JohnRich 4 #1 September 17, 2004 I'm hooking up my main canopy to a brand new rig, straight from the manufacturer (who shall remain unnamed). When connecting the new main risers, I immediately noticed a disparity in the length of the cutaway cable, which protrudes on each side (see the attached photo). One side has 7" extending beyond the riser loop, and the other side only 3.5". There doesn't seem to be any hidden slack inside the yoke on the short side, to bring it out to the same length as the other. Is this dangerous to jump? It seems like having one riser release a split-second before the other, could send me into a tumble, costing me some stability for my reserve pull. How much protrusion is acceptable in a cutaway cable? Can the 7" side be shortened to 3.5", and then everything is okay again? Should I demand a new cutaway handle? Meanwhile, I'll see if my yellow spare fits better, and use it until this issue is resolved... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BIGUN 1,055 #2 September 17, 2004 Have you tried reversing them so the longer one routes to the left 3 ring with the same results?Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflyfree 0 #3 September 17, 2004 red cables and riser cover flaps gives your Racer away hehehe...If you have checked everything and seems ok, then the cables are the problem. I'm not expert, but I would change them.If you were to cut it, they would be kind of short...jumpable but uncomfortably short. Felipe-- Blue Skies NO FEARS, NO LIMITS, NO MONEY... "A Subitánea et Improvísa Morte, Líbera nos, Domine." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 15 #4 September 17, 2004 The red cables are a dead giveaway its a Racer. They are the only ones that use that material. The difference in the length is usually a good thing with single side RSL's. The RSL side is longer so that by the time that you pull it to the release point the shorter side has already released. It prevents the Reserve from being pulled before both 3 rings are released. I can't tell it by the pictures but it sure seems like there are not hard inserts in those riser's. You might want to get hard houseings for easier cutaways. Its been a while since I've worked with a RSL equiped Racer, are they right side? Its not an issue for concern unless the shorter one has a chance of pulling through if you strech everything. In terms of tumbling on a cutaway, how slowly are you planning on pulling that cable?Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #5 September 17, 2004 The plot thickens... I compared the new red cable to my old yellow cable, and both cables are exactly the same length on both handles. When I insert the new red cables into my old rig, the protruding lengths come out identical. I've donned the the new rig, with cables inserted, tightened down the leg straps, and done some bending and stretching to make sure that all of the cable slack is out. No change. It's only when the cables are in the new rig that the protruding lengths are different. This implies that one of the tubular cable housings on the new rig is too long or too short. Right? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Remster 24 #6 September 17, 2004 Wasnt there not too long ago a theory about having the RSL side cable a little longer to ensure that the other riser was cut away before the RSL side left?Remster Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #7 September 17, 2004 QuoteHave you tried reversing them so the longer one routes to the left 3 ring with the same results? I don't understand your suggestion. You can't reverse 'em, because then the short cable wouldn't appear at all on the far side, and the long cable would hang out several feet on the near side. The one with the shorter protrusion is the longer cable, that goes around the yoke behind the neck to the far side from the cutaway handle. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #8 September 17, 2004 QuoteThe difference in the length is usually a good thing with single side RSL's. I hadn't thought of RSL's, but you make a good point. This rig does not have an RSL, however, so I don't want that feature - I want a simultaneous release on both sides. QuoteI can't tell it by the pictures but it sure seems like there are not hard inserts in those riser's. You might want to get hard houseings for easier cutaways. Correct, there are no inserts. I jump big docile canopies, and don't worry too much about risers being twisted up, putting pressure on the cutaway cables. I also use old-fashioned big risers, rather than mini-risers, which also helps. QuoteIn terms of tumbling on a cutaway, how slowly are you planning on pulling that cable? Oh, I'll pull really hard and fast. That's why I said earlier it might be only a "split-second". But this just doesn't look right to me, and I want every advantage I can get in a cutaway situation. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 15 #9 September 17, 2004 Its the mini-rings which increase the forces needed to cutaway, not the mini risers. Your rig has the mini rings so its something you should think about at least.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MakeItHappen 15 #10 September 17, 2004 QuoteThe plot thickens... I compared the new red cable to my old yellow cable, and both cables are exactly the same length on both handles. When I insert the new red cables into my old rig, the protruding lengths come out identical. That would suggest that the new rig is narrower (shoulder to shoulder) or the housing on the left riser is shorter on the new rig. Pull out the housing from the mud flap to compare. This could be a design change in the Racer or maybe they put a cutaway handle for a larger rig in your system. Contact JumpShack to get the real answer. The cables are supposed to release risers differentially on most rigs. Racers have a two riser RSL system, so the risers should release simultaneously. IIRC, RWS rigs have RSL on the RIGHT riser, so the left riser should release before the right. This means the excess is longer on the right than the left. Rigs with a Collins lanyard may be different. Most other rigs have the RSL on the left riser. Those rigs should release the right riser first and then the left. This means the excess is longer on the left than the right. The difference should be an inch or two, but check with the rig mfg. My Racers have always had about the same amount of excess cable on each side. [Racer jumper since 1981.] .. Make It Happen Parachute History DiveMaker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BIGUN 1,055 #11 September 17, 2004 QuoteYou can't reverse 'em, because then the short cable wouldn't appear at all on the far side, and the long cable would hang out several feet on the near side. OK. My bad. You routed them correctly and this was the result.Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #12 September 17, 2004 Well you don't have to name the manufacturer, the red cable is a dead givaway. That said, the cables are SUPOSED to end up different lengths on most rigs. This is to help ensure that the non RSL riser is released first. Acctually, I am not current on the new design from that manufacturer for RSL set up. Is it now a single sided RSL?---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Samurai136 0 #13 September 17, 2004 After reading the thread: Is your old container also a Racer? Obviously there is some variance in the housing lengths between the two containers. Jumpshack and Sunpath send out cutaway cables all to a generic length for the user/ rigger to trim to specification. That said, I'd call jumpshack or check your owners manual and find out what that length should be. They will specify a certain number of inches in length past the loop. I can't get jumpshack's owner's manual to download right now but I know from sunpath that the length may be different depending on the type of housing on the container. Sunpath's spec is in the 5" to 6" range past the loop depending on type of housing. So I would speculate that 3.5" may be too short on the left side. Call Jumpshack. Ken"Buttons aren't toys." - Trillian Ken Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #14 September 17, 2004 QuoteOK. My bad. You routed them correctly and this was the result. Oh, I see now what you were saying. Yeah, I do have them routed to the correct side. Thanks for the idea. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #15 September 17, 2004 QuoteIs your old container also a Racer? Obviously there is some variance in the housing lengths between the two containers. Yes, that rig was also a Racer. But the new one is the "2K3" design, which has wider shoulders because of the new riser cover design. So that could account for an extra few inches coming around the yoke. QuoteI'd call jumpshack or check your owners manual and find out what that length should be. They will specify a certain number of inches in length past the loop. I can't get jumpshack's owner's manual to download right now... I've sent a detailed e-mail to them for comment, along with the photo. You're going to make me go read the frigging manual? Argh! Reading the mini-CD... Well, they don't go into that kind of detail about cable length. They do make this interesting statement:A handle attached to the main lift web pulls two cables that release the left and right side ring locking loop simultaneously. Simultaneous release was not possible on Racers manufactured before January 1998 and is not possible on any other rig manufactured at this time." Huh? Don't other rigs with 3-rings have simultaneous riser cutaways? I really appreciate the wealth of info that the folks here have provided. Thanks! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RMURRAY 1 #16 September 17, 2004 Quote I can't tell it by the pictures but it sure seems like there are not hard inserts in those riser's. You might want to get hard houseings for easier cutaways. Jumpshack does not have an option for hard housings in their risers. They have done testing with the red cables and with a slightly modifed conventional channel and found they do not need the added complexity - at least from what I remember.... rm Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 15 #17 September 17, 2004 All cables that are flexible enough to be used as cutaway cables can be twisted up in line twists. I'd love to hear how using the teflon over the yellow cables can eliminate the issues with riser twists trapping cutaway cables. Got any more info? QuoteHuh? Don't other rigs with 3-rings have simultaneous riser cutaways? Yep, if the cables are the same length they all can. I know lots of Jav's, Dolphins, Vector3's and Reflex's that are trimmed even and release at the same instant. Stupid BS marketing comment IMO.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #18 September 17, 2004 QuoteIts the mini-rings which increase the forces needed to cutaway, not the mini risers. Your rig has the mini rings so its something you should think about at least. Well, yes, mini-rings are reputed to produce slightly higher pull forces than the big rings. However, the teflon cables are supposed to reduce pull force, so that kind of balances it out. And mini-rings are oh so stylish, and that's what is really important. One of the big reasons for impossible pulls, is when line twists have wrapped down into the risers, and the risers are barber-poled around each other. This traps the upper end of the cutaway cable, producing hard pull forces. I believe that large risers are less susceptible to this kind of wrapping than mini risers. So with my big docile canopies, big risers, and teflon cutaway cables, I'm not too worried about that particular problem. That doesn't mean it can't happen to me, but I think my setup makes it highly unlikely. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #19 September 17, 2004 QuoteQuote They do make this interesting statement:A handle attached to the main lift web pulls two cables that release the left and right side ring locking loop simultaneously. Simultaneous release was not possible on Racers manufactured before January 1998 and is not possible on any other rig manufactured at this time." Huh? Don't other rigs with 3-rings have simultaneous riser cutaways? Sounds like a "John Sherman-isim" Any container on the market today is capable of it, they are not DESIGNED for it for a reason. The RSL side cable is specificaly left longer to help ensure of a relaese of the non RSL side a "moment" before the RSL side. In a cutaway this won't be noticed by the user.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites RMURRAY 1 #20 September 17, 2004 QuoteAll cables that are flexible enough to be used as cutaway cables can be twisted up in line twists. I'd love to hear how using the teflon over the yellow cables can eliminate the issues with riser twists trapping cutaway cables. Got any more info? I'll try to find that out from Nancy. I kinda thought you might ask about it! rm Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites nitrochute 2 #21 September 17, 2004 interesting to note , that when manley butler designed the mini 3 ring for para flite swift rig (circa 1982) he kept all the mechanical relationships exactly the same as the big 3 ring. however over the years other manufacturers (including booth) changed it to what it is today. WHY? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites JohnRich 4 #22 September 17, 2004 QuoteI'll try to find that out from Nancy. I kinda thought you might ask about it! Nancy's e-mail returns an automatic message that she is away, in Croatia for the world meet of Style & Accuracy. Someone else is picking up her e-mail for her, and may respond while she is away. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites hookitt 0 #23 September 17, 2004 John, call them on monday and get a new handle with the cables longer and cut them to size. 6 to 7 is a good finished length. 3.5 is much shorter than I'd feel safe with. The difference in release times will not be noticable unless you cutaway reeeaally SLOOOOwwwwly but I would change it out personally.My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skydiver30960 0 #24 September 18, 2004 Quote Any container on the market today is capable of it, they are not DESIGNED for it for a reason. The RSL side cable is specificaly left longer to help ensure of a relaese of the non RSL side a "moment" before the RSL side. In a cutaway this won't be noticed by the user. Another thing it does is help prevent a reserve punching into a main if the cutaway is partially pulled on exit or in freefall. If the RSL side cut away first from the handle getting snagged, then as soon as you deployed your main it'd cut away halfway, but stay on at the other riser as your RSL-deployed reserve came up to meet it. This "offset length" method assures that if only one riser releases that it is the non-RSL side, which will (after it obviously gets your attention) then allow you (hopefully, if you can find that damn floating handle) to complete the cutaway prior to your reserve hitting the wind. My gut feeling: RSL or no RSL, leave 'em be. General opinion is that you'll never notice it in a real cutaway, and there's something about unnecessary modifications that scares me... Elvisio "overly paranoid" Rodriguez Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites PhreeZone 15 #25 September 18, 2004 Why was the 3 rings changed to the mini rings? Style... its all about looking good. Here is an article that Bill Booth wrote about decisions jumpers make that go against safe actions all the time http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/safety/detail_page.cgi?ID=19Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 Next Page 1 of 2 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
RMURRAY 1 #20 September 17, 2004 QuoteAll cables that are flexible enough to be used as cutaway cables can be twisted up in line twists. I'd love to hear how using the teflon over the yellow cables can eliminate the issues with riser twists trapping cutaway cables. Got any more info? I'll try to find that out from Nancy. I kinda thought you might ask about it! rm Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nitrochute 2 #21 September 17, 2004 interesting to note , that when manley butler designed the mini 3 ring for para flite swift rig (circa 1982) he kept all the mechanical relationships exactly the same as the big 3 ring. however over the years other manufacturers (including booth) changed it to what it is today. WHY? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #22 September 17, 2004 QuoteI'll try to find that out from Nancy. I kinda thought you might ask about it! Nancy's e-mail returns an automatic message that she is away, in Croatia for the world meet of Style & Accuracy. Someone else is picking up her e-mail for her, and may respond while she is away. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hookitt 0 #23 September 17, 2004 John, call them on monday and get a new handle with the cables longer and cut them to size. 6 to 7 is a good finished length. 3.5 is much shorter than I'd feel safe with. The difference in release times will not be noticable unless you cutaway reeeaally SLOOOOwwwwly but I would change it out personally.My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydiver30960 0 #24 September 18, 2004 Quote Any container on the market today is capable of it, they are not DESIGNED for it for a reason. The RSL side cable is specificaly left longer to help ensure of a relaese of the non RSL side a "moment" before the RSL side. In a cutaway this won't be noticed by the user. Another thing it does is help prevent a reserve punching into a main if the cutaway is partially pulled on exit or in freefall. If the RSL side cut away first from the handle getting snagged, then as soon as you deployed your main it'd cut away halfway, but stay on at the other riser as your RSL-deployed reserve came up to meet it. This "offset length" method assures that if only one riser releases that it is the non-RSL side, which will (after it obviously gets your attention) then allow you (hopefully, if you can find that damn floating handle) to complete the cutaway prior to your reserve hitting the wind. My gut feeling: RSL or no RSL, leave 'em be. General opinion is that you'll never notice it in a real cutaway, and there's something about unnecessary modifications that scares me... Elvisio "overly paranoid" Rodriguez Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 15 #25 September 18, 2004 Why was the 3 rings changed to the mini rings? Style... its all about looking good. Here is an article that Bill Booth wrote about decisions jumpers make that go against safe actions all the time http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/safety/detail_page.cgi?ID=19Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
