Ideas on how to teach something "abstract"

[MikeJD 0]

I've worked with people like this, and I agree with you that it's a confidence thing. She's smart enough to produce the reports, but as soon as she's faced with one her brain just shuts down - and the more time she gets it wrong, the less confidence she has that she can get it right.

So it's all about breaking the cycle. One thing's for sure - you've told her all you can. Now she has to produce the reports herself, two or three times, to prove to herself that she can do it. After that, she should be fine.

I don't think it's enough for her to reiterate the theory to you - it's like, I dunno, learning to pack parachutes. You only really learn by doing it.

Maybe you've done this already (your list of strategies looks pretty exhaustive!), but - assuming you're at the same location - have you tried sitting down with her while she's creating the report, and getting her to explain to you what she's doing at each step while she does it? Have your Powerpoint pack to hand so she can refer to it as she goes. You should provide as little input as you possibly can, and only really help her if she genuinely gets stuck.

It's yet more time invested on your part, but since you're saying that there's no way to take the work off her (or her off the work) then it might be worth it.

[Nataly 38]

She is not in the same office, but I have gone over there with the objective of reducing useless/duplicated tasks. It was a useful exercise on many fronts but not for these...

She *does* produce the reports on her own, but when she's done she usually calls me to check them... And sure enough, they are FULL of problems... I never correct them myself. I don't touch them. The last thing she needs is for someone to add/delete stuff for her - this will not help.

I don't know the exact figures that she should put in, but I can spot things that seem obviously wrong to me... For example, I know from talking to our commercial guys that we have sold 3 helicopters in the previous month. I therefore expect to see data on 3 helicopters in the reports, but only 2 helicopters are in there... I couldn't say what price it was bought and sold for, the delivery date, the payment terms, et cetera - I don't have access to this info. But I know it's missing the 3rd helicopter!!

Or she will put figures for a helicopter paid for in USD and the Euro price is higher than the USD price. I don't know what rate the bank used to convert the funds, but I know that 1.00 USD is roughly equal to 0.75 EUR so either her calculation is backwards, or she has the currency symbols going the wrong way, or something, but for sure it's wrong... Anyway, she should not be calculating anything - the real amounts can be found on the bank statements...

Or she will put the delivery date as being earlier than the payment date (which is not typically the way we work). Or she will have "anticipated costs/repairs" as higher than the sale value of the item. Again, this makes no sense... Would you pay for $1000 of repairs on a car that's only worth $200 afterwards?? No, of course not. So is the typo that the repairs are in fact only $10.00 or that the sale price is really $2000?? Or both??

When I say this to her she understands perfectly, but somehow if you turn it into report format all logic goes out the window...

"There is no problem so bad you can't make it worse."
- Chris Hadfield
« Sors le martinet et flagelle toi indigne contrôleuse de gestion. »
- my boss

[Andy9o8 0]

Sounds like this chick needs a helicopter mom.

[NWFlyer 2]

Nataly

For a lot of reasons, sacking her is not the solution - she is extremely good at her job except for this part. Even if she *were* totally useless (she is not), it's still irrelevant because she is staying.

So assign the reports to someone else. Why is that not a viable option? It sounds like now you basically have two people (her and you) producing the reports; why is reassigning the one task to someone else not a more efficient solution? Assign her something else that she's good at.

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[Nataly 38]

NWFlyer

***
For a lot of reasons, sacking her is not the solution - she is extremely good at her job except for this part. Even if she *were* totally useless (she is not), it's still irrelevant because she is staying.

So assign the reports to someone else. Why is that not a viable option? It sounds like now you basically have two people (her and you) producing the reports; why is reassigning the one task to someone else not a more efficient solution? Assign her something else that she's good at.

Again, she is the only person who can produce the reports - she is the only person who has access to all the information. She is also the only administrator in that office. We are a small business. NO ONE ELSE can do these reports.

"There is no problem so bad you can't make it worse."
- Chris Hadfield
« Sors le martinet et flagelle toi indigne contrôleuse de gestion. »
- my boss

[Andy9o8 0]

Nataly

******
For a lot of reasons, sacking her is not the solution - she is extremely good at her job except for this part. Even if she *were* totally useless (she is not), it's still irrelevant because she is staying.

So assign the reports to someone else. Why is that not a viable option? It sounds like now you basically have two people (her and you) producing the reports; why is reassigning the one task to someone else not a more efficient solution? Assign her something else that she's good at.

Again, she is the only person who can produce the reports - she is the only person who has access to all the information. She is also the only administrator in that office. We are a small business. NO ONE ELSE can do these reports.

Then, with all due respect, it's not factually accurate to describe her as "very good at her job". She's much like many people are - good at some aspects of her job, lousy at other aspects of it. A job is a single entirety, comprised of all of its parts, not just some of them. If you can't peel-off the one thing she's lousy at from her job description, then the sum total of her competence level, given that particular overall job description, is, at best, "mediocre".

[Nataly 38]

Andy9o8

Then, with all due respect, it's not factually accurate to describe her as "very good at her job". She's much like many people are - good at some aspects of her job, lousy at other aspects of it. A job is a single entirety, comprised of all of its parts, not just some of them. If you can't peel-off the one thing she's lousy at from her job description, then the sum total of her competence level, given that particular overall job description, is, at best, "mediocre".

I have to disagree... She does MANY things extremely well and this one thing not well at all. And given these reports are *not* the most important aspects of her role, I think it's fair to describe her as "very good at her job." No one is perfect, and you can be great whilst still having flaws/weaknesses.

"There is no problem so bad you can't make it worse."
- Chris Hadfield
« Sors le martinet et flagelle toi indigne contrôleuse de gestion. »
- my boss

[Croc 0]

I'm going back a long way here but I remember that Jean Piaget, who studied the development of intellect in children, had stong evidence that abstract reasoning cannot be taught; either you get it or you don't. It is certainly evident that some people never progress that far, regardless how much education they have.

In other words, stupid can't be fixed.

"Here's a good specimen of my own wisdom. Something is so, except when it isn't so."

Charles Fort, commenting on the many contradictions of astronomy

[Squeak 17]

Croc

I'm going back a long way here but I remember that Jean Piaget, who studied the development of intellect in children, had stong evidence that abstract reasoning cannot be taught; either you get it or you don't. It is certainly evident that some people never progress that far, regardless how much education they have.

In other words, stupid can't be fixed.

apparently neither can ignorance

You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?

[Andy9o8 0]

Sounds like all conceivable options are either ineffective or are basically foreclosed. Seems that the only remaining options are: live with it, leave, or kill her.

[FlyingRhenquest 1]

Andy9o8

Sounds like all conceivable options are either ineffective or are basically foreclosed. Seems that the only remaining options are: live with it, leave, or kill her.

Does it always devolve into a discussion about killing your co-workers, or has someone been reading too many BOFH stories again?

I'm trying to teach myself how to set things on fire with my mind. Hey... is it hot in here?

[Andy9o8 0]

FlyingRhenquest

***Sounds like all conceivable options are either ineffective or are basically foreclosed. Seems that the only remaining options are: live with it, leave, or kill her.

Does it always devolve into a discussion about killing your co-workers, or has someone been reading too many BOFH stories again?

Pssst... The third "option" was to designed to bring attention to the first two.

[ryoder 1,397]

FlyingRhenquest

***Sounds like all conceivable options are either ineffective or are basically foreclosed. Seems that the only remaining options are: live with it, leave, or kill her.

Does it always devolve into a discussion about killing your co-workers, or has someone been reading too many BOFH stories again?

Isn't it an attorney's duty to explain *all* the options to his clientele?

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[adagen 0]

Can you get someone else to explain things to her? It could be that the logic is so clear to you that it blinds you to what she finds difficult, and the more frustrating it becomes, the harder it is to pick up her perspective.

How often does she produce the reports? If weekly or monthly that may be too infrequent so between production runs she forgets what she has learned. If so, is there any way of having the reports built up daily so there's less forgetting time in between?

That said, I have come across a couple of people who are completely number blind, and with them I never did find a way of helping them get meanings from numbers.

Anne

[bob.dino 0]

Is she scares of fucking up? Is she scared of the reports? Is she scared of you? Any of those could be an issue.

On another note, does she understand the report output format? I'm guessing not, or she wouldn't have so many obvious errors. Maybe you could have your report output in two formats: a sensible format which this lady can use to cross-check her work, and separately the format your investors require. That way, once she's happy with the data, it's just a matter of a new visualisation of already-correct data.

[Nataly 38]

bob.dino

Is she scares of fucking up? Is she scared of the reports? Is she scared of you? Any of those could be an issue.

On another note, does she understand the report output format? I'm guessing not, or she wouldn't have so many obvious errors. Maybe you could have your report output in two formats: a sensible format which this lady can use to cross-check her work, and separately the format your investors require. That way, once she's happy with the data, it's just a matter of a new visualisation of already-correct data.

I don't want to add steps to the process, but to answer your first questions, yes, yes and no... She is afraid of the reports and she is afraid of getting them wrong, but (thankfully!) she is most certainly not afraid of me!!! In fact, she relies on me a lot to "hold her hand" through the process. That is what I want to get *away* from. I would like her to produce coherent reports *without* feeling the need to call me each time. I'm certain her fear of the reports DO hinder her... I'm not sure how to address this problem as I have done a great deal to make the reports more user-friendly and easier to fill-in.

adagen: No, other people have not tried to explain to her. Perhaps that is a good idea. Perhaps it's TOO obvious to me, and therefore hard to put myself in her shoes and explain in a way that makes sense to her. Also, the reports are supposed to be produced monthly, but the investors only require them 4 times per year. It does happen that some months get skipped because no one is asking for the reports... So forgetting between each reporting period could be part of the problem. However, this information is CONSTANTLY changing, so updating in "real time" is not viable. Perhaps we should insist more that they are at least done/correct once per month, though.

My boss thinks it's not a massive issue, because it's only 3 days of her time, 4 times per year. However, I think it's worse than that... I think it's more like 4-5 days 4 times per year, but you have to double that figure because it's not just her time - it's mine as well. That is one entire month of salary for her and one entire month of salary for me. Seems like a big waste in my books, especially for a report that should take something like an half an hour to an hour per month (1-2 days per year total - 3 if we run into issues)...

"There is no problem so bad you can't make it worse."
- Chris Hadfield
« Sors le martinet et flagelle toi indigne contrôleuse de gestion. »
- my boss