riddler 0 #1 April 13, 2004 For riggers. You are doing a rig inspection before you repack the reserve. You notice that the reserve pin is slightly bent (see pics). What would you do? Remember that the poll option is anonymous, so be honest , but comments are also appreciated. Assume that you don't have a spare reserve ripcord lying around - you have to send away for one if you want to replace it. Also assume that the pin is a standard Capewell, but is POST recall - it was made recently. I've heard a few different opinions on this. One or two riggers gave me tips for the best way to straighten it out (apparently, a vice is the best tool to use). I'll give the full story in a few days and tell you what I did about it, but first I want to hear what others would do.Trapped on the surface of a sphere. XKCD Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 3 #2 April 13, 2004 From Capewell SB CW03-01: "For Straightness: Pins in excess of .005 (.12mm) deformation along the blade of the pin should be removed from service." SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jdfreefly 1 #3 April 13, 2004 I nearly watched a guy goin due to a bent pin. He didn't give up and eventually got his reserve out. I would say replace it. But hey, I'm not a rigger so what do I know? Methane Freefly - got stink? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
councilman24 36 #4 April 13, 2004 For years and years we've straightened pins like this. I use a small copper hammer against a block of wood. If you use a vise make sure its well padded with something like leather. I have had several rigs over the years that no matter whether I replaced the ripcord or not, it would come back in with a slightly bent pin. One guy took very good care of his rig and it wasn't very tight. But the geometry just made the pin bend a little. My reflex tends to bend the pin also. Capewell's service bulletin seems to me and others I've talked to (including the manufacturer who helped Capewell write it) to be overly cautious for non suspect pins. I recently retested a Ripcord that was puchased in Sept last year. It was tested by the manufacturer and marked. This pin bent under the 11 pound test condition but only in one of the four axes. This worried me because the pin doesn't seem to be symetrical in strength. It didn't bend very far, but because it only bent in one direction we're replacing it. It's never wrong to replace it, but pins have been bending like that for decades. If you replace it you may get the rig back with it bent again. Remember, these pins were designed to work with cones and may actually be too soft for the current sport applications. Also, just because it was ASSEMBLED recently doesn't mean it didn't use the suspect batch of pins. They weren't all recalled, simply tested. Capewell sells pins, pins on cable, and fully assembled ripcords. And there is no maditory or even sugested marking to indicate that it is made from post bulletin pins. So new ripcords, even with a later DOM on the handle, may have old pins that were tested, or new pins. Right now we have no way of knowing for sure. We also have at least one pin out there that was marked as tested but broke on retest, along with mine that bent. Never easy is it?I'm old for my age. Terry Urban D-8631 FAA DPRE Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 3 #5 April 13, 2004 It may be overly cautious but it is mandatory. The manufacture that you speak of is the one who wrote the test. I have a copy that was out before capewell signed on. SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 3 #6 April 13, 2004 It may be overly cautious but it is mandatory. SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
councilman24 36 #7 April 13, 2004 Mandatory under the service bulletin for "All Capewell Supplied Ripcord Pins and/or Ripcords from November 28, 2001 through to July 15, 2003." But I wouldn't apply the standard of "0.012 mm" or "not straight, as visible without magnification" as madatory for pins not showing deformation under the service bulletin and it's testing procedures. If I did there are many rigs on which I'd have to replace the ripcord every pack job. And unfortunately only indirectly "mandatory" at all based on the "manufacturers instructions" since the FAA refuses to issue airworthyness directives, which have the force of law, for parachutes or their components.I'm old for my age. Terry Urban D-8631 FAA DPRE Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #8 April 13, 2004 Quotepins have been bending like that for decades. If you replace it you may get the rig back with it bent again. Remember, these pins were designed to work with cones and may actually be too soft for the current sport applications. I've started having this problem with my Racer reserve since the Capewell broken pin scare. During a reserve repack, it was noticed that my pin was very slightly bent, so it was replaced, costing me an extra $35. The replacement pin was tested for flaws via the Capewell recommendations, and passed. Upon my next reserve repack, that tested pin now also had a very slight bend in it. Fortunately, my rigger talked the gear manufacturer into providing a free replacement ripcord, this time. So I now fear that I will have to automatically buy a new ripcord every 120 days to go along with every reserve repack... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riddler 0 #9 April 13, 2004 QuoteIf I did there are many rigs on which I'd have to replace the ripcord every pack job. Is it possible that the pins are bending during the repack upon releasing the tension of the reserve closing loop too quickly after the pin is inserted? I know that impulse force (the force of a shock or impact) can easily be several times a static force. It seems like quickly letting off tension on the closing loop may increase the force on the pin for a split-second. Or do you suspect that they are more often getting bent in the field? I've also heard riggers say that some container brands are more prone to bend the pin because spring force is high.Trapped on the surface of a sphere. XKCD Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
councilman24 36 #10 April 13, 2004 The geometry of my Reflex supports the end of the pin "higher" than the grommet. The other one that always bends in a 1991 Talon. On this particular rig / reserve the grommet is the highest point, so any pressure on the pin protector is pressure on the pin. I've serviced a number of other rigs over the years that seemed to bend the pin. In the early days (20 years ago) I thought I might have them too tight, but some bent it no matter how loose the loop. No, they're not bending from the shock load of releasing the tension. It's not abuse either. It's just normal use of some particular rigs.I'm old for my age. Terry Urban D-8631 FAA DPRE Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
councilman24 36 #11 April 13, 2004 QuoteI've started having this problem with my Racer reserve since the Capewell broken pin scare You didn't just start having it, you just starting noticing it. QuoteDuring a reserve repack, it was noticed that my pin was very slightly bent, so it was replaced, costing me an extra $35. The replacement pin was tested for flaws via the Capewell recommendations, and passed. Upon my next reserve repack, that tested pin now also had a very slight bend in it. Fortunately, my rigger talked the gear manufacturer into providing a free replacement ripcord, this time. So I now fear that I will have to automatically buy a new ripcord every 120 days to go along with every reserve repack... Older Racer's seemed prone to bending pins also, in a similar way to my Reflex. I don't have any experience with newer Racer's. Again, I and some other riggers I respect believe the "bend" standard in the Capewell bulletin is too restrictive, especially for non suspect pins. Pins that bend that much during the test are suspect, but pins that have that much bend or more from use can be just fine. We've all been straightening slightly bent pins for decades. I think your going to find that you'll have a "bent" pin by that definition every pack job. This is one area that needs a little common sense applied.I'm old for my age. Terry Urban D-8631 FAA DPRE Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Pablito 0 #12 April 13, 2004 question aren't main pins bent? "If you don't overcome your fears they will overcome you first" Shady Monkey/6Segundos Rodriguez/AKA Pablito Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sundevil777 93 #13 April 13, 2004 I predict that there will be a better pin in the near future. I have gone on about this before "Are good pins good enough?" http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=576241;#576241People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
councilman24 36 #14 April 13, 2004 Quotequestion aren't main pins bent? Main pins are cut from stainless steel and sewn to the bridle. Throw out pins are bent to enable the pin to rotate and the bridle to pull it out easily. Throw out pins are straight since the jumper pulls the pin. Reserve pins are made by cold forging and have to be swaged to the cable. By definition of the process the metal has to be soft enough to "flow" into and grip the steel cable. Two different beasts.I'm old for my age. Terry Urban D-8631 FAA DPRE Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 3 #15 April 13, 2004 Quote And unfortunately only indirectly "mandatory" at all based on the "manufacturers instructions" since the FAA refuses to issue airworthyness directives, which have the force of law, for parachutes or their components. These are all AD's issued by the FAA. AD 80-13-01 Strong, Withdraw bent plastic ripcord handle, Aerospace Standard AS 8015A, 206A, AD 84-06-05 3-Ring recall, All containers, Technical Standard Order TSO C23c and C23d , 205B, AD 84-10-03 Herbie Hog, withdraw bent plastic ripcord handle, AD 86-22-07 Swift, correct Swift Reserve pattern size, 304A, AD 86-24-03 K-Series Reserves, recall of bad fabric, 322B, AD 86-24-03/1 K-Series Reserves, additional recall for bad fabric, 322B, AD 88-05-08 Security, recall all SAC reserves, 322B, AD 89-13-03 SAC, bad mesh acid testing and neutralisation, 214A, AD 91-02-05 GQ Parachutes, tensile test for rectifying SAC, 213A, AD 93-08-02 Talon, recall Skyhook reserve pilotchutes, AD 99-01-11 Vector Amp fitting on Cutaway Housing SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
councilman24 36 #16 April 13, 2004 And you notice none since 1999, although some manufactures have requested them. Right now you can't get one no matter what. PIA, and I believe USPA, have protested to the Administrator that safety is now being compromised. PIA Rigging Committee Chair PIA Parachute Certification Standards Committee Co-ChairI'm old for my age. Terry Urban D-8631 FAA DPRE Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #17 April 13, 2004 QuoteQuoteI've started having this problem with my Racer reserve since the Capewell broken pin scare You didn't just start having it, you just starting noticing it. Yes, you're probably correct - now we are all much more sensitive to this and scrutinizing it more closely. It seems like just a degree or two of bend wouldn't compromise pull forces. QuoteAgain, I and some other riggers I respect believe the "bend" standard in the Capewell bulletin is too restrictive, especially for non suspect pins. Pins that bend that much during the test are suspect, but pins that have that much bend or more from use can be just fine. We've all been straightening slightly bent pins for decades. I think your going to find that you'll have a "bent" pin by that definition every pack job. This is one area that needs a little common sense applied. If the manufacturers agree, then this word needs to get out to the riggers in the field. The Jump Shack is actually sending a rigger to Skydive Houston to, among other things, give a seminar on rigging for Racers, which hopefully will include how not to bend the pins. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riddler 0 #18 April 14, 2004 QuoteIt seems like just a degree or two of bend wouldn't compromise pull forces. I don't think anyone would scrutinize one or two degrees. You couldn't see it or feel it, so it wouldn't be suspect. The pics of the bend I showed in the original post is closer to 10 degrees. Would that compromise pull forces?Trapped on the surface of a sphere. XKCD Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riddler 0 #19 April 14, 2004 Update: OK, so before I started this thread, I sent an email to hooknswoop. He advised that the pin needs to be replaced, and I agree. It was interesting to hear some riggers suggest straighten it or leave it alone - I disagree with that, but I'm not judging anyone's choices. I feel that the amount of bend would compromise pull forces, and I'm not willing to do that, even if may only be a small amount. I also feel that even small bending and rebending in a stainless pin of this diameter will reduce the overall shear strength of the pin, although I have no test results to back that statement up. I called Mirage Systems, and we determined that for unusual reasons, this was a pin that was part of last year's recall, but never tested or replaced. Long story there. The previous rigger, IMO, should have tested it, but did not. Thanks to Justin at Mirage - he gave great service and as soon as it was deemed affected by the service bulletin, he immediately shipped a new reserve ripcord out to me, in exchange for this one. That kind of customer service is remembered next time I buy a container Thanks everyone for your opinions.Trapped on the surface of a sphere. XKCD Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NightJumper 0 #20 April 14, 2004 As a manufacture that makes the actual pin and ripcord assemblies I will tell you that if our pin has a tip deflection of greater than 0.125" it should be replaced. Any pin that is straightened should be visually inspected and load tested prior to being put back into use. If in doubt, have your rigger return it to the manufacture for testing. We conduct this test for free. We are also presently conducting test on how much and how many times a pin can be bent and straightened and remain serviceable. We have been able to make up to three ninety-degree bends before pin failure. Also, it should be noted that one of the leading causes of bent pins is not packing or pin integrity but rather taking a packed rig and dropping or throwing it on the ground. On impact additional stress is added to the loaded pin that can cause it to bend. Remember the pin is always under pressure. Stay safe, Mike Forsythe Jump Shack Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 3 #21 April 15, 2004 QuoteAlso, it should be noted that one of the leading causes of bent pins is not packing or pin integrity but rather taking a packed rig and dropping or throwing it on the ground. On impact additional stress is added to the loaded pin that can cause it to bend. Remember the pin is always under pressure. Mike, Thanks for this bit of info. I know I had never thought dropping the rig would cause that problem. SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
brits17 0 #22 April 15, 2004 QuoteThe Jump Shack is actually sending a rigger to Skydive Houston to, among other things, give a seminar on rigging for Racers, which hopefully will include how not to bend the pins. Hey John, Well Mike beat me to it, but I was going to say that I don't believe the bent pin(s) on your Racer was due to packing techniques. After packing many Racers, yours is the only one I have come across with the bent pin problem, and I am sure the rigger who packed it before me packed it in a relatively similar manner as far as the loop tightening is concerned. I know we both leave the temp pins in until its as tight as necessary, and do not tamper with tightening the loop after the temp pins are out. Like Mike noted, it could be from dropping the rig, or some other unknown reason. Someone else noted they've seen this in particularly older Racers... oh well, see you this weekend. _______________________ aerialkinetics.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
councilman24 36 #23 April 15, 2004 QuoteAs a manufacture that makes the actual pin and ripcord assemblies I will tell you that if our pin has a tip deflection of greater than 0.125" it should be replaced. .....Stay safe, Mike Forsythe Jump Shack This is a more reasonable standard. Than the 0.005" in the Capewell spec.I'm old for my age. Terry Urban D-8631 FAA DPRE Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
