Picked Up Dog From Breeder...sick w/in 24 hours

[k-dubjumps 0]

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Well mom is 70lbs and dad was 85lbs...so probably around 70 lbs is my guess. She is 6months old and is 35 pounds right now. She doesn't look like she lost much weight at the hospital.

The breeder has basically said "sorry" and said she did not do it intentionally (sell us a sick dog). She said she would stand by the contract. Well that basically means I could have brought Chloe back with the Parvo virus and got my money back.

I've sent her the vet bill (a touch under a fortune - thats why she is now our Platinum Retriever :) ) and asked what she could do to help offset the costs. I haven't heard back from her yet on that.

She should at least give you your money back. Its the least she could do.

Adrenaline is my crack

DPH #3
D.S. #16 FAG #12 Muff Brother #4406

[Conundrum 1]

How much research did you do on this "breeder" before spending $1,000 on a dog? And then you spent another $2,000 the same day because it had parvo????

Wow.

[Bolas 5]

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Now, it has cost us thousands. Worth it? I don't know. What value do you put on a pet? Especially one you've known for less than 24 hours? What responsibility do you have when you decide you want a pet? Do you care for it only when it benefits you? Do you say, well this will cost me money, I'm not doing it - and let the dog die?

It's not about the money, it's about the pet's chance of survival and ability to still lead a happy normal life afterward.

When I had a dog I told myself when she can no longer do those things that make her tail wag so hard you think it'll fall off, it might be time to say goodbye.

Congrats and hope you have many wonderful years together.

Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.

[PLFXpert 0]

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I guess I don't see why it's preferable to have them euthanized.

It's not. Who said that?

Breeders often breed more than there is a market for.

Paint me in a corner, but my color comes back.

[Opie 0]

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Well mom is 70lbs and dad was 85lbs...so probably around 70 lbs is my guess. She is 6months old and is 35 pounds right now. She doesn't look like she lost much weight at the hospital.

The breeder has basically said "sorry" and said she did not do it intentionally (sell us a sick dog). She said she would stand by the contract. Well that basically means I could have brought Chloe back with the Parvo virus and got my money back.

I've sent her the vet bill (a touch under a fortune - thats why she is now our Platinum Retriever :) ) and asked what she could do to help offset the costs. I haven't heard back from her yet on that.

If you would of took the dog back to the breeder and got your money back what would the "breeder" have done with the dog???

[Nightingale 0]

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If you would of took the dog back to the breeder and got your money back what would the "breeder" have done with the dog???

A reputable breeder would have taken the dog straight to the vet. Good breeders take responsibility for the lives they help create. They also make sure that none of their dogs ever end up in a shelter by letting the new owners know that the dog is welcome back to the breeder if the owner can't take care of it for any reason. They do genetic testing on their animals to make sure that no genetic disease is passed to the puppies, and will spay or neuter any dog that has a genetic condition or is otherwise unsuitable for breeding.

I got my dog from a breeder... he was a show dog, and his adult teeth came in and showed a genetic problem. Nothing life or health threatening, just cosmetic. The breeder not only pulled him from the breeding program and fixed him, but she spent literally thousands at a doggie dentist to fix his teeth. To get the dog, I had to go through an interview where she grilled me to make sure that I would be a good fit for this specific dog.

My next dog will probably be a rescue. For my first one, I wanted one that had all the genetic testing done (my cat had died of a genetic disease, and I didn't want to go through that again), and I'd just fallen in love with the papillon breed. He is a wonderful dog, exactly what I wanted, and I couldn't ask for better.

To help with the homeless pet problem, I donate regularly to www.bestfriends.org. They're a fantastic organization! My next pet will be one of their rescues.

[Rosebud 0]

Reputable breeders don't breed more than their demand. A good breeder will have a wait list for their puppies that has more people than an average litter. Moreover, they will also have a list of people waiting for older dogs that are returned for one reason or another.

Also, While I agree the breeder has an ethical responsibility for the dog, her legal obligation is going to come down the the specifics of the contract.

[PLFXpert 0]

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Reputable breeders

This term "reputable breeder" is used often in these threads.

What defines a "reputable breeder" as opposed to the backyard breeder or any other and what percentage of breeders do_you_believe fall into the "reputable" category?

"Reputable" breeder or not, there is plenty of information out there supporting rescue/adoption as the best means to reduce pet overpopulation and the status quo of homeless & unwanted pets being euthanized and/or inhumanely killed.

Edit: From those in favor of purchasing pets from a store or breeder:

A. Is pet overpopulation a concern of yours?
B. If so, what strategy do you support to reduce the status quo of homeless and unwanted pets being euthanized and/or inhumanely killed?

It would be silly for me to take the time to debate rescue vs. purchase with A. Someone who is not concerned, nor likely to be or B. Someone who does not have a valid alternative strategy to support.



P.S. My apologies to the OP for the thread hijack.

Paint me in a corner, but my color comes back.

[Nightingale 0]

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Reputable breeders don't breed more than their demand. A good breeder will have a wait list for their puppies that has more people than an average litter. Moreover, they will also have a list of people waiting for older dogs that are returned for one reason or another.

Exactly! Most good breeders don't breed for profit. They breed to show dogs and try to improve the breed. Unless they're a puppy mill or manage to win Westminster, they're probably not making money or breeding full time. A good breeder will show their dogs and will be happy to show you the entire pedigree of your dog, the genetic tests, and their breeding facilities. They control who their dogs go to and will never, ever sell to a pet store.

[billvon 2,426]

>It's not. Who said that?

I thought you did, but maybe I was wrong - so I'll ask.

If you have a choice between a dog from a breeder and a dog from a shelter, and both will be euthanized if you do not adopt them - which would you choose?

>Breeders often breed more than there is a market for.

Agreed, and owners who did not intend to breed often do the same out of carelessness. In both cases the result is dogs that have no homes.

[Rosebud 0]

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Reputable breeders

This term "reputable breeder" is used often in these threads.

What defines a "reputable breeder" as opposed to the backyard breeder or any other and what percentage of breeders do_you_believe fall into the "reputable" category?
_____________


I am very sad to say that I think less than 10% of breeders out there right now are what I would call reputable. My gut thinks it is closer to 5%. I work in the animal health industry and in a week I talk to about 10-15 breeders. I also work with the SPCA, humane societies, local shelters, breed specific rescue and county animal control.

As for a definition, it really isn't that hard. These are people who are actively influencing their breed in the show ring or politicly. Rarely, will they make money on a litter. After Echo, OFA testing, Thyroid tests, PennHip Cert. ARVC tests these people are not going to make much, if anything. Sure, it is a tax write off but that is about it.

I absolutely agree that there are too many unwanted pets out there. Some counties in CA are charging a yearly $500 license fee for an intact male. I am in full support of that!!! That being said, if you are looking for particular traits, attitudes, appearances in a pet and you want a purebred just purchase from a "Reputable" (and I don't take that term lightly) breeder.

There are way to many points of difference between real breeders and the other ones.

_________________

"Reputable" breeder or not, there is plenty of information out there supporting rescue/adoption as the best means to reduce pet overpopulation and the status quo of homeless & unwanted pets being euthanized and/or inhumanely killed.

Edit: From those in favor of purchasing pets from a store or breeder:

A. Is pet overpopulation a concern of yours?
B. If so, what strategy do you support to reduce the status quo of homeless and unwanted pets being euthanized and/or inhumanely killed?

It would be silly for me to take the time to debate rescue vs. purchase with A. Someone who is not concerned, nor likely to be or B. Someone who does not have a valid alternative strategy to support.

____________

A. Of course it is a concern!
B. Some of the current guidelines for adopting out pets is insane. I will probably be under fire for saying this but there are times that I blame the institution.

For example: One of my customers is a very large SPCA. They can comfortably house about 400 dogs at a time and have an awesome cattery. A few years ago, there was a (very unfortunate) paper mix up and a dog that was supposed to go home with a family that week was mistaken for a distemper dog and put down. They acknowledged their mistake and apologized profusely but after it is said and done you cant bring that dog back. The family went to the press, the press had a field day, total re org of the SPCA in less that 3 months and it was turned into a no-kill SPCA. Now, they aren't even allowed to transfer dogs to particular organizations.

So where did this leave the SPCA in a housing market that was crashing like crazy? Within a year they were over 800% capacity with a decline in donations. The awesome catterys they had were absolutely over run with cats to the point that there were dead cats just sitting there. Im not sure if they were unnoticed or just didn't have time to deal with it. They were understaffed, underfunded, and over populated. 5 dogs in runs designed for 2. It turned my stomach. But they were also asking $300 for a dog!

Another Story, a vet I know went to a Humane Society to volunteer his services. He found an English Bulldog with numerous health problems. The vet already worked with a local bulldog rescue and has 2 at home, one with similar issues. The HS told him the dog was unadoptable and put the dog down instead of letting the vet adopt her.

I have plenty more stories but will spare you. I think we have more problems in the system that need to be addressed than people realize. It is a serious problem that I don't know how to fix. Any and all ideas are welcome.... I also am SO in favor of very high license fee for intact pets.

My 2 Cents for what its worth....


P.S. My apologies to the OP for the thread hijack.

Yea, Sorry!!! Cant wait to meet her at the DZ though!!!

[Nightingale 0]

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Reputable breeders

This term "reputable breeder" is used often in these threads.

What defines a "reputable breeder" as opposed to the backyard breeder or any other and what percentage of breeders do_you_believe fall into the "reputable" category?

"Reputable" breeder or not, there is plenty of information out there supporting rescue/adoption as the best means to reduce pet overpopulation and the status quo of homeless & unwanted pets being euthanized and/or inhumanely killed.

Edit: From those in favor of purchasing pets from a store or breeder:

A. Is pet overpopulation a concern of yours?
B. If so, what strategy do you support to reduce the status quo of homeless and unwanted pets being euthanized and/or inhumanely killed?

It would be silly for me to take the time to debate rescue vs. purchase with A. Someone who is not concerned, nor likely to be or B. Someone who does not have a valid alternative strategy to support.

A reputable breeder:

1. SHOWS THEIR DOGS. This shows they accept criticism of their breeding program from the community and allow their dogs to be publicly compared to the breed standard. They know their breed and can discuss the characteristics of the breed at length.

2. DOES NOT BREED RANDOMLY JUST TO MAKE PUPPIES. They breed dogs that have proved themselves in the show ring to ensure that the dogs conform to breed standard and do not have genetic problems.

3. PERFORMS GENETIC TESTING ON THEIR DOGS. Good breeders will not breed a dog without finding out if that dog has a genetic condition, and they will not breed a dog who does.

4. MEETS THE PEOPLE BUYING DOGS. For a good breeder, the dogs are their passion and they want to make sure they go to good homes where they will be treated well. If the people aren't right for the dog, they don't get the dog. Period.

5. REQUIRES A CONTRACT. A good breeder will want to make sure that any dog they sell doesn't end up in a shelter. The contract will require that the dog returns to them in the event the owner cannot care for the dog.

6. SPAYS AND NEUTERS. A good breeder will make sure that any dog sold as a pet is spayed/neutered prior to going to its new home.

7. IS OPEN ABOUT THEIR PROGRAM. A good breeder will let you visit and inspect their facilities.

8. WILL GUARANTEE THE HEALTH OF THE DOG IN WRITING. Good breeders stand by their dogs and will accept returns of sick dogs so they can be properly cared for, and/or assist the new owners in obtaining care.

9. FOLLOWS UP! They will call new owners to see how the pups are doing, offer advice and always be available if there is ever a problem with the dog. If the dog develops any problems, they want to know about it!



Pet overpopulation is very much a concern. What people often fail to realize is that many times, people who get a dog from a breeder would not get a dog from a rescue or shelter at that point in time, so the dog is not "taking a home away" from a shelter dog.

As for dealing with overpopulation, there are many things that can be done:

1. support local low cost spay/neuter programs.
2. donate your time or money to rescue organizations promoting pet adoption. (www.bestfriends.org is a good place to start!)
3. volunteer at shelters to help lower costs.
4. SPAY AND NEUTER YOUR OWN PETS!
5. Foster an animal in need of a home.
6. NEVER EVER PURCHASE A CAT OR DOG FROM A PET STORE. Don't support irresponsible breeding.
7. Support education programs about spaying and neutering, and help educate the pet community about responsible breeding practices and how to avoid puppy mills and irresponsible breeders.


There are far too many irresponsible breeders. I couldn't possibly give you a percentage, because most of them breed randomly in their backyard and don't do anything with the dog community, so they are very hard to track. Many of these breeders will have one or two litters and realize it's more trouble and cost than it's worth and stop breeding. Others operate puppy mills and provide dogs to the pet store industry. However, bad breeders are easy to avoid if you educate yourself, and if everyone stopped buying their puppies, that part of the industry would disappear.

A reputable breeder is easy to find, but they won't go looking for you (good breeders usually don't need to advertise beyond maintaining a website... you won't find them in the newspaper or the ads section of Dog Fancy). Go to a dog show. They will be there, and usually happy to talk to you when they're not getting ready for their event. If they won't have puppies available anytime soon, they will happily refer you to someone who is actively breeding so you can get on their wait list. And they're happy to chat your ear off about their breed. If there aren't any dog shows near you, check the websites of the dog shows and find out which dogs are doing well. The name of the kennel is included in the name of the dog. You can then google the breeder and usually find all the information you need to contact them on their website.

[PLFXpert 0]

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If you have a choice between a dog from a breeder and a dog from a shelter, and both will be euthanized if you do not adopt them - which would you choose?

The shelter.

Eventually most breeders (the other 90%, per Rosebud) will stop breeding if they are no longer making money.

Kris, if the "good breeders" (is this different than "reputable"?) are not breeding for profit, is it your opinion the rest are or are not?

For the purpose of this discussion, let's leave puppy mills out of the equation and stick to the backyard breeder.



I hate when people go for the "well, I know someone who did" argument, so consider the following merely "sharing" since it is fresh for me on the brain:

Just last week--in the shopping center next to another with a Petco holding adoptions (the most successful adoption location in my city and surrounding!



As someone sensitive to the issue, as well as member of both the national "No More Homeless Pets" movement and very active in my local one, this is not the first time I have been offered an animal to purchase from a backyard breeder. It is not even the 10th time.

Thank goodness I am not the only one to bear witness to this particular part of the problem with pet overpopulation--so has the HSUS, Best Friends, et al. and all support the spay/neuter/rescue/adopt strategy as the best means toward solving the problem.

Paint me in a corner, but my color comes back.

[PLFXpert 0]

Great post!

Cannot disagree with most of it.

Paint me in a corner, but my color comes back.

[skyrider 0]

I was hoping the bump of this thread woudl be a good news update,,, Hows da pup?

[PLFXpert 0]

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What people often fail to realize is that many times, people who get a dog from a breeder would not get a dog from a rescue or shelter at that point in time, so the dog is not "taking a home away" from a shelter dog.

But, if it is_not_from the 10% (maybe only 5%!) that are reputable, they are keeping the breeder in the business of breeding and thus supporting the status quo of the number of homeless pets being euthanized instead of helping to reduce it.

If there are special needs and the person has considerably limited options for a potential dog, go to the reputable breeder. Anyone else would either A. Surprise you and even themselves by adopting from a reputable rescue--probably a breed-specific one or B. (The less likely option) Actually, not adopt. I am OK with that. Caring for a pet is not for everyone--especially someone with extreme expectations.

Paint me in a corner, but my color comes back.

[billvon 2,426]

>The shelter.

OK. So, given the choice, you'd prefer the dog from the breeder to be euthanized over the dog from the shelter - which is what I said in the first place.

>Eventually most breeders (the other 90% per Rosebud) will stop breeding
>if they are no longer making money.

Ah, I see. So the "good" result of the decision you describe above is not in saving dogs, it's sort of a boycott of breeders, with a hope of some future reduction from economic pressures (i.e. euthanized dogs don't make them any money.)

[PLFXpert 0]

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So, given the choice, you'd prefer the dog from the breeder to be euthanized over the dog from the shelter - which is what I said in the first place.

The intention of your words were unclear; I understood your statement: "I guess I don't see why it's preferable to have them euthanized." as asking why it would be preferable to have a dog euthanized than be given a good home. It's not, as I said.

I would prefer if less dogs--ideally none--were euthanized. So, given the choice today, I would adopt from the shelter even if it meant a breeder dog would instead be euthanized. The breeder would not make any money on his/her product, so given no other critieria other than "shelter" or "breeder" dog, the shelter one would win my home due to that reason alone.

Paint me in a corner, but my color comes back.

[Rosebud 0]

Eventually most breeders (the other 90%, per Rosebud) will stop breeding if they are no longer making money.

_______

I think backyard breeding will always exist. There are the people that will stop because of money but you will never eliminate the people that want to breed their dog because "it is their nature", they want their kids to experience the puppies birth, they want offspring of their dog because they like him/her.

These people drive me loopy and up the flipping wall!!!!!

At this point, I am just ranting because they make me mad.

[Nightingale 0]

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But, if it is_not_from the 10% (maybe only 5%!) that are reputable, they are keeping the breeder in the business of breeding and thus supporting the status quo of the number of homeless pets being euthanized instead of helping to reduce it.

That's why I specifically mentioned in my above post that we need to educate the public on responsible breeding practices to help reduce the homeless pet population. (and responsible pet ownership! Buying a dog on a whim in a parking lot is not a responsible thing to do.)

PetCo and PetSmart have done a lot to educate the public about puppy mills and promote rescue adoptions. I'd like to see other pet stores follow suit, and adopt a campaign not only to educate about the puppy mills, but to educate about the problems of "backyard breeding".

And to answer your above question, the backyard breeders and puppy mills are largely breeding for profit. Most backyard breeders do it once or twice and figure out that it costs more than it pays, particularly if there are pregnancy complications or they have trouble selling the puppies. However, in their once or twice breeding, they've probably contributed to the pet problem, because in general, they won't take their dogs back to keep them out of a shelter, don't sell them spayed/neutered, don't interview the future owners, don't breed with good temperament in mind, and don't screen for diseases.

If you're not buying a dog with a champion pedigree, you're better off saving your money and getting a shelter dog or rescue dog of the same breed. You're taking the same chances with a backyard breeder as you would a rescue, you won't be encouraging backyard breeding, and you'll have the support of the rescue if there are any problems.

And if I didn't get my dog from a good breeder, I wouldn't have one right now. I knew I wanted a papillon, and the pap rescue had a three year waiting list of people wanting them. They're not a very common breed, and I wanted that breed specifically. Honestly, I was not too worried about contributing to the homeless papillon population, given the exhaustive list of people wanting one. I made a donation to the rescue to help with their work, and contacted several papillon breeders that were referred to me by the rescue, which was a great resource.

Also, there is a difference between "extreme expectations", which are not good for anyone, and simply doing a lot of breed research and selecting the one that is most appropriate to your lifestyle. Both you and the dog will be happier that way. Don't buy a Siberian Husky if you want a lapdog, and don't buy a yorkie or papillon if you want a dog that will run marathons with you. All breeds are not the same, and too many people buy a dog because they're such a cute puppy and they have no idea whether the needs of the dog match the needs of the person.

[PLFXpert 0]

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I think backyard breeding will always exist

I tend to agree, but subscribe to the theory it would only exist on a far lesser scale. A far lesser scale would be wonderful! The trend is already shifting toward the uniqueness (and health--there it is again) of a mutt or mix.

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the people that want to breed their dog because "it is their nature", they want their kids to experience the puppies birth, they want offspring of their dog because they like him/her.

This could be taken word for word from an HSUS pamphlet about rescuing/adopting in the FAQ. Education is a great solution--not an infallible one--that would change the mind of such people.

Paint me in a corner, but my color comes back.

[PLFXpert 0]

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I knew I wanted a papillon, and the pap rescue had a three year waiting list of people wanting them. They're not a very common breed, and I wanted that breed specifically.

The former is unfortunate.

Had you been willing to meet halfway, I would have brought you one. My neighbors just rescued one from a nearby papillon rescue--the very same one I pointed my parents toward when they were looking again (all their/our previous papillons came from pet stores. )

Where there is a will, there is a way. One can check breed-specific rescues nationwide on Petfinder.com, and I would bet many would be willing to work something out.



You wanted a papillon and no other dog would do so you did what you needed to find a good breeder and get one. I understand that--I, too, am a woman who knows what she wants and gets it. The difference between you and me, in this case, is I wanted to give a dog a home and prevent one from being euthanized whereas your good breeder (correct me, if I am wrong) would not have euthanized your papillon had you not adopted him.

I went into open-minded (which was scary for me at first--having grown up only with papillons and a miniature schnauzer), but with my own absolutely-necessary criteria: He or she had to be submissive to the king of the house--Sabre, my beloved cat.

Paint me in a corner, but my color comes back.

[Nightingale 0]

No, the breeder would not have euthanized him.

LOL, it never occurred to me to look for a dog on DZ.com. I will definitely keep your offer in mind when I have room for another dog. Most rescues require meeting with the rescue personally and sometimes having a home inspection, though, which is why the rescue here referred me to a breeder when they couldn't help me. This goes to what a previous poster was saying about rescues being too strict in their rehoming requirements and making adoption difficult.

And yes, my cat is king of the house. The dog knows that wherever he happens to be in the pack hierarchy, anything that has claws and hisses totally outranks him and will whup his ass on occasion just to remind him of his place.

And remember, there's more ways to save homeless pets than just adopting one.

[PLFXpert 0]

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This goes to what a previous poster was saying about rescues being too strict in their rehoming requirements and making adoption difficult.

I appreciate a certain level of requirements (though, I have not personally seen or read about any "making adoption difficult"). I_have_however read about breeders with such home inspection and meeting personally requirements. Ironically, I think those are the better or "reputable" breeders.

Paint me in a corner, but my color comes back.

[Nightingale 0]

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This goes to what a previous poster was saying about rescues being too strict in their rehoming requirements and making adoption difficult.

I appreciate a certain level of requirements (though, I have not personally seen or read about any "making adoption difficult"). I_have_however read about breeders with such home inspection and meeting personally requirements. Ironically, I think those are the better or "reputable" breeders.

Yes, but the breeder was willing to work with me on things (a home inspection prior to meeting the dog wasn't feasable, as she was out of state and when she was in state to interview me, I was in the process of buying my home), and the rescues were not. One non-local rescue actually asked me to fly a volunteer out and put them up in a hotel room so they could personally inspect my home to be considered for a dog. And on top of that they wanted several hundred for the dog. Ouch. That's insane. I even offered references from my family vet, and it was a no-go.

If a local rescue has the breed you want, that's the way to go. I had way too much trouble with the rescues that weren't in my area. They made it not worth the hassle.

Rescues, like breeders, need to balance the needs of the animal with the needs of the future owner and recognize that bending sometimes is in the best interest of the animal.