wing loadings for jumpers with 50-100 jumps

[Daskal 1]

Im gonna be really honest with everyone, as far as i'm concerned, once your an adult and have recieved your USPA A license, it is up to you to make the personal decision about what canopy you want to fly. I bought and flew a Jedei 136 at 100 jumps, and am now downsizing to a Nitron 120 (my first new canopy), and i'm still here with no injuries or anything. I am sick and tired of people blaming the canopy selection for causing the injury when more often than not it is the jumper DOING SOMETHING STUPID close to the ground that results in the incident.
The bottom line is that some people just naturally fly their canopy better than others. On my AFF level 1 (no prior tandems) jump I stood up my canopy right in the center of the target, and have been just as successful on my later jumps. On the other hand, we have jumpers with 600+ jumps on our dropzone who still slide in their landings under Sabre 2's and Pilots loaded at 1.2 or so.
I am a USPA Coach and when I jump with students and the students ask me for advice on canopy selection I refer them to a USPA Instructor. But once they recieve their A license, it is their decision what they want to fly, and I will not hesitate to encourage licensed jumpers to downsize quickly like I did if I feel that they are flying their canopies really well, and seem to be heads-up people. One of my friends, around my age on the dropzone who I jumpmastered on his coached and clear-and-pull jumps is thinking of downsizing quickly to satisfy his need for speed under canopy. With the way he is flying his canopy, I will support him in whatever decision he feels comfortable making. Bottom line, I am SICK AND TIRED of Instructional Rating holders using their ratings as "ranks" to give orders to licensed, adult skydivers who are free to make their own decisions about what they want to fly. As long as a licensed skydiver is not breaking any BSR's, or Federal or State laws, USPA Instructors have ZERO authority to tell them to do anything. I will fly what canopy I want regardless of what anybody tells me, and unless im breaking the BSR's or FAA rules there is nothing USPA or anybody else can do about it.

[damion75 0]

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The bottom line is that some people just naturally fly their canopy better than others. On my AFF level 1 (no prior tandems) jump I stood up my canopy right in the center of the target, and have been just as successful on my later jumps. On the other hand, we have jumpers with 600+ jumps on our dropzone who still slide in their landings under Sabre 2's and Pilots loaded at 1.2 or so.

I am glad to hear that you are special and therefore no risk to yourself or others.

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But once they recieve their A license, it is their decision what they want to fly, and I will not hesitate to encourage licensed jumpers to downsize quickly like I did if I feel that they are flying their canopies really well, and seem to be heads-up people.

Because as soon as people have their A licences, they magically become really knowledgeable about what they want and what they are capable of. I too have noticed this!

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One of my friends, around my age on the dropzone who I jumpmastered on his coached and clear-and-pull jumps is thinking of downsizing quickly to satisfy his need for speed under canopy. With the way he is flying his canopy, I will support him in whatever decision he feels comfortable making.

I guess he is not THAT good a friend then.

***
there is nothing USPA or anybody else can do about it.

Apart from the DZO... obviously...

Did I sound a bit like Ron there?!

***************

Not one shred of evidence supports the theory that life is serious - look at the platypus.

[skybytch 259]

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But once they recieve their A license, it is their decision what they want to fly, and I will not hesitate to encourage licensed jumpers to downsize quickly like I did if I feel that they are flying their canopies really well, and seem to be heads-up people.

So if a guy who stood up all 30 of his landings under student canopies asked you if a Vengeance that he'd load at 1.3 or so was a good canopy choice for him, you'd encourage him to buy it?

Haven't scraped any friends off the landing area yet, have you?

[Ron 7]

I was going to reply to this guy....But you said it perfectly.

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I am glad to hear that you are special and therefore no risk to yourself or others.......

Because as soon as people have their A licences, they magically become really knowledgeable about what they want and what they are capable of. I too have noticed this!

Perfect.

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Did I sound a bit like Ron there?!

Ill take that as a complement...even if it was not intended that way.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[MarkM 0]

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I am sick and tired of people blaming the canopy selection for causing the injury when more often than not it is the jumper DOING SOMETHING STUPID close to the ground that results in the incident.

The problem though is that you don't always know who the "DOING SOMETHING STUPID" people are, until they've already done something stupid. The canopy selection doesn't mean that they won't do something stupid, it just means they'll be more likely to survive it.

So even if 9 out of 10 guys will be fine, you put all 10 on a light canopy load so that 1 guy won't leave a red smear on the runway when he hooks it in.

[gulaz 1]

I started jumping a 160 when I had ~ 65 jumps (WL @ 1.1). That was after I had done around 10 jumps on a sabre 170, and 25-30 under a PD190. I always was careful, and consulted with instructors, and waited until I was comfortable with it.
I do CRW sometimes now, and when I do that (at 110 jumps) I jump a lightning 143 (WL @ 1.1-1.2).

I feel comfortable jumping those canopies, but I wouldnt dream of jumping anything smaller, or elliptical at this point.

[damion75 0]

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Ill take that as a complement...even if it was not intended that way.

Don't worry - it was a compliment! Some people may disagree with your style but no-one can say that you don't simply say what needs to be said!

***************

Not one shred of evidence supports the theory that life is serious - look at the platypus.

[billvon 2,477]

> Im gonna be really honest with everyone, as far as i'm concerned,
> once your an adult and have recieved your USPA A license, it is up
> to you to make the personal decision about what canopy you want
> to fly.

Agreed.

>I bought and flew a Jedei 136 at 100 jumps, and am now downsizing
> to a Nitron 120 (my first new canopy), and i'm still here with no
> injuries or anything.

I drove while very drunk a few times in college, and never died or was seriously injured. Does that indicate it's a good idea? What advice would you give a good friend who always drove drunk, but claimed he had never been in an accident and thus would always be fine?

>I am sick and tired of people blaming the canopy selection for
> causing the injury when more often than not it is the jumper DOING
> SOMETHING STUPID close to the ground that results in the incident.

Agreed. But as with the drunk driver analogy - if a drunk driver runs into another car and kills someone, it is his fault that he didn't avoid the other car. One big additional factor is that it's hard to drive when you're drunk, because your reaction times go down.

If you are a bit sketchy on canopy control, and you make a mistake, you may die if you have a small canopy and just be seriously injured if you have a larger one. Thus, the good judgement to get a larger canopy until you have mastered canopy control is important, and can mitigate the consequences of making a mistake (and nearly everyone makes mistakes.)

As an example - I'm alive today because I made my first really bad canopy mistake on a PD190 rather than a Sabre 135, and I have managed to avoid more than one collision on big-ways by using a larger canopy than I ordinarily would.

>The bottom line is that some people just naturally fly their canopy
> better than others. On my AFF level 1 (no prior tandems) jump I
> stood up my canopy right in the center of the target, and have been
> just as successful on my later jumps.

That's like saying you can naturally fly an F-16 because you can land a Cessna 152 really well. Some skills do indeed transfer, but you need instruction or experience (preferably both) to learn to fly the new canopy well. A Nitron 120 flies completely differently than a Manta.

>But once they recieve their A license, it is their decision what they
> want to fly, and I will not hesitate to encourage licensed jumpers to
> downsize quickly like I did if I feel that they are flying their canopies
> really well, and seem to be heads-up people.

How do you verify their ability to land their canopies well before suggesting they get a smaller canopy? What's your checklist?

>Bottom line, I am SICK AND TIRED of Instructional Rating holders
> using their ratings as "ranks" to give orders to licensed, adult
> skydivers who are free to make their own decisions about what they
> want to fly.

Give it time. After you have more time in the sport you will also get sick of watching your friends be injured, paralyzed and killed. It is a natural progression for many skydivers. When they are the ones being told to slow down they resent it; when they start seeing their friends die they become the ones telling people to slow down.

>I will fly what canopy I want regardless of what anybody tells me, and
> unless im breaking the BSR's or FAA rules there is nothing USPA or
> anybody else can do about it.

I've grounded more than one person who was flying a canopy they could not handle. Keep in mind that DZO's own the DZ, and they can do whatever they want with their airplanes and their property. Often they will take action to prevent people from getting killed on their DZ.

[Ron 7]

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>I bought and flew a Jedei 136 at 100 jumps, and am now downsizing
> to a Nitron 120 (my first new canopy), and i'm still here with no
> injuries or anything.

I drove while very drunk a few times in college, and never died or was seriously injured. Does that indicate it's a good idea? What advice would you give a good friend who always drove drunk, but claimed he had never been in an accident and thus would always be fine?

Bill that has to be the BEST explanation I have ever read.

Just cause you have driven home drunk before, and others have done it does NOT mean its safe or OK.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[teason 0]

Haven't scraped any friends off the landing area yet, have you?***

I hate it but you're right. That's probably what it takes.

Years ago a freind of mine, the most conservative jumper on the DZ, flew back from a long spot, turned low and impacted a dirt road.

I was teaching a first jump course at the time knowing that they were doing compressions on him on the road. I don't know how I kept it together infront of my students but they never knew anything beyond the fact that there was an injury.

The reality was we didn't know if he had survived or not.

I still remember trying to imagine the force of the impact as I was looking at his kroops with the plastic shattered and covered in blood.

At a small DZ, you get close to everyone who jumps, they are not just "some idiot" who did "something stupid" they are friends who you've laughed with, shared beers with, confided in. They have parents, brothers, sisters and even children who you also know.

Safety becomes more important when you can see a friend's blood stain at 3000'.

I'm really sorry if that's too graphic but it's nothing compared to being there.

You NEVER want to be there.

I would rather be a superb meteor, every atom of me in magnificent glow, than a sleepy and permanent planet.

[tcnelson 1]

you're abso-fucking-lutely correct. i agree wholeheartedly, etc, etc, etc. rock on.

"Don't talk to me like that assface...I don't work for you yet." - Fletch
NBFT, Deseoso Rodriguez RB#1329

[nathaniel 0]

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I drove while very drunk a few times in college, and never died or was seriously injured. Does that indicate it's a good idea? What advice would you give a good friend who always drove drunk, but claimed he had never been in an accident and thus would always be fine?

OK, just to stir things up a bit--and not endorsing any individual in this discussion--analogies are wonderful things.

I know (for real) a woman who lives in Manhattan. She's lived in Manhattan for 50 years. She seldom leaves a 5-block radius from her apartment, and she's petrified whenever she does. She needs serious coaching and a couple friends' direct support & encouragement to leave the isle. She's more or less healthy and her physical attributes are no impediment.

She's managed to survive so far, and as long as she stays within 5 blocks or so of her apartment she's an ordinary happy person.

drumroll please....


Therefore, every city dweller should stay within 5 blocks of home, and should have a pair of chaperones when they leave.

nathaniel

My advice is to do what your parents did; get a job, sir. The bums will always lose. Do you hear me, Lebowski?

[pilotdave 0]

Do you mean to be agreeing with bill? Because you are. His point is just because it's worked for one person doesn't make it a good idea. You seem to be saying the same thing.

I assume you mean to be saying that being too conservative can be a bad thing. And I agree with you. That's why nobody's suggesting we all jump manta 288s for our entire lives.

Dave

[ChasingBlueSky 0]

Have you noticed the trend that people that have been in the sport a long time with a decent amount of experience tend to say the same thing? Do you think it is because they don't want the newbie to grow and enjoy the sport, or could it be that they have seen too many people killed for very avoidable reasons. Maybe their years of experience has wisened them. Personally, I know a few people that have been in the sport a long time that still wonder how they survived the first 10 years in the sport and now preach a much safer method for newbies.

Here is something else to consider - notice that the death rate tends to go up once off of student status and ego starts making your decisions instead of a seasoned veteran jumpmaster?

I was a bit reckless my first year or two in the sport and felt how you did. Then I buried a friend, and then I buried a half dozen more. Funny how that changes everything. I give rather conservative advice now for one very selfish reason: I don't want to go to another friends funeral. I usually tell people that I will stick this note on their gravestone: "I told you so."

As far as downsizing goes - I've been talking about doing that for four years now. Everytime I jump the size smaller than mine (like this weekend), I realize how much more I can do with the canopy I already own. Like this weekend - I did my first intentional downwind landing in winds over 10mph and stood it up.

But I am sure you are better than the rest and are the exeption to the rule. I've been to two funerals for people that felt the same way. Where is my sticky pad...I think I may have a sign to write.

_________________________________________
you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me....
I WILL fly again.....

[Ron 7]

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Have you noticed the trend that people that have been in the sport a long time with a decent amount of experience tend to say the same thing? Do you think it is because they don't want the newbie to grow and enjoy the sport, or could it be that they have seen too many people killed for very avoidable reasons. Maybe their years of experience has wisened them. Personally, I know a few people that have been in the sport a long time that still wonder how they survived the first 10 years in the sport and now preach a much safer method for newbies.

Here is something else to consider - notice that the death rate tends to go up once off of student status and ego starts making your decisions instead of a seasoned veteran jumpmaster?

I was a bit reckless my first year or two in the sport and felt how you did. Then I buried a friend, and then I buried a half dozen more. Funny how that changes everything. I give rather conservative advice now for one very selfish reason: I don't want to go to another friends funeral. I usually tell people that I will stick this note on their gravestone: "I told you so."

As far as downsizing goes - I've been talking about doing that for four years now. Everytime I jump the size smaller than mine (like this weekend), I realize how much more I can do with the canopy I already own. Like this weekend - I did my first intentional downwind landing in winds over 10mph and stood it up.

But I am sure you are better than the rest and are the exeption to the rule. I've been to two funerals for people that felt the same way. Where is my sticky pad...I think I may have a sign to write.

(I did the bold to press the point home.)

This may be the best written reply ever about this subject.....I have nothing to add, but I agree.

Oh, and I have some sticky notes

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[kelel01 1]

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I will not hesitate to encourage licensed jumpers to downsize quickly like I did if I feel that they are flying their canopies really well, and seem to be heads-up people. One of my friends, around my age on the dropzone who I jumpmastered on his coached and clear-and-pull jumps is thinking of downsizing quickly to satisfy his need for speed under canopy. With the way he is flying his canopy, I will support him in whatever decision he feels comfortable making.

Holy shit .. . that's fuckin' scary. If I ever seek you out for advice, unknowingly, please tell me your DZ.com name, and I will disregard any advice given.

Kelly

[teason 0]

I will not hesitate to encourage licensed jumpers to downsize quickly***

I've seen novice jumpers turf in at boogies under small canopies that are way beyond their skill level. Over beers that night, they'll say that an Instructor or experienced jumper recomended the canopy they're jumping because it performs so well.

I use to think that must be crap, no Instructor would recomend a canopy way beyond a jumpers skill level.

see... 12 years and still learning

I would rather be a superb meteor, every atom of me in magnificent glow, than a sleepy and permanent planet.

[kelpdiver 2]

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I know (for real) a woman who lives in Manhattan. She's lived in Manhattan for 50 years. She seldom leaves a 5-block radius from her apartment, and she's petrified whenever she does. She needs serious coaching and a couple friends' direct support & encouragement to leave the isle. She's more or less healthy and her physical attributes are no impediment.

I'm afraid that whatever point you're hoping to make is killed by the poorness of the analogy.

The issue with alcohol impairment for driving is that it slows reaction time with even limited amounts, and in large amounts makes it hard to do coordinated motions.

A somewhat higher wingload increases speed, thereby reducing the time the jumper has to react. Net result is the same. A very high wingload is significantly harder to control smoothly.

A person that is afraid of moving away 5 blocks has issues that are irrelevent to what happens on block 6.

[billvon 2,477]

>Therefore, every city dweller should stay within 5 blocks of home,
> and should have a pair of chaperones when they leave.

?? Huh? You posted an example of one person who is terrified to leave their house for no good reason. A reasonable conclusion might be that _she_ should stay within 5 blocks of home and have a pair of chaperones when she leave.

We're talking about something different here. If the largest percentage of city-folk deaths occured because they went beyond a 5 block radius of their house without chaperones, you'd have a good argument against staying within a 5 block radius - and the analogy might be valid. Similarly, if deaths under good canopies were not the #1 killer of skydivers, advice to not jump smaller canopies until you were very proficient at your current canopy would be questionable. Unfortunately, that IS the #1 killer of skydivers. (And fortunately, being more than 5 blocks away from home is not the #1 killer of people who live in a city.)

[Daskal 1]

Click on my nick and you can find out who I am. I have nothing to hide here. However, my friends and I are doing just fine on our DZ, and im glad reasonable people can differ on what is "scary" and what is not. Nobody I jump with seems to be making the paternalistic statements you people are. Like I said before, you have to take the canopy pilot's skill into the equation. Some people naturally progress and improve their skills better than others. I will continue to give advice to my students (within the authority of a USPA Coach) and licensed skydivers who ask me for it, and all I said is that I will SUPPORT my friend in whatever decision he feels comfortable making. I don't encourage people to fly canopies they do not feel that they are ready for. But whenever my friend feels that he wants to take it to the next level, I will be there for him.

[ChasingBlueSky 0]

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Click on my nick and you can find out who I am. I have nothing to hide here. However, my friends and I are doing just fine on our DZ, and im glad reasonable people can differ on what is "scary" and what is not. Nobody I jump with seems to be making the paternalistic statements you people are. Like I said before, you have to take the canopy pilot's skill into the equation. Some people naturally progress and improve their skills better than others. I will continue to give advice to my students (within the authority of a USPA Coach) and licensed skydivers who ask me for it, and all I said is that I will SUPPORT my friend in whatever decision he feels comfortable making. I don't encourage people to fly canopies they do not feel that they are ready for. But whenever my friend feels that he wants to take it to the next level, I will be there for him.

Does your DZO realize you are giving reckless advice? If so, please get him on here and get him to reply to this. I want to hear his reasoning on why he would allow this to happen.

I'm curious - how many friends have you visited in the hospital? How many funerals of people you jump with have you gone to? I doubt you fully understand how dangerous you really are. Your bulletproof mentality will get someone else killed. Even if you are one of the lucky ones that does good in the sport right from the beginning doesn't mean those you coach are in the same category.

You are a prime reason I why I feel that the coach rating is a joke and that they will give it to anybody.

I'll be sending you a pad of sticky notes for the people you are coaching.

Like I said - I knew someone that claimed he was differant than everyone else and somehow found a way to get under a Velo at 120 jumps. He is dead now.

And just to give you some perspective - I come from a very progressive DZ that puts students on Sabre 2s (I learned on a Safire). I understand how using modern gear is a great thing - but needless downsizing at low jump numers/experience isn't needed. You may be able to land that canopy but it doesn't mean you should try it. I had this conversation with someone this weekend...he jumps a 119 and felt he could jump down to a 99 without a problem. He told me "no worries, I can land it" and I looked at him with a puzzled face and inquired why he felt he had to do that. He was lucky the only thing he did was slice open his foot on landing.

The bad part of you coming from such a small DZ is that you really believe you are a big fish.

_________________________________________
you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me....
I WILL fly again.....

[tcnelson 1]

sorry 'bout your friend(s)...doesn't change my opinion...maybe you think that because you think that you're wiser that your thoughts coincide with the wise. i don't think so. i'll be here tomorrow and the next day, even though you think i know less than you. i appreciate your concern but, in my experience, those with above-average ability progress on a steeper learning curve than the average. don't mean to be a dick, but i've been listening to the bullshit for too long.

"Don't talk to me like that assface...I don't work for you yet." - Fletch
NBFT, Deseoso Rodriguez RB#1329

[damion75 0]

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I will continue to give advice to my students (within the authority of a USPA Coach) and licensed skydivers who ask me for it.

As much as anything else, this is the bit I find bizarre! I have asked about getting in to coaching (FS not canopy) in the UK and it is a 300 jump minimum for us apparently.

Anyone turning up at my DZ with 190 jumps and claiming to be a 'canopy coach' with sufficient knowledge and experience to teach or advise others would just be laughed at and told to get back in his box!

***************

Not one shred of evidence supports the theory that life is serious - look at the platypus.

[tcnelson 1]

how 'bout that, a conservative conservative.

"Don't talk to me like that assface...I don't work for you yet." - Fletch
NBFT, Deseoso Rodriguez RB#1329

[tcnelson 1]

reckless advice? here's some advice; stop making friends with injury-prone people.

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The bad part of you coming from such a small DZ is that you really believe you are a big fish.

The bad part of thinking that you're a big fish is that you think that you have the right to tell other people that they don't know what they're talking about. I, for one, think that self-doubt and fear have put more people in the ground than taking calculated risks.

"Don't talk to me like that assface...I don't work for you yet." - Fletch
NBFT, Deseoso Rodriguez RB#1329