerable number of configurations for a rig to be completely TSO'd for up to 300 lbs.
Don't hate the Anvil Brothers

+1

Glad the guys that taught me to skydive weren't that way. I'd never have earned my D, AFFI, TI and PRO (on a 150)

steveOrino

[BIGUN 1,071]

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Name one

1. MC-4 military rig

Rigs:
Vector (v382ish)
Javelin
Infinity
Can't find the TSO for Wings, Racer or Icon...

Mains:
PD Sabre2 260
PD 300
Falcon 300
ZP Manta 320
F111 Manta 290
Man-O-War 320
Rage 230
Icarus 229
PD Navigator 300

Reserves:
PD 281
Smart 250
Optimum 253
Falcon 300

Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

[BIGUN 1,071]

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Glad the guys that taught me to skydive weren't that way. I'd never have earned my D, AFFI, TI and PRO (on a 150)

Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

[mark 103]

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Quote

Name one

1. MC-4 military rig

Rigs:
Vector (v382ish)
Javelin
Infinity
Can't find the TSO for Wings, Racer or Icon...

Mains:
PD Sabre2 260
PD 300
Falcon 300
ZP Manta 320
F111 Manta 290
Man-O-War 320
Rage 230
Icarus 229
PD Navigator 300

Reserves:
PD 281
Smart 250
Optimum 253
Falcon 300

Reserves TSO'd for 300 pounds are TSO'd for an exit weight of 300 pounds. If you start at 255 pounds, that leaves 45 pounds for the rig including both canopies, shoes, helmet, altimeter, goggles, jumpsuit, other clothing for non-commandos, plus breakfast and whatever you're drinking to stay hydrated.

Mark

[brucet7 0]

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Reserves TSO'd for 300 pounds are TSO'd for an exit weight of 300 pounds. If you start at 255 pounds, that leaves 45 pounds for the rig including both canopies, shoes, helmet, altimeter, goggles, jumpsuit, other clothing for non-commandos, plus breakfast and whatever you're drinking to stay hydrated.

Mark

45 lbs sounds about right. That leaves, according to my scale, about 12 lbs leeway and I have a heavy canvas jump suit cause I am a big guy.

Granted, I have a 230/253 at this point, so maybe an extra pound or two for the increased canopy size.

POPS #10623; SOS #1672

• Quote

[chuckakers 370]

Go to The Farm.

My opinion comes from that of a longtime jumper that has served as an instructor, DZ staffer, manager, and owner.

Just got back from a big event at The Farm and I watched the student program as it operated in the midst of a big, busy boogie. That's hard to do and they did it very well. I'm old school when it comes to training - no excuses, train your students well and keep them safe. That's what I saw at The Farm.

As important as the training is, the DZ you train at is equally important. The planes from The Farm take off at the airport where ASC operates. I was there for an entire week, so I had a chance to see both operations. Every time I saw people jumping at ASC, it was tandems and video staff, and they were landing in a very tight area bordered by buildings, power lines, and trees.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not dissing ASC. Rather I'm plugging The Farm.

Trace the history of skydiving and you'll learn there has developed a divide between DZ's run by people who are trying to promote the sport and those run by people trying to promote their bank accounts. While there of course has to be a profit-sided middle ground for a business to stay in business, some DZ's have actually hurt skydiving with unscrupulous business practices while using the sport we all love as the vehicle for those practices. Not cool - but that's for you to do your own research.

Back on track. I met some of the coolest people in my 25 years in the sport at The Farm. Talented too. Want to get better fast? I suggest The Farm. It's a very active DZ with lots of people of all experience levels. That's the best environment to learn in - you will learn to interact with those around you to learn by osmosis. No other method of learning reaches as deeply into your understanding. Yes, the bonfire has a purpose.

Hans and his crew at Skydive the Farm run a damn good drop zone. I can give them my very best recommendation.

Let us all know what you decide to do.

Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

[tkhayes 140]

Navigator 300 is rated at 289 for a student, but the 281 reserve is only rated for 281 lbs for a student

255 plus easily 30 lbs of gear puts them at 285+

[tkhayes 140]

Falcon 300 has nothing published on their website about the max exit weight. so saying that it "should" work, cannot cut it unless you are absolutely sure.

We are not talking about what might work. We are talking about what would have to be explained in court when your student is badly injured and the manufacturer decides to 'not support you' because you decided to take some huge dude on an AFF jump.

Lots of manufacturers talk about it, few actually support it if you picked up the phone and called them.

[tkhayes 140]

from the Reflex owners manual:

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Technical Standard Order (TSO) Certification
At present, there are six levels of TSO certification in use. There are systems built under TSO-C23(B) in either low speed or standard category. There are systems built under TSO C23(C) in either category A, B, or C. As of 6/1/94, TSO C23(D) was implemented and TSO C23(C) was superseded. TSO C23(C) Parachute assembles shall be tested to minimum limits of persons 115 kg (254 lbs.) fully equipped, and up to 150 knots. TSO C23(D) Parachute assembles shall be tested to minimum limits of persons 119.7 kg (264 lbs.) fully equipped, and up to 150 knots.

REFLEX II™ Certification
The REFLEX II™ harness and container system is the first of its kind to be approved under FAA TSO C23(D). This assembly is limited to use by persons up to 124.7 kg (275 lbs.) fully equipped, and up to 150 knots. The upper weight limit was increased during testing in order to allow heavier jumpers a certified option for a harness and container system.

Vector SE is TSO-C23-B according to their own manual. that is 254lbs exit weight.

Javelin says theirs is rated for 300lbs, yet is manufactured under C23-D, which contradicts what Reflex says above.

I know for a fact that Wings will handle it, but if you call and ask, they will say NO.

Smart 250 reserve - NO, you are mistaken.
Optimum 253 reserve - NO, you are mistaken
PD 281 reserve - NO, you are mistaken

-----------------
so again, my whole point is - are you going to stand in a court of law and try to explain why you were COMPLETELY outside of the manufacturers recommendations when you are in that lawsuit?

Now go look up the definition of 'gross negligence' - because that is what they will sue you for. waiver or not.

I worked pretty fuckin' hard to get where i am today, and I am not going to risk it all for someone I do not even know. If that 255 guy wants to skydive bad enough, he will knock off 20-30 lbs.

No different than if I want to be an astronaut bad enough, I will go back to school, get my degrees, bust my ass for 10 years in research, apply for and do whatever they tell me to do to get there. But for now, I STILL want to be an astronaut - and they are NOT going to let me.....that is MY problem, not theirs.

TK

[RickH 0]

T.K. Is absolutely 100% correct. I too had a big boy show up at my DZ, wanting to go through the ISP program. I contacted the manufacture of our containers to check what the TSO was for the container, it was explained to me in the exact same way that TK explained it.
This person lost weight, came back under weight limit, finished the ISP program and thanked us for being the motivation for his weight loss.
Like TK, I too will adhere to the manufactures wishes. And the fact that, other DZO's are not would certainly raise my concerns concerning my own safety.

[mark 103]

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Vector SE is TSO-C23-B according to their own manual. that is 254lbs exit weight.

Javelin says theirs is rated for 300lbs, yet is manufactured under C23-D, which contradicts what Reflex says above.

There are no speed/weight limitations in TSO C23b Standard Category (Vector and Racer, for example. There is no weight limitation in TSO C23b Low Speed Category, and the speed limitation applies to the aircraft, not the freefall speed (Mirage, for example).

The 254 pound/150 knot limit is for TSO C23c Category B.

For TSO C23d, manufacturers may certify to any weight and speed above a minimum. So it is possible for a C23d Javelin to be rated for a higher weight and speed than a TSO C23d Reflex.

When combining a reserve with a harness/container system, maximum allowable weight is the lower of the two weight limits, and maximum allowable speed is the lower of the two maximum speeds.

TK -- you are absolutely right. Students should not be test jumpers.

Mark

[BIGUN 1,071]

Morning, Mark

Well, this appears to be turning into a rigging debate. Quite frankly, I'm more concerned about your PD Reserve 126 ft² loading at 1.71 lbs/ft² than I am with my Anvil student cutoff of 260#'s. And, have done the math by weighing everything which comes in at 28#'s which puts the total exit at 288# for a .09:1 or 1:1 in some cases.

There was a time when no one loaded a reserve at greater than 1:1, yet because the rating is at 300 pounds we've seen an exponential increase in reserve weight loading.

I'm very familiar with the Reflex since Mick sold me the first one at 300# ~1999 and we had many discussions regarding the TSO during the manufacturing phase.

I may bump the 300# max for TSO sakes, but not exceed it. Our DZ has several rigs that will accommodate the Anvil of several sizes and shapes.

I'll tell you guys a discussion I'd much rather have is; "Should the TSO process be re-vamped to a weight-loading standard, rather than a max weight standard." Although, I can't help but think there would be too much to unravel and re-ravel both bureaucratically and financially.

Have a great day, gentlemen.

Keith

Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

[tkhayes 140]

What experienced jumpers 'choose' for themselves versus what students jumpers have 'chosen' for them is apples and oranges.

Experienced jumpers buy their own gear, make their own choices, because they have a license that allows them to do that. There is little if any liability for the dropzone, aircraft operator or whatever/whomever.

It is CLEARLY obvious that the student does not decide what gear they jump - the staff, the dropzone and everyone along the line is responsible for making that 'smart' decisions for them. And that is where the 'negligence' happens if you exceed the weight limits.

With an experienced jumpers, they are fully informed, trained, have made many of their own gear decisions with experience as a mitigating factor. And currently, the 'norm' in the industry is 'overloaded reserves or exceeding TSOs'

That 'norm' does not exist for a student.

black and white.

[BIGUN 1,071]

Simply put; I have instructed a significant number of Anvils from 200-260# - and have not busted a TSO.

Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

[thrillstalker 0]

Call skydive the farm. Great people and I know they have gear that will fit you. They have 2 260 sq foot student rigs and a 280. It is where I dido my aff and I was 250 when i started. 10 minutes further than asc, but you get a 55acre farm to land on instead of a bolt hole between trees at asc. Talk to Hans, he is the dzo.

"Never grow a wishbone, where your backbone ought to be."