BASE Progression, Aerials: From KL Tower thread

[JaapSuter 0]

Quote

I would be suprised if i wasn't damn close to ~80-100.

BASE isn't going anywhere. Why rush? Savour the moments. You can only jump a new object once.

edit for thread name ~TA

[dmcoco84 4]

Quote

Quote

I would be suprised if i wasn't damn close to ~80-100.

BASE isn't going anywhere. Why rush? Savour the moments. You can only jump a new object once.

No rush…I just love BASE. If you find something you love why only do it every once in a while… And being at the exit point is one of the most comfortable and happiest places I have ever found myself. On many occasions I have found myself ready to jump but just standing there looking over the rail at the landscape, breathing the fresh air and realizing how lucky I am to be able to take part in such a life affirming activity. I’d jump every day if I could!

You can only jump a new object once?? Huh??

Coco

[JaapSuter 0]

Quote

You can only jump a new object once?? Huh?

The second time it won't be new anymore. That doesn't mean it won't be fun anymore, but my first jumps of an object have been an order of magnitude more enjoyable than any other jumps.

[dmcoco84 4]

Quote

The second time it won't be new anymore. That doesn't mean it won't be fun anymore, but my first jumps of an object have been an order of magnitude more enjoyable than any other jumps.

Oh well yea! New objects are great and with the help of my DC buddies I was able to open up a new object in my area!! Thanks guys that kicked ass and I can’t wait to have you back! And I’ll be back up there after May 12th for sure!!

But I’d definitely have to say that the double back flip I did off it last jump was a lot more of a rush than the flat and stable I did on my first jump off it. But yes, that first jump off a new object does have a very special and different feeling to it than subsequent jumps!

Coco

[JaapSuter 0]

Quote

I was able to open up a new object in my area!

Right on dude!

[tobiasz 0]

Quote

But I’d definitely have to say that the double back flip I did off it last jump was a lot more of a rush than the flat and stable I did on my first jump off it. Coco

you've got 36 jumps... and did double back flip??
hmm... you are creazy...
stay safe bro

[fastpete 0]

i have 180 now and i havent done such a thing/flip....dont kill youself man...be carefull

_____________________________________________
F......ck the Finns !!!
FastPete www.pete.fi email: [email protected]

[lifewithoutanet 0]

But watching you and Michelle turn points off of KL was pretty damn cool.

Along the same lines, I didn't do my first gainer until KL and that was jump #81. Did 5 more after that, but haven't done a single one off another object.

F the Finns,
-C.

[dmcoco84 4]

Oh Yes! I'm very carefully. But as I said from a previous post I have done a lot of work on the ground before I ever tried anything in BASE.

From another post:

Quote

I did my first gainer there last year (BD 05)on my 9th jump. I've been doing gymnastic for training for a while but didn't feel ready to try anything off of an A. After doing the gainer at Bridge Day, then acquiring a few more jumps (17 - mostly working on Sub-T tracking from 1100) for a better comfort level in the BASE environment, and doing more ground training, I started doing them off A's. Now I’m dialing in my double front and double back flips.

Quote

Yes I did start doing aerials a lot earlier than most people but I have the ground training to back it up. If I could find some damn platform diving closer than 10+ hours away I'd be doing that too. Plus every aerial I've done so far has been from 850-1100 feet. So if I fuck up I have plenty of time to recover. I think it’s all about your comfort zone and what you feel your abilities can handle. At the moment I don’t think I’m pushing to hard. Now I'd definitely not be doing what I do from 900 feet out in TF. At the moment I can do 2 solid back flips come out into my track and get a good 2-3 second track before I deploy. I have spent hours watching videos of other people’s aerials, (rewinding and each time looking at a different part of their body as they do the aerial, I’m very meticulous) and I do gymnastics (but on a hold right now due to Fire Academy, will start back up after May 12). So far I have 1 single front, 3 single back, 1 double front and 5 double back. All have been very smooth.!

Coco

[dmcoco84 4]

I just wanted to add something. I was just talking to a buddy about my last post and he wanted to let me know how he perceived that post. He stated that “throwing doubles off A's with 36 jumps is not a good thing for the guys who are evaluating jumpers for a high-profile event to know” and “but right, wrong or indifferent...it doesn't paint the most conservative picture to someone who doesn't know you (the organizers).” Very good points! I appreciate all constructive criticism.

Yes, doing aerials at my level is definitely on the less conservative side of BASE jumping than what has generally been observed through this sports progression up to today. Every time I make a post I try to think about how others will perceive what I have said. Sometimes I catch shit for it and sometimes I make a good point and am applauded. I was aware that this and my last posts about the aerials I have done at my level would most likely be looked at negatively. But regardless I think honesty is very important and I would much rather someone know the type of jumper I am than to give false perceptions or hide the truth. Even though I am moving at a less conservative pace in my “BASE career” I feel I have taken many steps to ensure that the types of jumps I choose to do are backed by research (speaking to people first hand about technique {got some great advice on gainers at BD from Kenyon Salo, thanks again!}, reading articles like Aerials in BASE by DW, and analyzing aerial technique through repeated viewings of videos), and sport/technique specific ground training (gymnastics, diving, trampoline) like that in which I do in gymnastics. I wish I could utilize high platform dive training like those jumpers in this sport who are the best of the best in aerobatic base but there is unfortunately none in my area or within 2-3 hours (Best I have found is 3M spring which I will probably end up using. Besides BD you’ll never find a spring board at an exit point but spring is better than nothing.)

One very high profile jumper stated he started doing gainers on his 13th jump. “I trained off of really big cliffs where I had a lot of time. I knew that if I messed it up I’d have enough time to recover and track away and still open safely. So most of my acrobatics in the beginning were off of very big cliffs. So that’s where I trained to start with. But I then wanted to do things a little bit more complicated…” He then talks about dive training to add twists, changing the directions of his flips and cleaning up his acrobatics to make them look nicer. I too only do aerials from high objects (with adequate wind conditions) to give me more time to deal with a problem. My aerials are also quite basic when it comes to aerobatics in BASE as a whole. Now don’t get me wrong. I’m not using this person to say it’s all right for me to be doing aerials at my skill level because “he did.” I’m simply stating that with adequate training, research, “safer” and higher objects, aerobatics can be done early on and not always be looked at as a reckless decision. I definitely do not feel I am “immortal or bullet proof.”

Yes, speaking about the types of jumps I do may look negatively in the eyes of an organizer and if that’s the case I can always apply next year or the year after once I have acquired more jumps and more references that would speak highly of me. At the moment I would say I have a few good references that could comment on my personality/character and a few that I have jumped with who can comment on my decisions, attitude, and abilities so far. This summer I will doing a lot more traveling and will have the ability to meet other jumpers and demonstrate to them that I am a safe jumper and that I make smart decisions.

One of my biggest goals in life is to travel the world, BASE jump in as many different countries as I can while meeting and jumping with as many different people as I can. Perception is everything! And although many of you may at this moment have a negative initial perception of me with what I said in my last post, I will just have to meet more of you and prove ya wrong!

L8er
Coco

Edit for Spelling

[tobiasz 0]

No worry... just be safe.
No one wants attack you.

Everyone is just jealous

Peace

[dmcoco84 4]

I’m fine with hearing people’s opinions. I’ve got thick skin. Opinions and constructive criticism are welcome. Over 200 people have viewed this post since I posted so someone has gotta have an opinion. I highly doubt that it’s going to change my feelings but I am genuinely interested.

Coco

[HELLvetic 0]

No worries man... It's all good! If you feel confident you can throw something in Base because you have previous experience "on the ground", then chances are it will turn out alright. (Provided you have the basics of base jumping drilled in and that you truthfully evaluate yourself regarding your skills to throw the manoeuvre)

Jump numbers are not that relevant in my opinion. I have seen guys throw their first gainer at over a 100 jumps and completly hose them cause they never threw a flip on a diving board at the pool or on a trampoline before. I, like you, have been a gymnast when I was a kid, spend lots of my teenage summers at the local pool diving off the 10 meter platform just for fun. This is really the kind of experience that will help you throw a nice, "safe" and controlled aerial in BASE.
You are ok in my book coco!!
At least you have the balls to fess up to your antics. I tend to keep my "politically incorrect" antics/progression/fuckups to myself.

_________________________________________
Signature Max Size:
4 lines, 200 characters

[lifewithoutanet 0]

Quote

Jump numbers are not that relevant in my opinion.

I don't quite agree with that statement, especially when you're talking about someone with low jump numbers. This isn't supposed to be a dig at/about David (Coco), but I'm going to use that example because we're already talking about it and I don't think he'll mind.

Quote

I have seen guys throw their first gainer at over a 100 jumps and completly hose them cause they never threw a flip on a diving board at the pool or on a trampoline before.

I don't think anyone's arguing gymnastic/aerial talent, here. And if they are, I think they're missing the point. My point is that no matter how much training you have in aerials, when you have few jumps, you have little experience getting yourself out of...well, bad experiences.

Who do you expect to be able to deal w/ a fucked-up situation after an aerial? The guy w/ 200 jumps and no aerial training or the guy w/ less than 50 jumps and tons of aerial training?

And really, I'm not talking about stalling out on your back or anything related to aerials (though I really don't think their influence can be ignored). I'm talking about just plain shit gone wrong. Line twists, off-headings, hesitations that put you LOW. It's what happens after (possibly because of) the aerial.

So this could be the 200+ jumps jumper w/ no aerial training, the sub 50 jumper not doing aerials or the sub 50 jumper who is throwing aerials and focusing more on that than the skills that will really keep him/her alive.

Which jumper do you think will be better prepared to handle a fucked up situation?

Quote

I, like you, have been a gymnast when I was a kid, spend lots of my teenage summers at the local pool diving off the 10 meter platform just for fun. This is really the kind of experience that will help you throw a nice, "safe" and controlled aerial in BASE.

Again, not knocking your talent at all and wish I could borrow some, but the fact remains that there are no jumps out there that actually require an aerial. Aerial's are for show and pure enjoyment. They won't keep you alive or get you out of a bad situation, but they just might help to get you into one.

Just ask yourselves, when you're working on aerials, "Have I really covered everything else already?"

-C.

[JFK 0]

Hey Collin ;)
I definitely agree with you on jump numbers, however there might be something to think about on the aerial part.

Quote

... the fact remains that there are no jumps out there that actually require an aerial. Aerial's are for show and pure enjoyment. They won't keep you alive or get you out of a bad situation, but they just might help to get you into one.

Just ask yourselves, when you're working on aerials, "Have I really covered everything else already?"

Aerials won't help you, however body awereness can help you avoid/get yourself out of certain situations (noticing straight after exit that if you don't do something now, you'll end up FreeFlying the object).

It is body awereness that you work on when doing gymnastic, board diving, yoga, and so on...

Was thinking of applying this year but considering my limited experience (56j/1y) I'll keep on jumping other fun objects before getting towards the Malaysians giants :)

Jul.

JFK #1013
PM Me
No Adrenalin.... No Fun!
"Minds are like parachutes the

[lifewithoutanet 0]

Quote

Aerials won't help you, however body awereness can help you avoid/get yourself out of certain situations (noticing straight after exit that if you don't do something now, you'll end up FreeFlying the object).

No disagreement, there. Again, it's when you choose to apply that aerial training to BASE in actually throwing aerials that I think needs very careful evaluating.

-C.

PS Check your PMs in a bit.

[Lee846 0]

I got a flu and i'm bored, so may i join?
I totally agree with Coco and HELLvetic -- the gymnastic, diving board or trampoline experience will help you in BASE aerials... And we do have a good example here -- the guy who succesfully started aerials on his 20th jump.... but! He also has 1000+ skydives -- mostly FF team work and swooping. I think that's ok to start aerials at below the 100 jumps but at the same time you have to have some good canopy skills, you have to feel your base canopy. And if your gymnastic experience and low number of base are completed with the big, really big number of skydives -- then ok -- get to the exit and do it.
I have personnaly seen two acidents (a jumper with the 25+ jumps and another one with 70+ jumps both have broken feet) last week -- and it's happened only because they both didn't learn their canopies good enough for the particular objects.
I started base having the minimal number of skydives required for base. All my acidents were caused by the poor canopy skills. And only now than i've got more than 150 jumps on the same canopy i can say that i start to feel it (not "know" or "understand", but "feel").

Between two evils always pick theone never tried

[TomAiello 25]

I split this off the KL Merdeka Circuit thread.

-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[avenfoto 0]

Quote

but the fact remains that there are no jumps out there that actually require an aerial

$$

[fastpete 0]

Colin ! it was just a Meeker exit or 4 points with sidebody and star....

maybe we do the exit next time with points....

_____________________________________________
F......ck the Finns !!!
FastPete www.pete.fi email: [email protected]

[mfob 0]

As well am I fine with hearing peoples opinions, So here it is, my opinion, on my jump #30 I did my first stowed, every jump before that I made myself do an exercise every time Id jump. Id pretend to have a 180 left and correct it, Id think of all possible situations and correct them, no matter what jump. And for the "feeling out" my base canopy, shit yea, good idea. My point is although my jump numbers were low I trained off every jump. I still do. I feel highly confident in my own acquired skills and I learn more each time I jump. Like everybody says if you don’t like the feel of it don’t do it. You’re not a pussy if you walk away. Jump #31 was another stowed, I practiced throwing in the hotel and at home at least 1000 times. #32, I pulled off a perfect gainer with total altitude awareness, threw at exactly the right time, and had an awesome opening, even on that jump I made my self think of all possible situations, yet even still, I practiced something. I did a "rollover" earlier that day, and was way more nervous to do that than a gainer. That day was a good day, I had 5 firsts, first stowed, first 2 way, first 3 way, first rollover, and then first gainer. I had plenty of people tell me to be careful; I also had a very experienced jumper there with me. The point being is I do what I feel I can do, I jump for me and no one else, I didn’t do these things for someone else or to look "cool", I did them for myself. If anyone thinks it a problem I look at them and say I did it for me, thanks for your concern but I can handle it. Now if I was in Moab per say, I wouldn’t be doing nothing but hand held off any of the cliffs there, why? Because I wouldn’t feel comfortable doing anything else. I’m not crazy, I’m very educated, and I’m smart enough to know right from wrong. Yea, I’ve done most of my jumps from the same S, and I feel very comfortable off of it. But like the Moab cliffs, I haven’t jumped them yet so I won’t be going out there and busting out a gainer off a 300' cliff, I know better. Of course a S is nice because there isn’t much to hit, whereas a cliff there could be a strike or numerous other things. Jump numbers aside, I personally don’t think it matters. Look at me, and no I’m not trying to gloat. I do what I think I can and what feels right; no one can take my own responsibility and recognizance into their hands. It’s the comfort level I think matters. So with that being said I’m outta here, thanks for reading.

[TomAiello 25]

I'm going to agree with Collin here.

There are many different paths to take in BASE. I happen to think that one oriented toward safety is the "best". That judgement is, of course, up to each individual jumper, but patience issues aside, there is very little downside in concentrating on safety skills and fundamentals first.

It seems like these days, many new jumpers choose a skill progression that is focused on show. They want to be able to throw twisting quads when they have 15 jumps. Unfortunately, they've never practiced avoiding object strike.

I'd recommend a progression that focuses more on fundamentals (avoiding object strike, landing in tight areas with uneven footing, creating good object separation with a running exit, a strong launch, and an effective track, etc), well before practicing aerials.

If you practice safety skills before practicing showy aerials, you're more likely to survive to be able to show off your aerial skills.

-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[vandev 0]

Hey C....I will have to lean with the side of Coco,,, I to have grown up with Diving training and gymnastics.... If you watch a good diver...He...or She ..is always aware of where they are in the air..... call it 3 dimensional awarness. remember also that they are pulling off double or triple rotations in even a 12 foot high dive. if you watched some of the jumpers at bridge day you can always tell who has ground traing and who does not.. some take 300 feet just to make one rotation... Watch Damian or kenyon Solo....theres a great example of 3 d awareness.

and whats the difference if you do a aerial or flat and stable....if at pull time you have a hole differnet set of things to deal with....

just my 2 cents

good post though...


But after Toms post i will have to agree with him... as i do have considerble aerial experience...i would spend my first jumps focused solely one exit stabliity and tracking like my life depended on it... Like a Norgie....

In the end...the universe has a way of working itself out.... "Harold and Kumar go to White Castle"

[dmcoco84 4]

Great posts everyone. I'm freaking busy as hell with EMT class so I don't have time to reply to anything till Firday night or Saturday. HUGE ACLS test friday I'm making sure I pass.

Till then!

Coco

[Treejumps 0]

"I don't have time to reply to anything till Firday night or Saturday"

Man, what will everyone do with their spare time, and how will we get by until then.


Just kidding..... a little