0
Rstanley0312

Night jump questions......

Recommended Posts

Quote

re: I say scrap the nite jumps ,,,they should be required for the Pro rating only

Nite jumping should be replaced by canopy control classes,,thats where we are suffering from the most, not nite jumps.....


I COULDN'T AGREE MORE.....



Me, too, sorta...Having a Pro rating doesn't mean that one HAS to do night jumps for any reason. There is nothing that requires one to do a night jump. Doing a night jump is strictly voluntary with one "possible" exception...an emergency bail-out after dark...and that doesn't include twilight.

We've given them numerous reasons why night jump requirement for D doesn't make sense but they refuse to listen.

We've shown them numerous times that the logic USPA uses to justify the requirement doesn't make sense but they refuse to listen.

For them, it's all about, "I had to do it so you do, too" or "We've always done it that way".
:S:S

They should have kept the water jump requirement somewhere in there.
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

Quote

re: I say scrap the nite jumps ,,,they should be required for the Pro rating only

Nite jumping should be replaced by canopy control classes,,thats where we are suffering from the most, not nite jumps.....


I COULDN'T AGREE MORE.....



Me, too, sorta...Having a Pro rating doesn't mean that one HAS to do night jumps for any reason. There is nothing that requires one to do a night jump. Doing a night jump is strictly voluntary with one "possible" exception...an emergency bail-out after dark...and that doesn't include twilight.

We've given them numerous reasons why night jump requirement for D doesn't make sense but they refuse to listen.

We've shown them numerous times that the logic USPA uses to justify the requirement doesn't make sense but they refuse to listen.

For them, it's all about, "I had to do it so you do, too" or "We've always done it that way".
:S:S

They should have kept the water jump requirement somewhere in there.


Of "they" could just allow the "C" License holder who has the Freefall time and Jumps to get the AFF and Tandem rating, apply for awards, compete, do certain Demo's, record attempts etc. (yes some of this stuff already happens).

Then the "D" license can still be the "Master" with its night jumps, for ego and bragging purposes more than likely.

Matt
An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote


Of "they" could just allow the "C" License holder who has the Freefall time and Jumps to get the AFF and Tandem rating, apply for awards, compete, do certain Demo's, record attempts etc. (yes some of this stuff already happens).

Then the "D" license can still be the "Master" with its night jumps, for ego and bragging purposes more than likely.

Matt



If only we had a way to vote on things. [:/]
"I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly
DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890
I'm an asshole, and I approve this message

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

Quote

Quote

re: I say scrap the nite jumps ,,,they should be required for the Pro rating only

Nite jumping should be replaced by canopy control classes,,thats where we are suffering from the most, not nite jumps.....


I COULDN'T AGREE MORE.....



Me, too, sorta...Having a Pro rating doesn't mean that one HAS to do night jumps for any reason. There is nothing that requires one to do a night jump. Doing a night jump is strictly voluntary with one "possible" exception...an emergency bail-out after dark...and that doesn't include twilight.

We've given them numerous reasons why night jump requirement for D doesn't make sense but they refuse to listen.

We've shown them numerous times that the logic USPA uses to justify the requirement doesn't make sense but they refuse to listen.

For them, it's all about, "I had to do it so you do, too" or "We've always done it that way".
:S:S

They should have kept the water jump requirement somewhere in there.


Of "they" could just allow the "C" License holder who has the Freefall time and Jumps to get the AFF and Tandem rating, apply for awards, compete, do certain Demo's, record attempts etc. (yes some of this stuff already happens).

Then the "D" license can still be the "Master" with its night jumps, for ego and bragging purposes more than likely.

Matt



Or 'THEY' could just lose the skirt and make the damn skydive! :P


Just wondering...if someone is afraid of turning right, can they get a restricted drivers license if they promise never to turn righ on purpose? :):ph34r:










~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Fear of the unknown. What will it be like when you solo out the door into the pitch dark ? Well, you're 2 miles in the air.....nothing to hit.....with good seperation. You see all the lights on the ground during freefall for guidance. You can see the landing area all lit up for you. Everyone, including you, has a visable flashing strobe light that can be seen for miles (Required ). For little ways, you and your friends cover your wrists, ankles, maybe boobies with "snap lights", and your formation looks like a beatiful light show up close. All for the fun, because yes, it is fun. It's a fun jumper party in fact. I'm sorry you are missing this party. It's there for you.
Life is short ... jump often.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

I agree, do the jumps or don't get the license. Big deal right?

Matt



Yep....right up to the point of wanting to become a Tandem Instructor.
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote


Or 'THEY' could just lose the skirt and make the damn skydive!



You seem to have a fixation on this "fear" thing. Wasssupwiddat?

Oh...you're in the "I had to do it so YOU have to do it" camp, right?
:D:D:P
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

Quote

I agree, do the jumps or don't get the license. Big deal right?

Matt



Yep....right up to the point of wanting to become a Tandem Instructor.



I know it may seem odd. BUT, I am of the mind set either make it a standard for all or none.

Waivers have a place, but just to waive it cause "I am only going to do Tandems" is a cop out, IMO.

PLUS, we all know the T-I will be on THAT load and will make THAT "Sunset" jump. Why not have a small idea of what it will be like?

Matt
An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

In all this debate no one has clearly stated what legitimate purpose requiring night jumps serve. Edit: I can't identify any.



So, my post right above you inferring having experience in a night jump so as to not be inexperienced for that "Oh Shit it's dark now" jump is not good enough?

It is far better than "Cause I had too".

But I say leave it in. If you want a D License make the night jumps. You only need a night jump for Recognition and Tandem's at the moment, and the BOD will waive it for "Tandems Only" according to a previous post.

And like, you have not read a good argument to keep them, I have not read a good argument NOT to do them. Other than the "I don't want to do them crowd".

Matt
An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

Quote

In all this debate no one has clearly stated what legitimate purpose requiring night jumps serve. Edit: I can't identify any.



So, my post right above you inferring having experience in a night jump so as to not be inexperienced for that "Oh Shit it's dark now" jump is not good enough?

It is far better than "Cause I had too".

But I say leave it in. If you want a D License make the night jumps. You only need a night jump for Recognition and Tandem's at the moment, and the BOD will waive it for "Tandems Only" according to a previous post.

And like, you have not read a good argument to keep them,

Matt



Please re read my statement. I did not say not to have night jumps. I said "I did not see a legitimate reason REQUIRING nights jumps serve" The mandatory night jump for the guy or gal with 350 jumps that ends up on that "Oh shit its dark now" skydive is meaningless if they haven't done one yet.

You stated above, "I have not read a good argument NOT to do them. Other than the "I don't want to do them crowd".

Here's the answer.

You only need a night jump for Recognition and Tandem's at the moment, and the BOD will waive it for "Tandems Only" according to a previous post.

Ok the BOD will waver them for Tandems. That leaves only "Recognition", I presuming you're reference is for the the D license requirement. I do not believe that is a legitimate reason to mandate taking the risks associated with making a night jump in order to obtain a D license.

If we are going to require night jumps so that people are prepared for those unintentional ones, then why not require them much earlier . Why not for the B or C. Chances are pretty great that somewhere between 50 and 500 jumps someone will find themselves in that unplanned for night jump.

Don't get me wrong, I am not against night jumps. I've done my required ones and more than one unplanned. I thought the freefall was awesome. The landings.......not so much.

Edit to add: Seems to me the only reason is, "because I had to"

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I stand by the reason to do them is experience, which when done right leads to education and safety. I agree they should be done earlier. I propose they be done at the B License stage. But we also want to add Canopy control there too! OK So maybe the "C" License instead.

But I would be behind USPA making it a PRO rating req instead. DEMO Jumpers will do a night DEMO eventually.

Matt
An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

I stand by the reason to do them is experience, which when done right leads to education and safety. I agree they should be done earlier. I propose they be done at the B License stage. But we also want to add Canopy control there too! OK So maybe the "C" License instead.

But I would be behind USPA making it a PRO rating req instead. DEMO Jumpers will do a night DEMO eventually.

Matt



I agree that proficiency in canopy piloting is the foremost skill we need to improve. I would support requiring night jumps for the pro rating only. Or, perhaps have night demo as an endorsement to the Pro Rating.
The only way I could see night jumps improving safety and creating meaningful experience is to have a re-currency requirement for night jumps. Experience and skill comes only through regular practice.
I'm not proposing that, and I don't think anyone would want that. I just don't believe that 2 jumps will build an adequate level of experience or safety.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

Quote

I stand by the reason to do them is experience, which when done right leads to education and safety. I agree they should be done earlier. I propose they be done at the B License stage. But we also want to add Canopy control there too! OK So maybe the "C" License instead.

But I would be behind USPA making it a PRO rating req instead. DEMO Jumpers will do a night DEMO eventually.

Matt



I agree that proficiency in canopy piloting is the foremost skill we need to improve. I would support requiring night jumps for the pro rating only. Or, perhaps have night demo as an endorsement to the Pro Rating.
The only way I could see night jumps improving safety and creating meaningful experience is to have a re-currency requirement for night jumps. Experience and skill comes only through regular practice.
I'm not proposing that, and I don't think anyone would want that. I just don't believe that 2 jumps will build an adequate level of experience or safety.



To you or me it may not be adequate and I would base my opinion on the hind sight gained in experience of several hundred night jumps, mostly Demo's. But some experience is better than no experience.

I think we should keep it as is, BUT emphasize them being done as soon as possible, just like a canopy control class.

Matt
An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote


I think we should keep it as is, BUT emphasize them being done as soon as possible, just like a canopy control class.

Matt



As I read the SIM, a jumper must be "B Qualified" to make a night jump.

But there is no restriction for someone who is not "B Qualified" to stay off the sunset (or late sunset) load.

Should we have a BSR that says no sunset load until you are B qualified and have a night jump?

(Is that actually already a requirement as the SIM is written now, and if so, should we start enforcing it more strictly.)

Or should we allow any licensed jumper to do night jumps with proper training and the approval of the appropriate authorities (I, I/E, S&TA, DZO), regardless of his B qualification status?

(Of course, all this says nothing at all about why a D license needs night jumps.)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

Quote


I think we should keep it as is, BUT emphasize them being done as soon as possible, just like a canopy control class.

Matt



As I read the SIM, a jumper must be "B Qualified" to make a night jump.

But there is no restriction for someone who is not "B Qualified" to stay off the sunset (or late sunset) load.

Should we have a BSR that says no sunset load until you are B qualified and have a night jump?

(Is that actually already a requirement as the SIM is written now, and if so, should we start enforcing it more strictly.)

Or should we allow any licensed jumper to do night jumps with proper training and the approval of the appropriate authorities (I, I/E, S&TA, DZO), regardless of his B qualification status?

(Of course, all this says nothing at all about why a D license needs night jumps.)



Why do we do any of the requirements? It is for Safety, through training and experience.

Matt
An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

Quote

Quote


I think we should keep it as is, BUT emphasize them being done as soon as possible, just like a canopy control class.

Matt



As I read the SIM, a jumper must be "B Qualified" to make a night jump.

But there is no restriction for someone who is not "B Qualified" to stay off the sunset (or late sunset) load.

Should we have a BSR that says no sunset load until you are B qualified and have a night jump?

(Is that actually already a requirement as the SIM is written now, and if so, should we start enforcing it more strictly.)

Or should we allow any licensed jumper to do night jumps with proper training and the approval of the appropriate authorities (I, I/E, S&TA, DZO), regardless of his B qualification status?

(Of course, all this says nothing at all about why a D license needs night jumps.)



Why do we do any of the requirements? It is for Safety, through training and experience.

Matt



Was that an answer?

Should we limit the sunset load to "B qualified" or better. Or is it actually a requirement now that is widely being ignored?

If sooner is better (see red highlighted text above), should we make it a B requirement instead of a D?

You say it is about safety. Great. How does that relate to the D night jump requirement?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

Quote

Quote

Quote


I think we should keep it as is, BUT emphasize them being done as soon as possible, just like a canopy control class.

Matt



As I read the SIM, a jumper must be "B Qualified" to make a night jump.

But there is no restriction for someone who is not "B Qualified" to stay off the sunset (or late sunset) load.

Should we have a BSR that says no sunset load until you are B qualified and have a night jump?

(Is that actually already a requirement as the SIM is written now, and if so, should we start enforcing it more strictly.)

Or should we allow any licensed jumper to do night jumps with proper training and the approval of the appropriate authorities (I, I/E, S&TA, DZO), regardless of his B qualification status?

(Of course, all this says nothing at all about why a D license needs night jumps.)


Why do we do any of the requirements? It is for Safety, through training and experience.

Matt


Was that an answer?

Should we limit the sunset load to "B qualified" or better. Or is it actually a requirement now that is widely being ignored?

If sooner is better (see red highlighted text above), should we make it a B requirement instead of a D?

You say it is about safety. Great. How does that relate to the D night jump requirement?


Not sure what your beef with me is, but sure I answered so I am a good target.[:/]

If Sunset is defined as actual Sunset, then I think your question is answered with: Yes, only B qualified or higher and wearing the proper lights and other items done. This would jive with the FAR's (Lights) and BSR's (B Qualified or higher).

And no I do not think ANY DZ does that. They go till it is REALLY dark, and some well beyond.

The jumps can be noted any where, they are currently noted in the D license application.

Maybe we should put them in the B license requirements, good idea.

Matt
An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

Quote

Quote

Quote

Quote


I think we should keep it as is, BUT emphasize them being done as soon as possible, just like a canopy control class.

Matt



As I read the SIM, a jumper must be "B Qualified" to make a night jump.

But there is no restriction for someone who is not "B Qualified" to stay off the sunset (or late sunset) load.

Should we have a BSR that says no sunset load until you are B qualified and have a night jump?

(Is that actually already a requirement as the SIM is written now, and if so, should we start enforcing it more strictly.)

Or should we allow any licensed jumper to do night jumps with proper training and the approval of the appropriate authorities (I, I/E, S&TA, DZO), regardless of his B qualification status?

(Of course, all this says nothing at all about why a D license needs night jumps.)


Why do we do any of the requirements? It is for Safety, through training and experience.

Matt


Was that an answer?

Should we limit the sunset load to "B qualified" or better. Or is it actually a requirement now that is widely being ignored?

If sooner is better (see red highlighted text above), should we make it a B requirement instead of a D?

You say it is about safety. Great. How does that relate to the D night jump requirement?


Not sure what your beef with me is, but sure I answered so I am a good target.[:/]

If Sunset is defined as actual Sunset, then I think your question is answered with: Yes, only B qualified or higher and wearing the proper lights and other items done. This would jive with the FAR's (Lights) and BSR's (B Qualified or higher).

And no I do not think ANY DZ does that. They go till it is REALLY dark, and some well beyond.

The jumps can be noted any where, they are currently noted in the D license application.

Maybe we should put them in the B license requirements, good idea.

Matt


No beef. You've been representing a position on the D night jumps. I asked you some questions. The response post didn't have any answers, so I asked the most important ones again. I appreciate your taking the time to tell us your position.

As I see it, the D license night jump requirement is either for safety or for bragging rights.

If it is for safety, then it should be required long before the D license, because lots of people never get a D license in the first place.

If it is for bragging rights, then it really isn't for safety, and we should drop it if that is the will of the membership.

By the way -

The FAA requires the 3-mile-visibility position light anytime between official sunset and official sunrise.

If dropzones are going "till it is REALLY dark" without that light, they are violating the FARs, and therefore the BSRs as well.

We really should, as an organization (USPA), take a far stronger stand on this than we do, because real laws are being broken.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

0