nightjumps 1 #1 March 25, 2004 As you probably read in the "Incidents Forum," one of our local skydivers was involved in a plane crash and was injured. While injured and to the objection of the skydivers on-scene, the EMT's cut the skydiver's rig off for a back board and life-flight transport. 1. The main lift web was cut in half on both sides just below the handles. 2. The chest strap was cut in half. 3. The lateral webs were cut in half on both sides. 4. The leg-straps were not cut and are still attached to the articulation hardware The rig is a 2003 Mirage. The injured skydiver is healing well and is going through the mental algorithms of having the Mirage fixed (~$700) or buying new. Economically, it would be better to have it repaired. Psychologically, there is an issue of "gear fear" with the structural integrity of a rebuilt harness with that much damage. It's going to be hard enough getting back on a plane after a crash. Factor in that first ride, with a first jump since the injury, with a reconstructed harness. The skydiver's options are; 1) buy a new rig, 2) get it reconstructed and ask for factory test jumps, 3) ask someone local to test jump it for visual and psychological reinforcement. Some of you (senior/master riggers only, please) with years of experience that could add any insight, thoughts, or quantitative advice about a reconstructed harness during this decision-making process would be greatly appreciated. Please feel free to be blunt. The skydiver is a very black & white analytical thinker (doctor) that appreciates and respects direct negative or positive responses with strong opinions. Thanks, Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
KevinMcGuire 0 #2 March 25, 2004 Don't worry about it. From the sounds of it, the rig was cut off in just the right way. I myself am an EMT and have had to cut rigs off people before. while the repair is an extensive one it is actually not that difficult. There are two ways to go. 1) you can have it sent back to the manufacture and have them install a new harness or 2) you could send it to me or some one else who is qualified to make this type of repair. I have replaced dozens of harness's for just this reason. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
KellyF 16 #3 March 25, 2004 There should be no appreciable structural differences. The harness won't get reconstructed, it will get replaced with new webbing and will have to pass through the same final inspection that it went through when it was new. When I worked at RWS, we had a rig come in where the EMT's tried to cut through the yoke of the rig. They ran into the housings and figured they'd have better luck cutting somewhere else I believe we made a new riser cover, backpad, and harness for that rig and put it back in service Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites KevinMcGuire 0 #4 March 25, 2004 P.S. Don't be too hard on the medics or EMT's that cut rigs. Their primary concern is the safety of the patient. When some one hits the ground hard, they are considered to have suffered a "mechanism of injury" that warrants extra precautions be taken to ensure no further cervical spinal injury occurs. Quite simply the only way to do that is to cut the rig. Rigs can be replaced. Spinal cords can't Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites PhreeZone 15 #5 March 25, 2004 Side spin off... what is the best way to cut a rig off someone?Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites nightjumps 1 #6 March 25, 2004 No, No. The medics did their job and no one questioned what they had to do, merely where they were going to do it (main & reserve risers). In fact, the skydiver's suggested where the webs should be cut. Even the injured skydiver understood what had to be done in the context of safely sliding the backboard. I think the majority of us in a situation where medics "think" it has to be done, should go ahead and do it. We can worry about rigs later and appreciate their professionalism. The focus of this thread is for Rigger's to provide information on whether to rebuild the rig or buy new. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites KevinMcGuire 0 #7 March 25, 2004 The best place to make cuts to remove a rig off of some one is to cut the main lift webs below the handles if possible and to cut the leg and chest straps. That will get the patient out of the harness. It is not usually necessary to cut the lateral but that will depend on the position of the patient. Try to instruct the medics to not cut through the yoke (AKA shoulder area) of the rig. That usually makes damage too costly to repair. Don't worry about cutting leg pads. They are easy to replace Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rigging65 0 #8 March 25, 2004 QuoteThe best place to make cuts to remove a rig off of some one is to cut the main lift webs below the handles if possible and to cut the leg and chest straps. While there is certainly nothing wrong with this, I disagree with it. IMO, cutting the laterals, and nothing else, is the easiest way to get the rig off...and I've cut many of them off. You can un-do the chest strap and leg straps, then by simply cutting the laterals, you can lift the MLWs over the victims head and they're out. The repair is very simple, just lift the backpad, replace the lateral, and close the backpad. The one caveat to this would be with a dual articulated rig. Then, I would only cut the MLW between the articulations, and rotate the four "sections" up and out of the way (after un-doing the legs and chest). It's very easy to repair that section...like 30 minutes or an hour, at most. Of course, if the situation is truly emergent, then we're going to cut whatever makes it fastest. FWIW, I'm an EMT in Paramedic school with a large Fire Dept. I'm also a Volunteer firefighter at the station right across the runway from our DZ...and a Master Rigger...so I've done this once or twice and have seen it from both sides. We actually drill our Volunteers every year on how to cut harnesses off of jumpers...something I know other DZs have discussed with their First Responders, with much success. "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites councilman24 36 #9 March 25, 2004 Look at it this way. The rebuilt harness will be better because it won't have the wear and tear of the original. Send it to the factory. If he trusted it to begin with he should trust the replacement.I'm old for my age. Terry Urban D-8631 FAA DPRE Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites KevinMcGuire 0 #10 March 25, 2004 (cutting the laterals, and nothing else, is the easiest way to get the rig off...and I've cut many of them off. You can un-do the chest strap and leg straps, then by simply cutting the laterals, you can lift the MLWs over the victims head and they're out. ) I see your point. I'll have to try that next time. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites douwanto 22 #11 March 25, 2004 I cant beleive Mirage wants $700 to repair this rig??? Is that a quote from Mirage??? Chris Uncle/GrandPapa Whit Unico Rodriguez # 245 Muff Brother # 2421 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 2,446 #12 March 25, 2004 >what is the best way to cut a rig off someone? Depends on the rig. Does it have chest rings? If yes, cut the main lift webs below the rings and handles. That way only the center section of the MLW has to be replaced. If it doesn't? The laterals are probably the next best bet. Cutting the MLW on a rig without chest rings often requires replacement of the reserve risers depending on where the cut is made. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites GravityGirl 0 #13 March 25, 2004 Quote Quote -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The best place to make cuts to remove a rig off of some one is to cut the main lift webs below the handles if possible and to cut the leg and chest straps. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- While there is certainly nothing wrong with this, I disagree with it. IMO, cutting the laterals, and nothing else, is the easiest way to get the rig off...and I've cut many of them off. You can un-do the chest strap and leg straps, then by simply cutting the laterals, you can lift the MLWs over the victims head and they're out. This doesn't work that well if they are lying face down. I think the proper solution is a case by case evaluation of the situation. Just my opinion. Worth what you paid for it.... ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Peace and Blue Skies! Bonnie ==>Gravity Gear! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rigging65 0 #14 March 26, 2004 QuoteThis doesn't work that well if they are lying face down. It's not perfect, but in my experience, if someone remains laying facedown after an accident, they are generally in an pretty emergent situation, so all bets are off. You cut where you can to get them extricated as fast as can be done safely. It's human nature to want to role over and not have your face in the mud if you can. If you can't, it's generally because you're messed up. I do have to say, though, I've taken rigs off two people that were laying face down and didn't want to move (both had EMS experience and wanted to ensure C-spine precautions were maintained on themselves), I did everything the same, except I had to cut the leg straps and chest strap as well. QuoteI think the proper solution is a case by case evaluation of the situation. This is most certainly true!! "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites FrogNog 1 #15 March 26, 2004 Quote (cutting the laterals, and nothing else, is the easiest way to get the rig off...and I've cut many of them off. You can un-do the chest strap and leg straps, then by simply cutting the laterals, you can lift the MLWs over the victims head and they're out. ) I see your point. I'll have to try that next time. A bruised jumper-friend recently showed me her rig, where they cut the stopper stitching to unfold them and pass them through the hardware. Obviously this will take time, but if time is available, it's less or no webbing to cut. -=-=-=-=- Pull. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites nightjumps 1 #16 March 26, 2004 My understanding is the ~$700 rebuild quote was a worst case scenario. Since posting this thread this morning, Mirage has contacted the skydiver and had a long talk about how a reconstruction is done. The skydiver is sending the Mirage back to the factory in the morning. From the manufacturer's point of view, its hard to quote a price over the phone without seeing the damage that's been done. Evidently, it requires quite a bit of work to undo and redo. Kind of like trying to rebuild a house after a tornado has hit it. It's always easier to build it once, than undo it and redo it. On that note, Mirage's personal attention in contacting the skydiver is a testament to their customer service. They expressed a willingness to work with the skydiver on the repairs, reinforced the particulars of the rebuild and assured the skydiver that the rebuild would be as good as new, "if not better." Thank you all for your input, the skydiver has been monitoring the thread and your reassurances and offers to help are once again, the reason why ya gots to love this big dysfunctional family we call, "skydivers." People whom have never met from all walks of life, every age bracket, different corners of the planet and socio-economic background all reaching out to help during a time of need. We live together, play together, fight together, cry together and when one needs help; put all differences aside and - help together. For me, skydiving is the closet thing to "team-concept" since my days in the military. Thank you all. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. 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KevinMcGuire 0 #4 March 25, 2004 P.S. Don't be too hard on the medics or EMT's that cut rigs. Their primary concern is the safety of the patient. When some one hits the ground hard, they are considered to have suffered a "mechanism of injury" that warrants extra precautions be taken to ensure no further cervical spinal injury occurs. Quite simply the only way to do that is to cut the rig. Rigs can be replaced. Spinal cords can't Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 15 #5 March 25, 2004 Side spin off... what is the best way to cut a rig off someone?Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nightjumps 1 #6 March 25, 2004 No, No. The medics did their job and no one questioned what they had to do, merely where they were going to do it (main & reserve risers). In fact, the skydiver's suggested where the webs should be cut. Even the injured skydiver understood what had to be done in the context of safely sliding the backboard. I think the majority of us in a situation where medics "think" it has to be done, should go ahead and do it. We can worry about rigs later and appreciate their professionalism. The focus of this thread is for Rigger's to provide information on whether to rebuild the rig or buy new. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
KevinMcGuire 0 #7 March 25, 2004 The best place to make cuts to remove a rig off of some one is to cut the main lift webs below the handles if possible and to cut the leg and chest straps. That will get the patient out of the harness. It is not usually necessary to cut the lateral but that will depend on the position of the patient. Try to instruct the medics to not cut through the yoke (AKA shoulder area) of the rig. That usually makes damage too costly to repair. Don't worry about cutting leg pads. They are easy to replace Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rigging65 0 #8 March 25, 2004 QuoteThe best place to make cuts to remove a rig off of some one is to cut the main lift webs below the handles if possible and to cut the leg and chest straps. While there is certainly nothing wrong with this, I disagree with it. IMO, cutting the laterals, and nothing else, is the easiest way to get the rig off...and I've cut many of them off. You can un-do the chest strap and leg straps, then by simply cutting the laterals, you can lift the MLWs over the victims head and they're out. The repair is very simple, just lift the backpad, replace the lateral, and close the backpad. The one caveat to this would be with a dual articulated rig. Then, I would only cut the MLW between the articulations, and rotate the four "sections" up and out of the way (after un-doing the legs and chest). It's very easy to repair that section...like 30 minutes or an hour, at most. Of course, if the situation is truly emergent, then we're going to cut whatever makes it fastest. FWIW, I'm an EMT in Paramedic school with a large Fire Dept. I'm also a Volunteer firefighter at the station right across the runway from our DZ...and a Master Rigger...so I've done this once or twice and have seen it from both sides. We actually drill our Volunteers every year on how to cut harnesses off of jumpers...something I know other DZs have discussed with their First Responders, with much success. "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
councilman24 36 #9 March 25, 2004 Look at it this way. The rebuilt harness will be better because it won't have the wear and tear of the original. Send it to the factory. If he trusted it to begin with he should trust the replacement.I'm old for my age. Terry Urban D-8631 FAA DPRE Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
KevinMcGuire 0 #10 March 25, 2004 (cutting the laterals, and nothing else, is the easiest way to get the rig off...and I've cut many of them off. You can un-do the chest strap and leg straps, then by simply cutting the laterals, you can lift the MLWs over the victims head and they're out. ) I see your point. I'll have to try that next time. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
douwanto 22 #11 March 25, 2004 I cant beleive Mirage wants $700 to repair this rig??? Is that a quote from Mirage??? Chris Uncle/GrandPapa Whit Unico Rodriguez # 245 Muff Brother # 2421 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,446 #12 March 25, 2004 >what is the best way to cut a rig off someone? Depends on the rig. Does it have chest rings? If yes, cut the main lift webs below the rings and handles. That way only the center section of the MLW has to be replaced. If it doesn't? The laterals are probably the next best bet. Cutting the MLW on a rig without chest rings often requires replacement of the reserve risers depending on where the cut is made. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GravityGirl 0 #13 March 25, 2004 Quote Quote -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The best place to make cuts to remove a rig off of some one is to cut the main lift webs below the handles if possible and to cut the leg and chest straps. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- While there is certainly nothing wrong with this, I disagree with it. IMO, cutting the laterals, and nothing else, is the easiest way to get the rig off...and I've cut many of them off. You can un-do the chest strap and leg straps, then by simply cutting the laterals, you can lift the MLWs over the victims head and they're out. This doesn't work that well if they are lying face down. I think the proper solution is a case by case evaluation of the situation. Just my opinion. Worth what you paid for it.... ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Peace and Blue Skies! Bonnie ==>Gravity Gear! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rigging65 0 #14 March 26, 2004 QuoteThis doesn't work that well if they are lying face down. It's not perfect, but in my experience, if someone remains laying facedown after an accident, they are generally in an pretty emergent situation, so all bets are off. You cut where you can to get them extricated as fast as can be done safely. It's human nature to want to role over and not have your face in the mud if you can. If you can't, it's generally because you're messed up. I do have to say, though, I've taken rigs off two people that were laying face down and didn't want to move (both had EMS experience and wanted to ensure C-spine precautions were maintained on themselves), I did everything the same, except I had to cut the leg straps and chest strap as well. QuoteI think the proper solution is a case by case evaluation of the situation. This is most certainly true!! "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FrogNog 1 #15 March 26, 2004 Quote (cutting the laterals, and nothing else, is the easiest way to get the rig off...and I've cut many of them off. You can un-do the chest strap and leg straps, then by simply cutting the laterals, you can lift the MLWs over the victims head and they're out. ) I see your point. I'll have to try that next time. A bruised jumper-friend recently showed me her rig, where they cut the stopper stitching to unfold them and pass them through the hardware. Obviously this will take time, but if time is available, it's less or no webbing to cut. -=-=-=-=- Pull. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nightjumps 1 #16 March 26, 2004 My understanding is the ~$700 rebuild quote was a worst case scenario. Since posting this thread this morning, Mirage has contacted the skydiver and had a long talk about how a reconstruction is done. The skydiver is sending the Mirage back to the factory in the morning. From the manufacturer's point of view, its hard to quote a price over the phone without seeing the damage that's been done. Evidently, it requires quite a bit of work to undo and redo. Kind of like trying to rebuild a house after a tornado has hit it. It's always easier to build it once, than undo it and redo it. On that note, Mirage's personal attention in contacting the skydiver is a testament to their customer service. They expressed a willingness to work with the skydiver on the repairs, reinforced the particulars of the rebuild and assured the skydiver that the rebuild would be as good as new, "if not better." Thank you all for your input, the skydiver has been monitoring the thread and your reassurances and offers to help are once again, the reason why ya gots to love this big dysfunctional family we call, "skydivers." People whom have never met from all walks of life, every age bracket, different corners of the planet and socio-economic background all reaching out to help during a time of need. We live together, play together, fight together, cry together and when one needs help; put all differences aside and - help together. For me, skydiving is the closet thing to "team-concept" since my days in the military. Thank you all. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
