Careful with the border guards....

[mrbiceps 0]

Dont know where u get the idea that i am going to raise "hell". I have travelled internationally a number of times with my scuba gear on me. Nearly every time i do get asked to open up my carry on luggage which i am quite happy to do. I happily remove the gear which is mostly regs and alot of hoses and show the airport people and they are happy so i put it all back and say thank you and move on.
So your telling me that if i turn up at a us border check and a couple of guards with guns who know nothing about skydiving gear tell me they are going to privately tamper with my rig and i simply say "look guys that rig is my life i would like to please be present with you when you inspect it". If they said no i would certainly ask if i could speak with your supervisor please.
I am and have been on the other side checking peoples bags and belongings for along time. Before i started skydiving and having known absolutely nothing about a skydiving rig if i had this scenario happen to me i would certainly understand that this is life saving equipment that i know nothing about and its a fair request that this guy is asking.
If a border guard gets upset about a request like this then they need to go back to school and learn some common sense.

[JerryBaumchen 1,048]

Hi mrb,

Quote

"I would have stood my ground and told them that no one touches my rig unless i am there to watch them."

"a 2 bit security guard"

"look guys that rig is my life i would like to please be present with you when you inspect it".

"i would certainly ask if i could speak with your supervisor please."

Looks to me like you have changed your tune.

Be nice and they'll let you in; be shi*** and they can keep you out.

See how easy it is?

JerryBaumchen

[hackish 8]

It is definitely not realistic to expect them to have some order not to search anything in your car, but it would be nice if they could have allowed me to be present while they were dicking with it.

Weather here isn't going to be great tomorrow so I'm not going to jump it anyway but what if they inspect someone's rig, pull the cutaway out a bit then kink it going back in? That sort of thing might not be caught on a regular gear check.

There are many what-ifs and what wuffo is going to know how to handle a rig anyway? Why did they pull the cutaway? Maybe it looked like a pocket that could be opened. Maybe they wondered if something was inside the pillow who knows? Think about the first time you ever saw a rig - hard to guess what everything was and what everything did...

-Michael

[dorbie 0]

Some of these comments are laughable.

Swinging your dick around at customs is a good way to get your rig opened and you delayed, perhaps searched in ways that will re-educate you on the real nature of the traveller - border agent relationship.

I wonder if this is real or if the bavado would evaporate without the keyboard.

You have no right to take any closed container across any border unless you're a diplomat. Showing the slightest concern over a search will get you searched. Demanding to be present may be the best way to ensure you're not.

If you don't want to run the risk don't take your "life saving equipment" across a border, or be prepared to have a rigger check it out afterwards.

TSA (for example) had guidelines the last I checked, but that's not going to grant anyone immunity from a thorough search.

[aussiechick 0]

I've taken my rig through customs countless times over the years, and have learnt that by far the most effective way of getting through quickly, and with as little hassle as possible is to be polite.

At the end of the day, they have all the power, and sometimes they are looking for an excuse to be assholes.
Don't give them one, and usually it's easy.
If it means that you need your gear to be fully checked afterwards, so be it.
It's part of travel.

A friend of mine had to learn the hard way.
A customs officer insisted he open the reserve (which of course he refused, but perhaps not as nicely as he could have) in the end he was given no choice, so he punched out the reserve directly into the custom officer's face and gave him a bloody nose!
This of course was followed up by an interrogation, which involved a full cavity search!

[timmyfitz 0]

Quote

Dont know where u get the idea that i am going to raise "hell".

Because you said this....

Quote

I would have stood my ground and told them that no one touches my rig unless i am there to watch them. If they are not happy with this then go and get the supervisor. My rig is my life and no one touches it unless i am watching them...

Bolding is mine cause it is funny.

[aheavenlytiger 0]

US Customs is now Customs and Border Protection, an agency under the Department of Homeland Security. I should know, they pay me to do inspections every day at work. CBP is now an amalgamation of what once were front-line immigration, customs, and agriculture inspectors. We have very broad search authority and can essentially inspect any person or their belongings entering the country at any time. I work at an airport (a very large airport at that), and things are done slightly different there than at the land border, but some things hold true regardless. While the traveler is generally present during baggage exams in the airport (with some exceptions) that is not always the case at the land ports of entry. First, given our search authority, we can inspect basically anything we want in the quest for contraband. This includes x-rays, opening things, drilling into items, dismantling or disassembling things, probing items, and pretty much anything else that can be imagined. Outbound searches are also conducted, but less frequently and usually with different focus. We do have the authority to search aircraft both entering and exiting the country. Those searches include opening or removing panels or accessing areas that will result in the necessity for an inspection by an aircraft mechanic/pilot before than aircraft can go anywhere. It is the nature of the job. Contraband is smuggled in some amazingly creative places, so almost everything is potentially suspect until proven otherwise. If you felt you mistreated, the issue should have been addressed with a supervisory officer at the time. If nothing else, they may have been able to answer some questions for you.

While I understand your concerns for your safety following the inspection, I also have an intimate understanding of the concerns of the agency. I honestly see very little wrong with the inspection as you are describing it. CBP Officers do not come into contact with skydiving equipment as commonly as TSA does, given we do not deal with domestic travel. Unless you are lucky enough to be inspected by an officer who is also a skydiver, I can pretty much understand why concern was raised. In all honesty, I would never jump a rig after even the possibility of having it been inspected without giving it a very through inspection myself. If anything seemed even slightly amiss I would get as detailed as necessary, even if that meant a reserve repack or inspection my a rigger. It’s ultimately your responsibility to ensure your gear is in proper condition to jump.

[riggerpaul 1]

Quote

drilling into items, dismantling or disassembling things, probing items, and pretty much anything else that can be imagined.

(Asked only in the interest of a more complete understanding. Knowledge is power.)

Do you need any particular level of probable cause before destructive inspection is authorized?

[aheavenlytiger 0]

In a nutshell, not really, no. Our search authority allows for searches of people, their baggage, cargo and means of transportation to ensure all entry/exit requirements are met. Very few travelers are actually inspected when compared to the total number traveling, but both random inspections and inspections based on varying sources of intelligence are performed. "Inspection" sometimes includes accessing internal components of items, be it a salami, suitcase, computer, block of wood, panels/compartments of a car or whatever. Most officers will attempt to be as minimally destructive as possible while still accomplishing what they set out to do. Usually this means taking apart something the way it was assembled, cutting only a small portion of the item, or drilling in an inconspicuous location. Sometimes, however, this cannot be done. A personal search (of the traveler) is a different matter, and anything beyond an immediate patdown for officer/traveler safety has more rigid requirements as to what level of suspicion or probable cause is required and what the passenger will be entitled to at each stage. Regardless of what is being done, the process should be explained to the traveler as events occur. That may or may not have happened in the case this thread stemmed from, but explaining that the vehicle and its contents would be searched would be sufficient to include the rig that was inside of it. In the same way that when an airline damages a bag, a traveler has the option to formally request reimbursement from the government for damages incurred during an inspection. Once said request has been submitted, the government also has the right to then deny that request.

I've attached a link from the public CBP webpage that you may want to look at if you want some more information. It provides plain English information intended for use by travelers. 19 U.S.C. 1467 and 19 C.F.R. 162.6 are the actual laws that provide our search authority. http://cbp.gov/xp/cgov/travel/vacation/kbyg/

[aheavenlytiger 0]

I do have a suggestion for those who are traveling internationally with rigs...

If you are inspected, especially if you are not present for the duration, do try to speak to a supervisor and the officers involved to find out what may have been done with your rig during the inspection. Pointy metal probes are used commonly to poke around inside objects and it would be tough to tell if a canopy was punched through if they accessed it from inbetween flaps on the container. I would like to think that something like that wouldn't happen, but almost anything is possible when people are involved

[jimmytavino 16]

excellent set of posts..
thanks aheavenlytiger...

now we can see the issue from both sides...

i would guess that there is usually NO malice intended from the agents, who are doing their job.

and so,,, the "traveler" would do well to exhibit the same sort of respect and patience..
What I have gleaned from this thread....

"if the jumper wants to be belligerent,,, the agent can be the same,,, X 5...."

courtesy and cooperation can go a looong way...

jt

[monkycndo 0]

If I check my gear, I have a copy of the FAA regs regarding inspection and my contact info sitting on top of my rig in case they want to inspect. In large print, it requests they call me to witness/provide assistance or to answer questions during inspection. Is there anything we can/should do at border checkpoints that would help reduce the risk to our gear and make it easier for you folks to do your job?

50 donations so far. Give it a try.

You know you want to spank it
Jump an Infinity

[aheavenlytiger 0]

JT- I don't know of anyone will outright say that they are being destructive simply to maliciously destroy something. We have a just have a job to do. However, I will admitt that sometimes it can be "fun" to get inside something when necessary. I once had to shatter a pretty crappy statue to get at the inadmissible sausage that was being smuggled inside of it. The meat has to be incinerated as per USDA guidelines and that couldn't be done from within the statue and there was no other way to get to the sausage. The statue's only purpose was to hide the meat. Those passengers also received a $300.00 civli penalty for failing to declare the meat and concealment. I know its off topic, but if anyone is going to travel with anything edible, be careful, because that is the penalty for a first offense. Repeat violations go up from there.

Monky- Beyond what you are doing, not much.

In the airport environment, baggage is generally checked in the presence of the passengers (with rare exceptions). The information you are providing with your rig would be more likely used by the TSA screeners than a CBP Officer. If you are at an airport port of entry (in most countries), it should be fairly easy to explain to the customs inspectors what you have in your baggage and whatnot. At the landborder, things are different and you may not always be present for the entirety of the search if they select your vehicle for an in depth exam. In that case, you can do your best to explain what oyu have in the vehicle before you are escorted away from it, as they should be asking you if there is anything in the vehicle they should be aware of (more geared towards contraband, but its the best chance you have to get the information in). If you have serious concerns that your rig is being mishandled while you are away from it, the first point of recourse is to request a supervisor and ever so politely address the issue with them. Explaining the potenial life-ending consequences of mishandling the rig should be enough to make them understand why you are concerned. As soon as you start to become defensive or agitated, it is more than likely going to be perceived as though you are hiding something and they will only dig deeper.


That said, I've never encountered a rig while doing an inspection, and I do many of them a night. I can't recall anyone I am friendly with at work ever getting one either. Since I work midnights, most of my coworkers and I see each other more than some of the other shifts, so they all know I jump and would call me over if they were to find something they even thought was skydiving related. Closest they've gotten was an altimeter from a paraglider. Then again, they also call me over for motorcyle stuff (mosty helmets and jackets) and to put computers back together after they took them apart and can't make it go back right because it seems that I am their go-to person for those tasks as well.

Also keep in mind that frequently officers are drafted for overtime and it isn't entirely unheard of to have been working 12-16 hour shifts every day for who knows how long, along with day-off drafts. If the port you are at happens to be short staffed, well, you just work a whole lot to make up for it. Sometimes officers will just be cranky because they are damn tired and really want to be in bed as opposed to stuck sitting in an immigration booth or on a customs inspection line digging through people's underware. I would be lying is I said that I wasn't guilty of said crankiness.

We deal with people from all over the world on a daily basis, and sometimes it is incredibly frustrating. Language barriers and cultural differences make our jobs more difficult than when we are dealing with flights full af returning American tourists. Unfortunately, it is in my expereince, usually the US citizens that give the most grief about being inspected, simply because they feel as though they should be exempt from inspection because they are citizens. The solution to that problem is very simple, andis essentially this "put your baggage on the counter and open it. If you don't agree with being inspected, don't leave the country again." I've had suitcases thrown at me, luggage carts intentionally run into my legs, voodoo and santaria curses placed on me, and all sorts of other abuse by people who didn't think they should be inspected. And after all that, the inspection happens anyway.

Drugs have amazing ways of getting into the most unusual places...



Edited because things didn't make sense the first time

[aheavenlytiger 0]

Oh, and just a little fyi, the Cypres x-ray card isn't likely to do a whole lot of good when dealing with customs. I know that the x-rays we use here are quite different than those that TSA uses, and we don't get all the pretty colors all the time. Some of our machines are strictly grey-scale and we're looking at contrasts, while others we're selecting what it is going to highlight in color (food, explosives, money, etc). Either way, the picture is not going to look a whole lot like that card and will probably look like something of interest to someone who doesn't know what is really inside of it.

[hackish 8]

Thanks for all the info. I just hope they didn't poke any metal things through my brand new canopy. Haven't had the chance since I've been so busy at work and packing all the reserves for the upcoming season. I'll be doing a complete AIR before jumping it.

Crazy the stuff done to inspect - hoping they never decide they want to disassemble or drill any holes in me as I get searched to enter the country! Don't worry sir, we'll just drill a hole in an inconspicuous place like your leg, nothing too noticeable like your forehead!!! :P

-Michael

[aheavenlytiger 0]

HAHAHAHA I think I'd aim for the armpit or give ya a second a-hole, but thats just me. Foreheads are messy, and extra ventilation is a good thing, right?

Realistically, they probably didn't probe the rig, and if they did, there would be some outward signs of it... a hole in the cordura, the flaps out of place, poptop not seated right, or something. Knowing most of the people I work with, there would be evidence. It would have been much more likely that they pull and tugged on everything that seemed like it could move trying to figure out places to conceal things. Seems like that is what happened, and I'm not surprised in the slightest that the main pin was pulled... could be anything in that compartment

[skybill 19]

Hi Tiger,
Ineresting thought or two. Considering the potential lethality of a tampered with parachute by these geeks, I'd think only once about letting my rig outa' my sight!! You're gonna jump that without doing a total, and I mean total inspection on it?? You give these guys your parachute and they take it into their innersantum past your view and God knows what they will do to it?? Replace the word parachute with "Loaded and cocked Pistol!!" in untrained hands!! Kinda like watchin' a bunch of monkeys tryin to do you-know-what to a football!! So when you get your rig back and it has "curious stains" on it you know what happened!! They just love the feel of that fresh nylon!!

SCR-2034, SCS-680

III%,
Deli-out

[aheavenlytiger 0]

Not for nothing, but I AM one of these geeks, so I have to take some offense to your comments. Our job function, while you may not like it, is necessary.

That said, if you're chosen for an inspection, you do not have a choice in the matter; every individual and their belongings are subject to inspection upon arrival and departure. If you take issue with that, don't leave the country. The attitude that you are presenting in your post is pretty much specifically the attitude that other people in this thread mentioned as being detrimental to courtesy during the inspection. Approaching an inspection with the attitude you have shown here will only lead to an aggravated inspector who may not have done 100% before, but by protesting being inspected and getting nasty, you have appeared to be hostile and potentially hiding something, therefore a more in-depth exam is now going to be done. The same would hold true for refusing to answer questions or being evasive in those answers. A thorough inspection of a piece of luggage involves removing every item from it, one by one, inspecting those items, and then inspecting the luggage itself. We are also not required to pack up any of your belongings after removal, so don't expect that to happen. As was said before, at an airport, you would probably be there (with exceptions) as the entire initial inspection is being conducted, but given the vastly different nature of an inspection on a vehicle at the landborder, that may not be the case there. The inspection procedures in the US are not all that different from most other international customs inspections, and some countries are much more rigid. The US still likes to believe that most people are law-abiding travelers, and therefore only a small percentage of those traveling are actually inspected. In the airport environment, I would venture to guess that much less than 25% total are examined (only a guess, but probably more like 10%). Many of those are random inspections.

I have a simple solution to you not trusting people with your rig... leave it home locked away in a vault where no one but you has the combination so that no one will be able to be near it when you're not there to guard it.

The only thing that I will agree with you that a very detail inspection of my rig would be warranted, but that is no different than any other time I would have my rig out of my possession in less than knowledgeable hands. Then again, I also make sure that everything is as it should be after throwing it in my car to drive up to the DZ or if I leave it out on a rack for a while at the DZ where things could be touched or dislodged.

[ntrprnr 0]

Quote

Some of these comments are laughable.

Swinging your dick around at customs is a good way to get your rig opened and you delayed, perhaps searched in ways that will re-educate you on the real nature of the traveller - border agent relationship.

I wonder if this is real or if the bavado would evaporate without the keyboard.

You have no right to take any closed container across any border unless you're a diplomat. Showing the slightest concern over a search will get you searched. Demanding to be present may be the best way to ensure you're not.

(Thank you, dz.com software for posting my quote without what I typed... Grr...)

+1

Fact is, it's the "more flies with honey than with vinegar" approach. I travel 300k miles a year, and no matter how shitty of a day I'm having, I smile to the TSA, to the HSA, to the border rent-a-cop, whatever. I smile, look them in the eye, have sympathy for a shit job brought on by asinine government knee-jerk reactions, and they look at my rig and let it go through 9 out of 10 times.

It's complete theatre - but they do have the power in that situation. Being a dick in any capacity won't help you. Want to change shit? Smile, go throught immigration/security whatever, then when you get to the International Departures lounge and are having a Vodka on the rocks, start planning your run for office to change the laws.

"swinging your dick around" will more than likely mean it winds up hitting someone who can kick you in the balls.

_______________
"Why'd you track away at 7,000 feet?"
"Even in freefall, I have commitment issues."

[skybill 19]

Quote

Not for nothing, but I AM one of these geeks, so I have to take some offense to your comments. Our job function, while you may not like it, is necessary.

That said, if you're chosen for an inspection, you do not have a choice in the matter; every individual and their belongings are subject to inspection upon arrival and departure. If you take issue with that, don't leave the country. The attitude that you are presenting in your post is pretty much specifically the attitude that other people in this thread mentioned as being detrimental to courtesy during the inspection. Approaching an inspection with the attitude you have shown here will only lead to an aggravated inspector who may not have done 100% before, but by protesting being inspected and getting nasty, you have appeared to be hostile and potentially hiding something, therefore a more in-depth exam is now going to be done. The same would hold true for refusing to answer questions or being evasive in those answers. A thorough inspection of a piece of luggage involves removing every item from it, one by one, inspecting those items, and then inspecting the luggage itself. We are also not required to pack up any of your belongings after removal, so don't expect that to happen. As was said before, at an airport, you would probably be there (with exceptions) as the entire initial inspection is being conducted, but given the vastly different nature of an inspection on a vehicle at the landborder, that may not be the case there. The inspection procedures in the US are not all that different from most other international customs inspections, and some countries are much more rigid. The US still likes to believe that most people are law-abiding travelers, and therefore only a small percentage of those traveling are actually inspected. In the airport environment, I would venture to guess that much less than 25% total are examined (only a guess, but probably more like 10%). Many of those are random inspections.

I have a simple solution to you not trusting people with your rig... leave it home locked away in a vault where no one but you has the combination so that no one will be able to be near it when you're not there to guard it.

The only thing that I will agree with you that a very detail inspection of my rig would be warranted, but that is no different than any other time I would have my rig out of my possession in less than knowledgeable hands. Then again, I also make sure that everything is as it should be after throwing it in my car to drive up to the DZ or if I leave it out on a rack for a while at the DZ where things could be touched or dislodged.

Hi Tiger,
There are 2 types of people on this planet, Skydivers and Whuffos!! 5'll get ya 10 everyone you work with is a whuff. Ya' gotta love it. Whuffs everywhere!! TSA, Border guards and Cops, all whuffs sept' maybe one or two, Oh yes and "YOU!!" Far out, at least you know something about chutes and you won't wreck hack's chute!! I don't know about these other Geeks though??

With all due respects to whoever wrote the song.......
"Whuffos to the left of me....
Geeks to the right of me....
and here I am, stuck in the middle with you!!!!"

SCR-2034, SCS-680

III%,
Deli-out

[NovaTTT 1]

Quote

With all due respects to whoever wrote the song.......
"Whuffos to the left of me....
Geeks to the right of me....
and here I am, stuck in the middle with you!!!!"

Gerry Rafferty, at the time with Stealer's Wheel.

I like your take on it, Bill.

"Even in a world where perfection is unattainable, there's still a difference between excellence and mediocrity." Gary73

[aheavenlytiger 0]

Actually, you'd lose that bet, because I do work with other people who are members of the non-whuffo population.

Frankly, I don't see why you have to be so hostile to me. I was simply presenting another side to the story. I didn't get snippy with any one here, and even managed to remain civil to you after you insulted me.

I feel like this thread is beginning to get off-base a bit. I don't think this is the appropriate place on this site to spout hostile comments about the agency or its practices. That is what the speakers corner is for.

[aheavenlytiger 0]

I also wanted to address something said earlier in the thread that I forgot to respond to. Someone mentioned diplomats not being inspected. That is mostly true, but the agriculture inspectors do have the authority to search their baggage to look for inadmissible commodities. The seizure of those items is a tricky endeavor sometimes, but usually the real diplomats are understanding. It's their spouses and underlings that make a stink. I recently encountered one diplomat (I believe he was from India, but I'm not positive after seeing a gazillion people since) who had repeatedly told his wife to stop bringing fruits, so when she did he declared them on his written declaration and was referred to agriculture for inspection. When the mangoes were found and subsequently seized, he thanked us for doing our jobs and threw it in his wife's face that he told her so.

[skybill 19]

Quote

Quote

With all due respects to whoever wrote the song.......
"Whuffos to the left of me....
Geeks to the right of me....
and here I am, stuck in the middle with you!!!!"

Gerry Rafferty, at the time with Stealer's Wheel.

I like your take on it, Bill.

Hi Tim,
Thx!!!

SCR-2034, SCS-680

III%,
Deli-out

[jimmytavino 16]

Quote

Actually, you'd lose that bet, because I do work with other people who are members of the non-whuffo population.

Frankly, I don't see why you have to be so hostile to me. I was simply presenting another side to the story. I didn't get snippy with any one here, and even managed to remain civil to you after you insulted me.

I feel like this thread is beginning to get off-base a bit. I don't think this is the appropriate place on this site to spout hostile comments about the agency or its practices. That is what the speakers corner is for.

When it comes to understanding how such inspectors, TSA people, Customs officials etc... are BOUND by their job descriptions, to perform their work....
WE are the whuffos.....

Hostility from the traveling public,,, or from skydivers,, whose claim to fame,, is that "THEY have a rig slung over their shoulders,," ( big deal ) , does little to diffuse the situation and to keep things civil...

I loved your reply Htiger.... to "leave your rig stashed in a safe".. hahahah...

i don't travel by air very much anymore.....
and seldom leave the country... so i rarely run into such issues... BUT i DO deal with people everyday, and sometimes when they are not at their best,,, and so rather than pouring gas onto a fire.. I maintain composure, stay patient, comply with requests and direction,,, and everything winds up better,,,, instead of worse....
it is NOT the 'border guards' who are the issue... it is the way that the traveling public chooses to interact with them....

peace.

jmy