Advice on buying my first rig

[lintern 1]

I have been jumping for 2 years now, for the first 18 months I did 60 RAPS jumps but struggled to get past 3 second delays (very long story!).

This year I changed to AFF which I passed with flying colours and I now have my A licence. Including my consolidation jumps I have done 20 solo freefall jumps bringing my total number of jumps to 96 (including RAPS).

The cost of AFF has hit me really hard in the pocket but it has become obvious that I need to get my own rig instead of wasting money on kit hire, especially as the kit for hire is very limited in quantity and choice anyway.

I know of someone selling the following (pictures attached):

Talon Container
500 jumps max.
12 years old (1992)
£550 ($1008) + £140 ($256) for cypress service = £690 ($1264)
Performance Design 170ft main (F1-11)
Raven 150ft reserve
4 years left on cypress

The trouble is I don’t like it! The container is green and mustard yellow !

So its alot of money for something I don’t like which I find very frustrating!

Also, I wont be able to sell it on as it will be worth next to nothing by the time I come to sell it.

Does anyone know how much a new, complete rig would depreciate by?

If I buy this second hand rig which I don’t like (but for that sort of money I cant be picky) as I wont be able to sell it on I will loose £690 ($1264).

If I were to buy a brand new rig costing £3000 ($5500), how much would it depreciate by in say a years time? I would obviously look after it - like the saying goes, look after your kit and it will look after you!

As an example, if it depreciated by £500 ($916) after a year then in terms of the amount of money I would loose I would be no worse off buying a new rig then this second hand rig.

Also, some people say don’t bother with a cypress. Once I get my B licence (which wont be too far off) as the rules currently stand I do not need to jump with a cypress.

Someone once said to me "A cypress is only needed if there is a risk you could get knocked unconscious - what is going to knock you unconscious in freefall? Only tandem jumps have that risk"

They also implied that a cypress can be a bad thing because it increases the chance of having 2 canopies out, should it inadvertently fire when under your main.

What do I do !!!! ????

[vt1977 0]

Firstly, have you discussed these questions with a local rigger and had a look at what else may be available on the second hand market? My guess is that for a bit more cash you could get a decent set of second hand kit, that is freefly friendly and can be easily sold on in a year or two without depreciating too much.

Secondly, what is your exit weight? I personally wouldn’t overload an older Raven reserve… How many jumps on main and reserve?

Vicki

[damion75 0]

I would be wary of a PD-170 main (F1-11) with 500 jumps on it. After that many jumps the material will be pretty fragged even if it has been well looked after. There is unlikely to be much flare left in it. Also what Vicki said about the reserve.

About the Cypres... WTF? The most likely thing to knock you out in freefall is another jumper doing something stupid! I am not sure where Tandems came into it!

Also, by the time your Cypres is programmed to fire (from 750ft downwards) believe me it would be better to have two out than none out. Several DZs are also talking about making AADs mandatory up to C licence or for all jumpers, I know that at least one has.

Yes this is a cheap rig, but you get what you pay for sadly! I would save a bit more and get something else.

***************

Not one shred of evidence supports the theory that life is serious - look at the platypus.

[skybytch 259]

There's some good information about choosing your gear here.

If you don't like the rig you're looking at... don't buy it. There's more used gear out there... if your budget is insisting on used and you really don']t like that rig then keep looking.

Not sure that rig would be right for you anyway... Have you discussed canopy sizing and types with your instructors yet?

Quote

I will loose £690

Sorry, I don't see how you would be "losing" money buying either that used rig or all new. Each jump you make on it may "cost" you - personally I don't think of that as "losing" money as it would cost more to rent gear to make the same jumps.

If you buy that rig, put 100 jumps on it and then put it in a closet, each jump will "cost" you 6.9 pounds. Is that more or less than you are currently paying to rent gear?

If you buy an all new rig at 3000 pounds, make 300 jumps on it and then put it in a closet each jump would "cost" you about 10 pounds. But you'd likely be able to sell that rig for 2000 pounds (or more? not sure of value of a used rig in the UK; depends alot on which items you choose and how well you care for them), so those 300 jumps would "cost" you 1000 pounds - or about 3.33 pounds per jump.

Quote

Also, some people say don’t bother with a cypress. Once I get my B licence (which wont be too far off) as the rules currently stand I do not need to jump with a cypress.

Someone once said to me "A cypress is only needed if there is a risk you could get knocked unconscious - what is going to knock you unconscious in freefall? Only tandem jumps have that risk"

They also implied that a cypress can be a bad thing because it increases the chance of having 2 canopies out, should it inadvertently fire when under your main.

Cypres or not is a personal choice. Whoever told you that only tandems have a risk of being knocked unconcious isn't being realistic about the risks they are putting themselves under - any skydiver can be knocked unconcious in freefall, by hitting the plane, by hitting another jumper or from various medical issues.

Yes, a Cypres does increase your risk of having two out. You can mitigate that risk by not going low - ie get something out before you get into "Cypres territory."

There are many ways you can die skydiving. A Cypres will save you in only a few situations. You decide if you're willing to take on the risk of not having a Cypres should one of those situations occur to you.

[gus 1]

Hey John,

Your situation (no money, no rig) is not unusual, which means that if you're interested in that rig then the likelyhood is that someone else will be in a years time (or whenever) if you come to sell it. Yes it will depreciate but any rig you buy will do that. The worst case scenario is that you end up with £690s worth of rig that you can't sell and you've 'lost' that money. But if you bought a new rig for £3000 and sold it a year or two later you'd do well to loose less than that anyway.

IMHO, the questions you should be asking are (in order of importance);

Is it airworthy?
Is it suitable? (main/reserve size and type, your exit weight, your experience, the dropzones where you jump, the type of jumps you'll be doing etc)
Is it good value?
Do I like the colours? .

Gus

OutpatientsOnline.com

[mr2mk1g 10]

If you get your B-license before too long you will not be required to use a cypres. From (I think) some point this season the BPA are going to require a cypres for ALL A-license jumpers. Several DZ's require cypreses for all or some jumpers and this is something that is becoming more common. Do not be put off the idea of buying a cypres because, if nothing else, it will make your life easier at some DZ's. And I bet you said tandem when you ment two-way. Believe me, you will really want to do two-ways soon enough - so the risk is real enough.

That rig sounds quite cool to me - but I've not seen it so that's no reccomendation. Nor am I qualified to comment. Ok, the colours may suck a bit, but everyone has been there. Virtually all skydivers have jumped kit which just plain makes them want to vomit - it's a fact of life in this sport sometimes and no one will look down on you for having crappy colours. Don't base your choice on colours - base it on the quality of the kit. People are not going to refuse to jump with you just cos you look like a fashion reject. People might refuse to jump with you if your kit is unsafe. Safety has to be your first consern. You'll be waisting time and money if you hang out for something that makes you look the shiz.

Also, that rig will not be worthless when you've finished with it. There's always a resale value, even if it's depreciated significantly. A new rig will probably have depreciated by arround £650 anyway as soon as you've put your first jump on it, so how much are you really risking.

The price of the rig certainly isn't outside the norms for UK gear. I sold my first rig last week. I was innundated with offers of £1000 for my 1992 Javelin with 800 jumps on the main and no cypres. Gear in 170 and 190 sizes is damn hard to come by in this country and the price generally reflects this fact.

All that said, get a riggers opinion on the gear before you consider it, don't just buy cos it's cheap - it must be airworthy and cheap.

[UDSkyJunkie 0]

Assuming you have your local rigger inspect everything, and he says it's in decent condition, then you're getting a pretty good deal. The Talon, Raven, and PD 170 are all excellent gear... not exactly the latest and greatest, but nothing wrong with them.

My own first canopy was a PD 170 with approximately 500 jumps, and I was loading it about 0.9/1. It performed well, landed soft, and opened more consistently and on heading than anything else I have ever jumped, all of which were perfect for me until I hit about 100 jumps. If the canopy wasn't abused, then it shouldn't (which isn't to say "won't") be baffed out by 500 jumps, particularly if it was jumped in England (my assumption since the price is in pounds), where it would not be exposed to extremely harsh sunlight or desert conditions, which can shorten the life span of a canopy dramatically.

Also, realize that even if you decide after 100 jumps that it's time to move on, it doesn't mean you've lost the whole $1300. The reserve would still be good, so why replace it immediately? The cypres will be good for 4 years, no matter how long you use everything else, so it's cost is irrelevant. When I moved on, I was able to sell my 170 for $350 (even though it was bright pink), although it took a few months. Chances are, you can pawn off the canopy, and maybe even the ugly Talon, to another up and coming jumper who can't afford the best just yet.

I hope what I've said is helpful.

Blue Skies!

"Some people follow their dreams, others hunt them down and beat them mercilessly into submission."

[UDSkyJunkie 0]

Oh, one note I forgot to add... whoever told you that there is no reason to buy a cypres is not telling the whole story... consider:

1) getting knocked unconcious is very rare, but it DOES occur... you could get kicked in the head or have someone land on your burble, whatever.

2) true, you SHOULDN'T ever need the cypres unless you are unconcious, but look at the record of saves, and you'll find a lot of people who are alive today only because their cypres saved them, and almost all of them were concious at the time of firing

3) also true, the cypres can lead to two canopies out, but only if you are way too low in the first place. it fires at 750 feet, which is only about 4 seconds before impact. It also only fires if you are decending at a rate of more than 80 mph... so the only way it should fire is if you are either in freefall or a high-speed malfunction (total or pilot-chute in tow) at that altitude.

4) to date, the cypres, unlike some other AAD's has an astonishing ZERO misfires! A few cases were thought to be, but all of them have been proven false.

All this being said, I would like to say that the decision is, in the end, a personal one, and I would never tell anyone they have to use one. I certainly encourage it, though, and I have always and will always use one myself. To quote a fellow jumper: "I hope that my cypres never has to fire, and the money I spent on it was wasted, but if it ever does, I'll sure be glad to have it!"

Blue Skies!

"Some people follow their dreams, others hunt them down and beat them mercilessly into submission."