heftee 0 #1 January 5, 2005 Does anyone still use bungee PCs? Just wondering ... ------------------------- "If you've never jumped out of a plane, the best way I can describe it is it feels as if you've just jumped out of a freakin' plane." David Whitley (Orlando Sentinel) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GravityGirl 0 #2 January 5, 2005 I hope not. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Peace and Blue Skies! Bonnie ==>Gravity Gear! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #3 January 5, 2005 I gave a jumper an old kill line PC I had laying around to replace his bungee about a year ago. That's the last bungee PC I've seen. IMO, his safety was well worth giving away a PC I had.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dragon2 0 #4 January 5, 2005 Yep. Parachutes de France's Atom used to come with a bungee system, no idea if the newest Atoms still have them (at the moment, the PdF website seems to be in French only). But there are a fair lot of them around anywhere you see older Atoms... ciel bleu, Saskia Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
councilman24 36 #5 January 5, 2005 Got a friend who still loves his. Nothing wrong with proper set up. And he doesn't swoop.I'm old for my age. Terry Urban D-8631 FAA DPRE Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lazy 0 #6 January 5, 2005 QuoteDoes anyone still use bungee PCs? Just wondering ... yup I use a bungee pc Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
usskydiver 0 #7 January 5, 2005 I know a 3 time world and 7 time national champion that still uses one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #8 January 5, 2005 I got one in the other day with limiting tapes. The bungee could stretch out to about double the length it should have been able too. I couldn't believe it worked at all. Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Brains 2 #9 January 5, 2005 I had heard of them and never saw one till i was at nationals this past year and saw two of them. A friend of mine was packing for a few teams and i had to look twice at it and i asked why? He said they shouldn't be used on those canopy's (stilleto i think) Can someone tell me why they shouldn't be used? Never look down on someone, unless they are going down on you. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GravityGirl 0 #10 January 5, 2005 They need more airspeed to inflate than a Kill Line. So hop 'n pops and such can cause pilot chute hesitation. That can lead to poor body position on deployment, if you look over the shoulder. Also, the bungee wears fairly quickly and become inefective. I used to jump one a few years back. One hop 'n 'pop from 2k at night scared the crap out of me. My final straw for becoming anti-bungee was a fatality at Skydive Lake Tahoe. Before his jump his packer, asked him WTF this was. Referring to his PC. Basically he said it was a piece of shit that he has been meaning to switch to a Kill Line. He was doing a speed jump where he lost altitude awareness, flared out late, chucked his Bungee PC. It hesitated, he fired his reserve which opened hard enough to tear his aorta. Granted it was a combination of poor gear maintenance and altitude awareness. But still. Any "factor" we can eliminate is worth eliminating. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Peace and Blue Skies! Bonnie ==>Gravity Gear! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelel01 1 #11 January 5, 2005 Could someone explain the problem with them? I got one when I bought my used canopy (don't ask why it came with it), and my rigger balked, but he didn't explain why. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GravityGirl 0 #12 January 5, 2005 My two biggest pet peeves. - Takes more airspeed to inflate and actually extract your pilot chute. So hop 'n pops can cause pilot chute to hesitate. What do you do when you pitch and don't feel anything happen? Look over your shoulder? Do you jump a small canopy? When your canopy deploys while you are looking over your shoulder, how do you think it will open? - They wear out and the bungee looses it's elasticity. Then you just have a regular pilot chute.... if you are lucky. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Peace and Blue Skies! Bonnie ==>Gravity Gear! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Liemberg 0 #13 January 5, 2005 QuoteThey wear out and the bungee looses it's elasticity. Then you just have a regular pilot chute.... if you are lucky. I fail to see what else I could get from the bungee losing it's elasticity - provided the original pieces of tape in the midle of the PC are still intact. AFAIK F111 PC's may loose their porosity a lot faster than the bungee looses its elasticity and that can mean the PC stays collapsed... (Everybody does know that the opening of a bungee PC *starts* with a collapsed pilotchute which inflates through airspeed and collapses again once the airspeed is reduced in parachute flight? Well now you do ) "Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci A thousand words... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 3 #14 January 5, 2005 QuoteMy two biggest pet peeves. - Takes more airspeed to inflate and actually extract your pilot chute. So hop 'n pops can cause pilot chute to hesitate. What do you do when you pitch and don't feel anything happen? Look over your shoulder? Do you jump a small canopy? When your canopy deploys while you are looking over your shoulder, how do you think it will open? - They wear out and the bungee looses it's elasticity. Then you just have a regular pilot chute.... if you are lucky. If they are built right, they take about 40 KIAS to inflate. I only know one plane that flies jump run at that speed. Also if they are built right, when and if the bungee wears out, you have a standard PC. They should not be used on smaller, high performance canopies because they can inflate and distort the top skin. This will effect the way the canopy flies. On larger, F-111 canopies they are just fine. I have been making and jumping them for well over 15 years. If someone deployed at a speed that would tear his aorta do you really think his P/C hesitated. At speeds around 100 KIAS it will inflate as fast as any pilot chute. At speeds above 150 or so almost all PC's start to loosed their effectiveness. The fine mesh is not able to pass air at that speed and it starts to collapse. Don't blame equipment for causing a fatlity that was jumper error. SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GravityGirl 0 #15 January 5, 2005 I'm not blaming equipment, and I stated that in my post. It was a series of events. I'm just saying that we can eliminate unecissary factors. And yes, I belive that PC was one small factor in a series of factors. We evaluated the eye witness accounts as well as the jumpers Pro Track to help understand the chain of events. And for whatever reason, his pilot chute did hesitate. And it had a history of hesitation. Would things have turned out differently with a different PC? I don't know that answer. But I do know that I am more dilligent in maintaining my own pilot chute as well as selling gear that I feel is superior. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Peace and Blue Skies! Bonnie ==>Gravity Gear! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GravityGirl 0 #16 January 5, 2005 Quote(Everybody does know that the opening of a bungee PC *starts* with a collapsed pilotchute which inflates through airspeed and collapses again once the airspeed is reduced in parachute flight? Well now you do ) I am fully aware of how a bungee is designed and functions. Thanks for that. QuoteI fail to see what else I could get from the bungee losing it's elasticity - provided the original pieces of tape in the midle of the PC are still intact. Poor openings? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Peace and Blue Skies! Bonnie ==>Gravity Gear! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelel01 1 #17 January 5, 2005 Ok, now another question: I have a ZP pc, and my friend just went to buy one, and they frowned at her and said she should get f111. What are the pros and cons of each? Why would you want an f111 pc? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Liemberg 0 #18 January 5, 2005 QuoteI am fully aware of how a bungee is designed and functions. Thanks for that. In retrospect it indeed *sounded* as if I doubted that - I apologize. Then again, this is a public forum and other readers might lack that specific knowledge. But: why would you get poor openings? the elastic starts to do its job *after* the opening, i.e. if it doesn't do its job you might lose on flight characteristics - but your parachute is flying, nonetheless... "Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci A thousand words... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GravityGirl 0 #19 January 5, 2005 From personal experience and customer feedback. Any pilot chute hesiation can cause the jumper to look back or become momentarily unstable. Usually at the moment the pilot chute decides to do it's job. Maybe not noticable on larger parachutes, but on highly loaded eliptical parachtes, that could mean a spinner and/or a cutaway. Just after seeing minor issues come up, I had started to develope a dislike for the system. I wouldn't ground you for jumping a bungee, but when your maintenance or replacement time comes up, I would question your decision if you want to buy another. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Peace and Blue Skies! Bonnie ==>Gravity Gear! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GravityGirl 0 #20 January 5, 2005 QuoteOk, now another question: I have a ZP pc, and my friend just went to buy one, and they frowned at her and said she should get f111. What are the pros and cons of each? Why would you want an f111 pc? What kind of rig? Some manufacturers have designed their gear with an F111 and some ZP. I like to stick with the manufacturers suggestions for that one. Unless I see continued "issues" in the field. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Peace and Blue Skies! Bonnie ==>Gravity Gear! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Liemberg 0 #21 January 5, 2005 QuoteWhat are the pros and cons of each? Other than F111 wears quicker and ZP is more slippery (under all circumstances you want the pilot to stay inside the pocket untill YOU get it out...)? ZP pilot can be of smaller size compared to F111 - due to different permeability, but I wouldn't know if that is a pro or a con - since inflated, they should work about the same (i.e. a smaller ZP / bigger F111/ same drag). Important however is to look at it as a parachute-system; what might work perfectly in one combination of bag, bridle, container, lines and parachute might work not so good in another and could even be dangerous. Base jumpers found out (the hard way) that the *big* pilotchute for low jumps / quick extraction, proved to be dangerous when you opened the same combination after five seconds of freefall... YMMV "Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci A thousand words... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Liemberg 0 #22 January 5, 2005 QuoteAny pilot chute hesiation can cause the jumper to look back or become momentarily unstable. Ah, but then it is youthfull impatience, NOT the bungee, which causes the problem... Rest asured, I wouldn't want one on a highly loaded eliptical. My ZP 170 however had one for years. Nobody wanted to borrow that rig for a hop & pop - how can that be bad ? "Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci A thousand words... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydiverek 56 #23 January 5, 2005 QuoteOther than F111 wears quicker and ZP is more slippery (under all circumstances you want the pilot to stay inside the pocket untill YOU get it out...)? In this case the more slipery PC might be more beneficial: http://bigairsportz.com/art-pilotchute.php A more slippery PC is more likely to be pulled out by a flapping bridle and so less likely to result in a horseshoe mal. I'd prefer a premature to a horseshoe... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dragon2 0 #24 January 5, 2005 Well if you jump a bungee, you prolly shouldn't be doing 2k hopnpops, at nighttime or otherwise... For me, that was the reason to get a killline pc when my bungee needed replacing and the F111 was getting old anyway. My spectre 150 took 1000ft to open from a hopnpop, wasn't real happy with that. My current spectre 135 still doesn't go fast enough to re-inflate the pc. Don't know what the "limit" is for canopy size or WL, personally on anything 150 or smaller (WL 1 for me) I want a collapsible or retractable PC, of whatever type, but no idea when the bungee will stop working should I pull a hookturn (which I don't anyway). If I jumped a stiletto 135 it would still be alright with a bungee though. It's not the canopy type per se, it's the airspeed you can get. A reinflating pc all of a sudden would be bad, esp close to the ground. But there are thousands bungee pc's still around, the system is not that bad. At least you cannot forget to cock it! And there is a mod you can do to fix the re-inflating problem I think. You still need the airspeed, which at terminal should not be a problem (if you dropped a shoulder to look, well, why did you?), but with a bungee don't immediately throw the pc on a hopnpop but wait a couple secs untill you've gained some speed. At least that was what I was told. Didn't like that (if I had to get out at or below 2k I would've pulled silver with that canopy and that pc) so I switched... ciel bleu, Saskia Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Liemberg 0 #25 January 5, 2005 QuoteI'd prefer a premature to a horseshoe... depends on where you are in space and time... (Like in the DOOR of say, a Cessna 206, with your rig already outside the airplane? )... Other than that, Brian packs his pilotchute the same as I do... now aint that a coincidence? AND: when your bag comes out before your pilotchute (and you live to tell the tale) you might want to rethink tension on the closing loop / replacement when worn, etcetera - NOT an extra slippery pilotchute to make up for poor maintenance...i.e. prevent horseshoes before you 'solve them' (and bring down a tail-less airplane in the proces) "Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci A thousand words... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
