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Rstanley0312

Night jump questions......

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I think we should keep it as is, BUT emphasize them being done as soon as possible, just like a canopy control class.

Matt



As I read the SIM, a jumper must be "B Qualified" to make a night jump.

But there is no restriction for someone who is not "B Qualified" to stay off the sunset (or late sunset) load.

Should we have a BSR that says no sunset load until you are B qualified and have a night jump?

(Is that actually already a requirement as the SIM is written now, and if so, should we start enforcing it more strictly.)

Or should we allow any licensed jumper to do night jumps with proper training and the approval of the appropriate authorities (I, I/E, S&TA, DZO), regardless of his B qualification status?

(Of course, all this says nothing at all about why a D license needs night jumps.)



Why do we do any of the requirements? It is for Safety, through training and experience.

Matt



Was that an answer?

Should we limit the sunset load to "B qualified" or better. Or is it actually a requirement now that is widely being ignored?

If sooner is better (see red highlighted text above), should we make it a B requirement instead of a D?

You say it is about safety. Great. How does that relate to the D night jump requirement?



Not sure what your beef with me is, but sure I answered so I am a good target.[:/]

If Sunset is defined as actual Sunset, then I think your question is answered with: Yes, only B qualified or higher and wearing the proper lights and other items done. This would jive with the FAR's (Lights) and BSR's (B Qualified or higher).

And no I do not think ANY DZ does that. They go till it is REALLY dark, and some well beyond.

The jumps can be noted any where, they are currently noted in the D license application.

Maybe we should put them in the B license requirements, good idea.

Matt



No beef. You've been representing a position on the D night jumps. I asked you some questions. The response post didn't have any answers, so I asked the most important ones again. I appreciate your taking the time to tell us your position.

As I see it, the D license night jump requirement is either for safety or for bragging rights.

If it is for safety, then it should be required long before the D license, because lots of people never get a D license in the first place.

If it is for bragging rights, then it really isn't for safety, and we should drop it if that is the will of the membership.

By the way -

The FAA requires the 3-mile-visibility position light anytime between official sunset and official sunrise.

If dropzones are going "till it is REALLY dark" without that light, they are violating the FARs, and therefore the BSRs as well.

We really should, as an organization (USPA), take a far stronger stand on this than we do, because real laws are being broken.



Cool.

I think we keep the nights jumps and get the experience for the Jumpers. It will be safer IMO.
I also think earlier is better.
But we have to be careful, we will load up the B license area pretty heavy.

Matt
An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!

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Or 'THEY' could just lose the skirt and make the damn skydive!



You seem to have a fixation on this "fear" thing. Wasssupwiddat?

Oh...you're in the "I had to do it so YOU have to do it" camp, right?
:D:D:P



No...I'm from the "if I can do it ANYBODY can" camp! :ph34r:


Night jump experience is just one more simple tool to have in the toolbox that just might come in handy some day, whether you PLAN to need it or not. ;)


The only fear fixation I have is with the carnival ride aspect some take in regard to preparation for involvement with the sport..."its' too hard to pack so I'll pay somebody...water jumps are stupid...night jumps unnecessary"

If that's the kind of skydiver one wants to be then okay, go for it...don't get the Master license, don't be a TM...just don't try to dumb everything up to make the rules fit your desires. What's next, don't train for certain types of malfunctions because they probably won't happen?

Half the day is made up of darkness, there's a pretty good chance if you stay with the sport for any length of time, having made a night jump will be beneficial in some way.










~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

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Or 'THEY' could just lose the skirt and make the damn skydive!



You seem to have a fixation on this "fear" thing. Wasssupwiddat?

Oh...you're in the "I had to do it so YOU have to do it" camp, right?
:D:D:P



No...I'm from the "if I can do it ANYBODY can" camp! :ph34r:


Night jump experience is just one more simple tool to have in the toolbox that just might come in handy some day, whether you PLAN to need it or not. ;)


The only fear fixation I have is with the carnival ride aspect some take in regard to preparation for involvement with the sport..."its' too hard to pack so I'll pay somebody...water jumps are stupid...night jumps unnecessary"

If that's the kind of skydiver one wants to be then okay, go for it...don't get the Master license, don't be a TM...just don't try to dumb everything up to make the rules fit your desires. What's next, don't train for certain types of malfunctions because they probably won't happen?

Half the day is made up of darkness, there's a pretty good chance if you stay with the sport for any length of time, having made a night jump will be beneficial in some way.



Ah, Wisdom.

Sage advice my friend.

Matt
An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!

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I stand by the reason to do them is experience, which when done right leads to education and safety. I agree they should be done earlier. I propose they be done at the B License stage. But we also want to add Canopy control there too! OK So maybe the "C" License instead.

But I would be behind USPA making it a PRO rating req instead. DEMO Jumpers will do a night DEMO eventually.

Matt



I agree that proficiency in canopy piloting is the foremost skill we need to improve. I would support requiring night jumps for the pro rating only. Or, perhaps have night demo as an endorsement to the Pro Rating.
The only way I could see night jumps improving safety and creating meaningful experience is to have a re-currency requirement for night jumps. Experience and skill comes only through regular practice.
I'm not proposing that, and I don't think anyone would want that. I just don't believe that 2 jumps will build an adequate level of experience or safety.



To you or me it may not be adequate and I would base my opinion on the hind sight gained in experience of several hundred night jumps, mostly Demo's. But some experience is better than no experience.

I think we should keep it as is, BUT emphasize them being done as soon as possible, just like a canopy control class.

Matt



I understand your position. You have a lot of experience with night skydives and demos and you are coming from your perspective. I respect that. From my perspective and from some skydivers I've spoken with about this issue, we don't see any legitimate benefit in being required to make a couple night jumps when we do not want to. We did it because we could not get a D with out them. I would like to see them required only for those who want to make night demos and other than that be totally voluntary.

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>I would like to see them required only for those who want to make night demos

I think there is a lot of good in having more experienced/better trained skydivers, even if they don't want that training or experience. Heck, I'd add some CRW to the requirements; could save your life if you ever have a two-out, even if you never plan to do CRW.

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>I would like to see them required only for those who want to make night demos

I think there is a lot of good in having more experienced/better trained skydivers, even if they don't want that training or experience. Heck, I'd add some CRW to the requirements; could save your life if you ever have a two-out, even if you never plan to do CRW.



That why I said we should create an E license.

500 and 2 night jumps is not a Master anymore.

Put multidisciplinary stuff in E and call that Master.

D is needed for national competition, but night jumps are not not really related to that.

It is time to modernize our licensing structure to reflect what has happened to the sport.

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I think there is a lot of good in having more experienced/better trained skydivers, even if they don't want that training or experience.
________________________________________________

Edit to add: Reply to BV
Having better trained and more experienced skydivers? Absolutely. Edit: It should be training that is purposeful and needed, not wanted or unwanted. Canopy Piloting has been brought up here as an area of need. Too many getting hurt and killed under good canopies.


That why I said we should create an E license.

500 and 2 night jumps is not a Master anymore.

Put multidisciplinary stuff in E and call that Master.

D is needed for national competition, but night jumps are not not really related to that.

It is time to modernize our licensing structure to reflect what has happened to the sport.


__________________________________________________


I think this cuts to the heart of the issue. Our sport has evolved greatly. Let the requirements evolve with them. For those who want to do night CRW, ok require night jumps. Night Demos, ditto.
For daytime competition, Nah. If you like jumping at night by all means go for it. Just don't see requiring it for the sake of requiring it.

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That would mean not getting on some of those sunset loads that are so damn cool and beautiful.

No harm in being experienced with it, huh?

Matt



"No harm"? Only if we make those jumps legally.

If those cool sunset loads go past legal sunset, and do not have the FAA required 3-mile-visible lighting, they are ILLEGAL.

Experience is fine and a very good thing, but get it LEGALLY.

The BSRs require us to make all our skydives in compliance with all applicable laws, and the applicable law requires that light.

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>For daytime competition, Nah. If you like jumping at night by all means go for it.

I'd say that competitors need it even _more_ than anyone else. Trust me, once you're on a high level team, there's no way you are going to pull off a load just because the meet director asked all the teams to push the sunset to finish 8-way before the storms hit.

Competitors often push the limits of endurance, jumps per day, lift capability, fallrate etc etc. They're the ones who most need the experience/training to be able to do that safely.

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>For daytime competition, Nah. If you like jumping at night by all means go for it.

I'd say that competitors need it even _more_ than anyone else. Trust me, once you're on a high level team, there's no way you are going to pull off a load just because the meet director asked all the teams to push the sunset to finish 8-way before the storms hit.

Competitors often push the limits of endurance, jumps per day, lift capability, fallrate etc etc. They're the ones who most need the experience/training to be able to do that safely.



If the jump is past legal sunset, and they do not have the required lighting, the jumps are illegal.

The Meet Director is asking teams to make illegal jumps?

That is troubling.

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That would mean not getting on some of those sunset loads that are so damn cool and beautiful.

No harm in being experienced with it, huh?

Matt



"No harm"? Only if we make those jumps legally.

If those cool sunset loads go past legal sunset, and do not have the FAA required 3-mile-visible lighting, they are ILLEGAL.

Experience is fine and a very good thing, but get it LEGALLY.

The BSRs require us to make all our skydives in compliance with all applicable laws, and the applicable law requires that light.



My "No Harm" comment did not imply to violate the FAR's nor the BSR's. I simply meant that having the experience of two well executed night jumps could give the Skydiver experience that could help them be safe, from "harm", when they find them selves in a less than ideal lighting situation.

Matt
An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!

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>The Meet Director is asking teams to make illegal jumps?

Not at all! The meet director simply asked them if they would be willing to take it right to sunset. They said OK because, well, almost no competitor is ever going to say no to that. Then something completely beyond anyone's control occurs - say, there's a goaround, or the plane breaks and they roll up other Otter ten minutes later, and it's the slow plane, and it takes an extra ten minutes. Or several of the above occur.

And they're jumping after sunset. Is that anyone's fault? Not really. Does it happen? Yep. And when it does happen, having some experience jumping after sunset can be invaluable.

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>For daytime competition, Nah. If you like jumping at night by all means go for it.

I'd say that competitors need it even _more_ than anyone else. Trust me, once you're on a high level team, there's no way you are going to pull off a load just because the meet director asked all the teams to push the sunset to finish 8-way before the storms hit.

Competitors often push the limits of endurance, jumps per day, lift capability, fallrate etc etc. They're the ones who most need the experience/training to be able to do that safely.



If the jump is past legal sunset, and they do not have the required lighting, the jumps are illegal.

The Meet Director is asking teams to make illegal jumps?

That is troubling.



It certainly is.

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>The Meet Director is asking teams to make illegal jumps?

Not at all! The meet director simply asked them if they would be willing to take it right to sunset. They said OK because, well, almost no competitor is ever going to say no to that. Then something completely beyond anyone's control occurs - say, there's a goaround, or the plane breaks and they roll up other Otter ten minutes later, and it's the slow plane, and it takes an extra ten minutes. Or several of the above occur.

And they're jumping after sunset. Is that anyone's fault? Not really. Does it happen? Yep. And when it does happen, having some experience jumping after sunset can be invaluable.



Fault is of no consequence. If they jump after sunset without the required lights, they have broken the law.

Now, maybe that's going to happen at the local dz from time to time.

But it is inexcusable for it to happen in an official competition of the USPA.

In fact, I would have to say that jumps made illegally must not be counted as far as the competition is concerned.

The FARs are not little toy rules to be be bent when possible, while we all snicker and think "How cool are we?".

They are the real laws of our land (here in the USA).

The pilot of that aircraft can actually lose his pilot certificate over such a jump.

It is completely inexcusable that USPA would be a party in any way to such a thing.

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And they're jumping after sunset. Is that anyone's fault? Not really.


Geez, Bill. You make it sound like nobody has any control over when they step out of an aircraft in those cases. Are competitors completely at the mercy of a meet director?



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Does it happen? Yep. And when it does happen, having some experience jumping after sunset can be invaluable.


Abso-freakin-lutely!
Wouldn't it be nice to have the training and experience before it's needed?

Earlier than D would be nice. Requirement for D is misplaced.
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

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Or 'THEY' could just lose the skirt and make the damn skydive!



You seem to have a fixation on this "fear" thing. Wasssupwiddat?

Oh...you're in the "I had to do it so YOU have to do it" camp, right?
:D:D:P



No...I'm from the "if I can do it ANYBODY can" camp! :ph34r:


Night jump experience is just one more simple tool to have in the toolbox that just might come in handy some day, whether you PLAN to need it or not. ;)


The only fear fixation I have is with the carnival ride aspect some take in regard to preparation for involvement with the sport..."its' too hard to pack so I'll pay somebody...water jumps are stupid...night jumps unnecessary"

If that's the kind of skydiver one wants to be then okay, go for it...don't get the Master license, don't be a TM...just don't try to dumb everything up to make the rules fit your desires. What's next, don't train for certain types of malfunctions because they probably won't happen?

Half the day is made up of darkness, there's a pretty good chance if you stay with the sport for any length of time, having made a night jump will be beneficial in some way.



+1

I blame it on the “entitlement generation”. If you want a “D” license, earn it. No one is forced to complete the requirements.
Sparky
My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

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Night jump experience is just one more simple tool to have in the toolbox that just might come in handy some day, whether you PLAN to need it or not. ;)


And there's agreement to that....yes.
The question is when to get it.
D-license is late in the game, IMHO.

Making a requirement for Tandem only encourages those "after legal sunset" jumps.

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If that's the kind of skydiver one wants to be then okay, go for it...don't get the Master license, don't be a TM...just don't try to dumb everything up to make the rules fit your desires.


Nobody's "dumbing everything up". Reading that into the conversation is off-the-mark.

Since D is not "master", I like the idea of bringing back the E, calling it "Master" or "Expert" and making requirements for all those specialty jumps in order to qualify for it....with no dependencies attached.

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What's next, don't train for certain types of malfunctions because they probably won't happen?


???? Let's not go to extremes here, please.

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having made a night jump will be beneficial in some way.


Yes. Nobody is against that.

Since the legality of those "sunset" jumps has been raised, making night jumps a requirement for Tandem only encourages those "after legal sunset" jumps.

My stance stays the same with respect to night jumps:
1. A good idea to have the training and experience.
2. D-license is late in the game if you're going to make it a requirement.
3. D-license requirement serves no real purpose.
4. USPA justification for D is senseless.
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

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I blame it on the “entitlement generation”. If you want a “D” license, earn it. No one is forced to complete the requirements.
Sparky



Blame it on the "old school generation". I had to do it for D so you do too.
:D:D:P
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

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I blame it on the “entitlement generation”. If you want a “D” license, earn it. No one is forced to complete the requirements.
Sparky



Blame it on the "old school generation". I had to do it for D so you do too.
:D:D:P



So do we eliminate or waiver everything that is unpleasant, inconvenient and just make the requirements fit what the individual feels like doing? Why not just do away with license all together? Every 8 to 10 years we require less and less form people coming into the sport and then question why their knowledge of skydiving sucks.

But then I enjoyed jumping at night. I was on the first night 8 stack, actually 10, in 1980. You right I am “old school” and proud of it.

Sparky
My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

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>Are competitors completely at the mercy of a meet director?

Not at all! They are at the mercy of their own competitive natures. (Last year's Nats was a good example of this in action.)

Everyone should always open their own parachute. In reality we know that people don't always do that - so using an AAD can, in the real world, be a lifesaver.

Everyone should always decide what their level of risk will be and jump (or not) based on that. In reality we know that people don't always do that - so experience with night jumps can, in the real world, be helpful.

>Earlier than D would be nice.

I'd generally agree there.

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>If they jump after sunset without the required lights, they have broken the
>law. Now, maybe that's going to happen at the local dz from time to time.

Agreed and agreed - even if the people involved would tell you, if you asked them away from the pressure of an intense day of skydiving, that they wouldn't jump after sunset. Which is why those night jumps can be helpful.

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In all this debate no one has clearly stated what legitimate purpose requiring night jumps serve. Edit: I can't identify any.



1) Having a D-license makes you eligible for a PRO rating which often involves jumping at night. I think it would be a terrible idea to do a nighttime demo if you've never executed a night jump under controlled circumstances.

2) Licenses are meant to be a demonstration of proficiency. Jumping at night demonstrates that we can safely jump under severely hindered visual conditions.

I agree with the sentiment that canopy proficiency is probably lacking in the USPA license requirements...but that is a separate topic.

BLUF: No one NEEDS a D-license. If you don't feel up to satisfying all of the requirements, then don't.

Cheers! :D

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