Why Separate HP & Standard Landing Areas Aren't Enough

[DocPop 1]

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>The longer you attempt to make this a 'swooper' only problem, the longer you do
>a disservice to skydivers as a whole.

The issue of collisions is a skydiver-wide problem. The issue of collisions after a 270 is a swooper-only problem. I am absolutely fine with telling ALL jumpers they can't do 270's when there is any other traffic in the air - but if I did that, I have a feeling you would take it (rightly) into a swooper-only issue.

But collisions are not just a 270 related problem. We had two students killed just recently.

If we try to relate deaths due to collisions to a type of turn, or a type of jumper, we are not addressing the whole problem, surely?

"The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls."

~ CanuckInUSA

[wmw999 2,122]

One solution can't fix everything. That doesn't mean that we don't do anything.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[popsjumper 2]

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>so yea, usually it's always the same people. tell them off, bann them from the dz for
>30 days, whatever it takes.

That's the problem. Jason Peters, a world-class competitive swooper and professional skydiver, recently almost killed another skydiver. They were the only two people in the air. He cleared his airspace before the swoop, and is about as safety conscious as they come. Are you going to ban him? ...

Doesn't that mean that he did not clear his airspace??

I hate to say it, but that's what it sounds like.

Absolutely!
And on top of that, there's the "enabler" mentality again.
If you're DZ popular, well-known, or a friend, you get a "pass".

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If so - do you think you can clear your airspace better than he can?

Now, what the hell does THAT have to do with it?
If you want to go THAT route, then I'll play the game with you, Bill and tell you, "Hell yes!"

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[popsjumper 2]

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One solution can't fix everything. That doesn't mean that we don't do anything.

Wendy P.

I'll ask you to repeat that to everyone who says, "do nothing yet because every proposal is a knee-jerk reaction."

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[mjosparky 3]

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>shouldnt we 'clear the airspace' hundreds of feet before starting the turn?

Yep. Which swoopers try to do. As we have seen, they fail with great regularity. This is either because all the swoopers who have had collisions or close calls are idiots - or because it's something that's simply not possible even for careful, conscientious swoopers.

Bill,

The longer you attempt to make this a 'swooper' only problem, the longer you do a disservice to skydivers as a whole.

The problem is across the board. Non-swoopers are flying into each other too, just as much.

Is there a problem with swoopers flying into people? YES
Is there a problem with non-swoopers flying into people? YES

Ian

One idea in not the solution to all problems. But does that mean that one idea should be cast out because it only addresses one portion of a known problem? As has been shown by the number of fatalities related to a 270 or HP landing in traffic we have the ability to prevent about half of them simply by not doing 270’s or HP landing is traffic. Traffic being more than one canopy in the air.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[jacketsdb23 45]

Folks -

Many of us are drunk with the notion that we are fully in control of our actions, including, when/where to rip a 270. On the surface we are. But we are incapable of making the right decision 100% of the time. A canopy collision (involving HP landing or not) is cast off as someone making a mistake, I can do better, I scan the sky, that person was an idiot, insert justification here.

The sooner most of us realize that we don't have the control we think we do, and aim to take some of the human elements out of the decision process, which time and time again fail, we are bound to the same fates.

I don't believe we have reached a tipping point in which a majority of those with influence believe there is a serious problem. Fatalities on average have been down the last few years. Unfortunately, there is a common trend to the fatalities that are happening. They shouldn't be cast off as "skydiving is dangerous".

It's impossible to create a solution to something when there are so many who don't see a problem. This is not a swooper vs. non-swooper issue. This is making everyone from the AFF graduate to the 10,000 canopy pilot world champion being responsible for their actions in the landing area. This is holding them accountable for vertical & horizontal separation, having a clear understanding of the separate HP vs. Non-HP landing areas, what areas are unacceptable to fly through, and understanding canopy flight is just as important as the skydive.

Many folks get this. Many do not and want to keep the status quo. Many people have tried addressing this issue and don't get the support required to effectively create change. This problem will continue until the politics and attitudes change. Until there is universal understanding that there is a problem, we can't do a damn thing about it.

Losers make excuses, Winners make it happen
God is Good
Beer is Great
Swoopers are crazy.

[jacketsdb23 45]

maybe there is some element of risk homeostasis in this whole problem. Fatalities aren't going up, they are just in a different category. Therefore, skydiving as a whole, is just as dangerous now as it was when most people started and people except that level of risk. Whether its in freefall, canopy deployment, or on landing...people accept the posed risks and aren't motivated to change it.

Losers make excuses, Winners make it happen
God is Good
Beer is Great
Swoopers are crazy.

[kallend 1,623]

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>The longer you attempt to make this a 'swooper' only problem, the longer you do
>a disservice to skydivers as a whole.

The issue of collisions is a skydiver-wide problem. The issue of collisions after a 270 is a swooper-only problem. I am absolutely fine with telling ALL jumpers they can't do 270's when there is any other traffic in the air - but if I did that, I have a feeling you would take it (rightly) into a swooper-only issue.

But collisions are not just a 270 related problem. We had two students killed just recently.

If we try to relate deaths due to collisions to a type of turn, or a type of jumper, we are not addressing the whole problem, surely?

There are a number of deaths in car accidents that are not caused by DUIs, but that doesn't mean we should do nothing about drunk driving.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kallend 1,623]

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Because if you are doing a 270 it is physically impossible to clear the airspace below you just by looking.

shouldnt we 'clear the airspace' hundreds of feet before starting the turn?

I don't believe it is physically possible to ensure that all the airspace you will occupy on a 270 or greater will be clear of conflicting traffic if other canopies are in the air. And even if it were, I doubt the average swooper has the necessary knowledge of dynamics to know where to look.

This, of course, doesn't apply to those with mad skilz.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[DocPop 1]

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There are a number of deaths in car accidents that are not caused by DUIs, but that doesn't mean we should do nothing about drunk driving.

I agree totally, but to continue your analogy, I am just saying that we should not ignore factors such as reckless driving by totally sober people IN ADDITION TO the drunk drivers.

(I am in no way condoning HP landings in traffic)

"The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls."

~ CanuckInUSA

[jumpwally 0]

For me thats big ass BS,,i can accept equipment failure and my own screw up but i will never accept getting taken out by some one under an open canopy....

smile, be nice, enjoy life
FB # - 1083

[jacketsdb23 45]

And you, and all of us, have the ability to remove ourselves from the equation. You should know where every HP pilot is during your pattern, fly defensively, and never allow yourself to be in a position to be taken out by someone who isn't paying attention.

It only takes one person to avoid a collision.

Losers make excuses, Winners make it happen
God is Good
Beer is Great
Swoopers are crazy.

[DSE 3]

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You should know where every HP pilot is during your pattern, fly defensively, and never allow yourself to be in a position to be taken out by someone who isn't paying attention.

It only takes one person to avoid a collision.

If the HP pilot is exiting after you (as a tandem videographer, for example, after you've just done an RW group jump) and you're lower/already under canopy by the time he's deploying, it's *very* hard to see who is above/behind you. They may well be flying faster. Hopefully they're observing the "low man" rule, but clearly, there have been several instances where the low man was injured or worse.
It's just not "that easy."

[jacketsdb23 45]

Point taken. But flying defensively is something we all can work on. We video guys land in the same spot almost every load...avoid that area. We do have separate landing areas at my dz so its a bit easier to avoid, but my point is...hp pilots are usually regulars at the dz and very predictable.

Obviously, even the best in the business screw up. Don't be there when they do.

Losers make excuses, Winners make it happen
God is Good
Beer is Great
Swoopers are crazy.

[mjosparky 3]

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Point taken. But flying defensively is something we all can work on. We video guys land in the same spot almost every load...avoid that area. We do have separate landing areas at my dz so its a bit easier to avoid, but my point is...hp pilots are usually regulars at the dz and very predictable.

Obviously, even the best in the business screw up. Don't be there when they do.

Are you saying that the jumper doing a standard pattern and landing must now be the one responsible for avoiding the HP pilot? Every jumper in the pattern has the ability to become a HP on any given jump. It’s just that most of them have the common sense and maturity not to do it in traffic. If you are a regular at the dz be it instructor or video flyer you should be held to the same safety standards as anyone else. If you are not willing to do a safe landing with other canopies around you should remove yourself from the equation.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[jacketsdb23 45]

I'm saying that there is no point to being right if you are dead right. Be defensive, hold everybody to the highest standards and don't make exceptions for anyone.

If someone screws up, hold them accountable. 19,000 jumps or 19.

Swooping in traffic is irresponsible and shouldn't be allowed for anyone.

Losers make excuses, Winners make it happen
God is Good
Beer is Great
Swoopers are crazy.

[mjosparky 3]

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I'm saying that there is no point to being right if you are dead right. Be defensive, hold everybody to the highest standards and don't make exceptions for anyone.

If someone screws up, hold them accountable. 19,000 jumps or 19.

Swooping in traffic is irresponsible and shouldn't be allowed for anyone.

Then it seems we agree.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[billvon 2,400]

>And you, and all of us, have the ability to remove ourselves from the equation.

Yes. You can do that by:

-not jumping.

-jumping only on loads where no HP landings are allowed.

>You should know where every HP pilot is during your pattern, fly defensively, and
>never allow yourself to be in a position to be taken out by someone who isn't paying
>attention.

You can't do it. There is no way you can protect yourself from someone who starts out directly above you and spirals into you. The Incidents forum has demonstrated that.

[jtiflyer 0]

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You can't do it. There is no way you can protect yourself from someone who starts out directly above you and spirals into you. The Incidents forum has demonstrated that.

WARNING! WARNING! Long winded response

Forgive me if I am wrong but you seem to imply that HP canopy pilots are the only ones who spiral down risk other peoples lives and are always in the wrong?

I am both a HP pilot and camera guy (among other things). So I frequently wait in brakes trying to match descent rates of those around me. Until I know I have a clear shot, where I won't overtake those below me. I have had to abort HP landings on several occasions do to non-HP "pilots" spiraling down and congesting the traffic pattern basically boxing me in with no outs. Most of the time due to my position at the dropzone you just have to shrug it off. If it happens repeatedly with the same people spiraling down, I usually have somebody else (I am far from tactful) mention it to the offending party.

So is it an issue of HP pilots flying with reckless abandon trying to kill everybody? NO its not. Is it an issue of EVERYBODY trying to kill you until you are back in the hangar ABSOLUTELY. At least that's how I teach/taught people (including jacketsdb23) to treat every other canopy in the sky.

I understand this is a very touchy topic for everybody, but it's a sport wide problem. Not just those of us that like to land with a little zip.

ETA: People won't believe I actually wrote this I added some smart ass remark such as: But then again what do I know my Post Count is still lower than my jump numbers

[mjosparky 3]

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You can't do it. There is no way you can protect yourself from someone who starts out directly above you and spirals into you. The Incidents forum has demonstrated that.

WARNING! WARNING! Long winded response

Forgive me if I am wrong but you seem to imply that HP canopy pilots are the only ones who spiral down risk other peoples lives and are always in the wrong?

I am both a HP pilot and camera guy (among other things). So I frequently wait in brakes trying to match descent rates of those around me. Until I know I have a clear shot, where I won't overtake those below me. I have had to abort HP landings on several occasions do to non-HP "pilots" spiraling down and congesting the traffic pattern basically boxing me in with no outs. Most of the time due to my position at the dropzone you just have to shrug it off. If it happens repeatedly with the same people spiraling down, I usually have somebody else (I am far from tactful) mention it to the offending party.

So is it an issue of HP pilots flying with reckless abandon trying to kill everybody? NO its not. Is it an issue of EVERYBODY trying to kill you until you are back in the hangar ABSOLUTELY. At least that's how I teach/taught people (including jacketsdb23) to treat every other canopy in the sky.

I understand this is a very touchy topic for everybody, but it's a sport wide problem. Not just those of us that like to land with a little zip.

You are right; it is not just HP canopy pilots that are a problem. It is everyone landing a parachute. If you are going to land in the main landing area then it should be required there be no spiraling, 207 turns or any other radical maneuver while in the pattern. If you were flying a standard pattern there would be no way for you to be boxed in with no outs. By trying to a HP landing in the pattern you are guilty of doing exactly what you are condemning the spiraling canopy of doing. Think about it, a 270 is a spiral.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[jacketsdb23 45]

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You can't do it. There is no way you can protect yourself from someone who starts out directly above you and spirals into you. The Incidents forum has demonstrated that.

You protect yourself by not allowing yourself to get directly under an HP pilot (for those DZ's that separate). We do separate, however, on occasion we have those that are oblivious due to lack of understanding or never getting properly briefed (visiting jumper). My point being, knowing who is an HP pilot on the load, and the exit order...you should under canopy get a visual to where they are and accommodate accordingly. If you need to fly in brakes to let them go by...so be it.
If everyone started to pay attention a little bit, and put more than an afterthought into the canopy portion of a skydive we would all be much better off.

This goes for everyone...High Performance Pilots and those like my dad jumping 260 challengers. Everyone must pay attention, landing areas must be separated (and enforced)...and it may come down to separate passes if people can't get their act together.

Losers make excuses, Winners make it happen
God is Good
Beer is Great
Swoopers are crazy.

[billvon 2,400]

>You protect yourself by not allowing yourself to get directly under an HP pilot.

OK. Scenario -

You are under a 1.5 to 1 loaded canopy. You see a 2 to 1 loaded canopy above you; he's hanging in brakes until most people land so he can do his 270. You try to keep your eye on him, but he's above you and it's tough. You turn onto final for the main area - and he disappears above your canopy.

How do you protect yourself then?

[billvon 2,400]

>you seem to imply that HP canopy pilots are the only ones who spiral down risk other
>peoples lives and are always in the wrong?

Not at all. Anyone who spirals down through traffic is a problem. HP canopy pilots, due to their much greater speed and their greater likelihood to do that below 1000 feet, are more of a risk when they do so, though.

>I have had to abort HP landings on several occasions do to non-HP "pilots" spiraling
>down and congesting the traffic pattern basically boxing me in with no outs.

A completely separate HP landing area would solve this problem.

One of the problems is the attitude that some people have (not just HP pilots) that "I can do whatever I want in the landing area as long as I have some clearance from other people." That has proven to not be true. The only way to be sure is to be the only person in the air.

[jtiflyer 0]

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You are right; it is not just HP canopy pilots that are a problem. It is everyone landing a parachute. If you are going to land in the main landing area then it should be required there be no spiraling, 207 turns or any other radical maneuver while in the pattern. If you were flying a standard pattern there would be no way for you to be boxed in with no outs. By trying to a HP landing in the pattern you are guilty of doing exactly what you are condemning the spiraling canopy of doing. Think about it, a 270 is a spiral.

Sparky

actually i never said in those instances I was setting up for a HP landing I just said I was waiting my turn trying not to overtake those lower than me. Whenever possible I land in HP landing area's. If I get boxed in I don't go. Simple as that. Even in tight landing area's with otter loads its not that hard to count canopies, know how many people are out before and count them. If you can't find one then you have to make a judgment call. If people don't spiral down its a lot easier. I find most of my traffic issues is shortly after opening when people are fiddling with gear and canopies that they fail to see others around them.

Also if the "main" landing area is designated for HP and non HP landings then one can argue I have just as much right to swoop as you do to straight in.

However I disagree that a 270 is a spiral.

[faulknerwn 36]

Here's an example - a few years ago we had several tandems on the load and I was doing video of the first one. Someone under a much more radical canopy than I was videoing a later one.

I never spiral, and I always have a goal of letting swoopers land first. I do NOT want to land before them. In this case, I think my tandem pulled a little lower, and they were holding brakes to make it back from a long spot. I was watching them - I was doing a standard right hand pattern into the middle of the main landing area. (Swoopers are not allowed to land there now but could back then.)

When I turned onto final, the other jumper was on the other side of the landing area, probably 500 feet above me. I knew he was gonna do a 270, but I hadn't the faintest clue where he was going to end up or where I should steer to avoid him.

He ended up whizzing by about 10 feet away from me literally as I took my first step. It was close..

In my case, I saw him, knew he was there, but he was above me, and though I knew he was going to do a 270, I had not a clue where I should fly to avoid him. All I knew was that he was going to do a radical turn and land somewhere..

It sucked. I have never felt more vulnerable under canopy than then..