Container Idea

[87SupraT 0]

It may sound confusing at first, so refer to the attached picture. Also picture is not drawn to scale.

Alright, trying to redeem myself from that last one, I thought of an idea to reduce if not get rid of line twists and 180's. The idea, is to stow the left riser and right riser line sets separately, to prevent any kind of twists.

First taking the left riser line set and running a figure 8 in an up and down relation; up towards our heads and down to our feet. It is placed on the left side of the container. The same is done on the right. Then you have a long flap that folds from the inside to the outside covering the lines and two locking flaps that slide into slits in the container. The lines then meet at the bottom of the tray.

Theoretically, you should have a very very slim chance of line twists or 180's. Let me know what yall think, I am curious to know on this one!

Dale

~Dale

[TomAiello 25]

Can you explain how/why such a setup would change the incidence of line twists and off heading openings?

Also, are the lines stowed on the canopy, as per standard gear configuration (hence, requiring some weird shaped tail pockets that would stretch way up the topskin of the center cell)? Or are they in the pack tray?

Putting the lines in the pack tray is an interesting idea (and potentially a good one--I know a couple people who've tried moving their tail pockets down there). But it would, in my opinion, have some potential for serious negative consequences in the event of an unstable deployment in which the jumper's body impacted or entangled the lines (because getting tangled in the bottom of your lines is a much better--and slower--situation than getting tangled in the top of them, which looks to be pretty quickly fatal).

-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[TomAiello 25]

Another thought:

Are you proposing extremely short risers on this rig? I see that you have the end of the riser at the top of the pack tray, and I'm not clear on how it got up there. Is it a very short riser, or is it somehow doubled, or folded back over to get back to the top of the tray?

And somewhat related to that: Do the lines come around the canopy at the top or the bottom of the pack tray?

Looking at it again, I'm guessing you've left the lines in the pack tray, used ultra short risers, and the "line pockets" are open both top and bottom? Is that right?

-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[JaapSuter 0]

Hey Dale,

keep those ideas coming man! For every ten ideas you give us, expect nine to be shot down. But who knows, maybe you'll invent the ultimate anti-offheading solution!

I've been wrapping my head around the idea in this post and I have yet to find a showstopper.

I don't think it'll completely avoid line-overs and offheadings, but I do believe it could lessen their chance. If you consider that some jumpers push the risers to the outside upon opening (or when doing roll-overs) this would effectively help doing the same. The inertia required to twist a canopy with its risers and lines separated is a lot bigger than with the lines all close together.

It is a big paradigm shift in that we no longer stow the lines in a pocket on the canopy, but now in the container. That means the canopy pulls the lines out of the container, instead of the container pulling the lines out of the canopy. I'm not sure yet what effect this has, and I expect such a system would require new ways to stage slider-up opening sequences.

Cheers,

Jaap

[JaapSuter 0]

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Can you explain how/why such a setup would change the incidence of line twists and off heading openings?

Because the inertia required to turn a canopy with the risers and lines seperated is bigger than with the lines and risers together.

How do you fix line-twist (aside from making sure you're flying away from the object)? By pulling the risers apart (and kicking your legs if you can).

This would effectively do this, all the way up to the top of the canopy (where they would still come together to where the slider is quartered I imagine).

I'm just doing some hand waving here, but I think it's an interesting idea.

[badenhop 0]

Hello,
That was a common pre tail pocket method,
and still in use for most short delay round deployment.
Avery

==================================

I've got all I need, Jesus and gravity. Dolly Parton

http://www.AveryBadenhop.com

[TomAiello 25]

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Can you explain how/why such a setup would change the incidence of line twists and off heading openings?

Because the inertia required to turn a canopy with the risers and lines seperated is bigger than with the lines and risers together.

In my experience, the vast majority of slider down line twists occur due to the motion of the jumpers body under the canopy, not due to the canopy twisting as it moves to line stretch. Virtually every time I see slider down line twists, they develop after the canopy is at least partially inflated, as the jumpers body is spun around (or because it was unstable and spinning to begin with) to match (and in this case swing well past) the canopy heading.

-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[87SupraT 0]

Quote

Another thought:

Are you proposing extremely short risers on this rig? I see that you have the end of the riser at the top of the pack tray, and I'm not clear on how it got up there. Is it a very short riser, or is it somehow doubled, or folded back over to get back to the top of the tray?

And somewhat related to that: Do the lines come around the canopy at the top or the bottom of the pack tray?

Looking at it again, I'm guessing you've left the lines in the pack tray, used ultra short risers, and the "line pockets" are open both top and bottom? Is that right?

The part where I marked the end of the risers was kind of mistaken. I am not sure how far down into the pack tray they run, but run them as far down on the left side, then figure 8 on the lines on top of it, making sure that the last loop is going down and coming out from under the flap at the bottom of the tray. I will put another picture up, of what it looks like with the flaps closed and where the canopy would lay.

Dale

~Dale

[Anvilbrother 0]

What will happen when one side of the "line pack trays" opens, or hesitates and does not play out line evenley? You might have a canopy that starts to inflate with one side of the susp. lines a foot or more shorter than the other side due to it being hung up. Do you think it will be better to close them with velcro, or tuck tabs to ensure a reliable even opening of both sides at the same time?

Postes r made from an iPad or iPhone. Spelling and gramhair mistakes guaranteed move along,

[tfelber 0]

In Bill's recent wall strike the canopy left the container 90 left. There was a white logo on the front RHS of the canopy that can clearly be seen all the way to opening. His body position looked good and stable.

Any ideas on that, Tom? This never really was discussed in the original thread.

[87SupraT 0]

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What will happen when one side of the "line pack trays" opens, or hesitates and does not play out line evenley? You might have a canopy that starts to inflate with one side of the susp. lines a foot or more shorter than the other side due to it being hung up. Do you think it will be better to close them with velcro, or tuck tabs to ensure a reliable even opening of both sides at the same time?

The locking tabs are meant to be tuck tabs. Hell you could use velcro if you want. Those two extending tabs on the bigger flap are what I think of "Tuck Tabs".



I can see body position affecting it with design still, but this could possibly fix a packed off heading, and if the PC pulls the canopy to an off heading.

Here is another picture of what it looks liek with the lines stowed and the canopy laying on top. The Red outline is the canopy .

Dale

~Dale

[pringles 0]

What is used to stage the deployment? Currently we use a primary stow. What with this system slows line dump, before canopy inflation?

Matt Davies

[TomAiello 25]

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Do you think it will be better to close them with velcro, or tuck tabs to ensure a reliable even opening of both sides at the same time?

Why do you need them to "close" at all? Would just a loose flap work? Or even just freestowing the lines in two groups, one on each side of the pack tray?

-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[TomAiello 25]

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In Bill's recent wall strike the canopy left the container 90 left. There was a white logo on the front RHS of the canopy that can clearly be seen all the way to opening. His body position looked good and stable.

Any ideas on that, Tom? This never really was discussed in the original thread.

Nope. I've really got no ideas, aside from "sometimes that shit happens."

-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[87SupraT 0]

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Do you think it will be better to close them with velcro, or tuck tabs to ensure a reliable even opening of both sides at the same time?

Why do you need them to "close" at all? Would just a loose flap work? Or even just freestowing the lines in two groups, one on each side of the pack tray?

A loose flap could work although I really don't know. The reason I would design it with a closing flap, is a cleaner tray(lines won't push out), and it will help to keep the lines nice, neat and in place.

As I don't own a BASE container, I am planning on trying to sew one together with existing parts as close as I can see from pictures, and using an old 7 cell cloud canopy I own. I could dummy weight it and test drop it from the cliffs at my local lake back home, or possibly a bridge around there. I really wish I could get my hands on Buster from Mythbusters though
Dale

~Dale

[Anvilbrother 0]

Yea I could see just placing the lines like he shows under the canopy. I was thinking he was going to have 2 seperate pockets seperate from the main pack tray that needed to be secured somehow.

Postes r made from an iPad or iPhone. Spelling and gramhair mistakes guaranteed move along,

[TomAiello 25]

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A weighted manakin would help the best, cause he will have an actual body position in the harness, instead of the bag and crap I used to use.

Apex has one that they've used for test drops. From talking to Todd a long time ago, I think unmanned test drops are pretty destructive to the gear.

-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[87SupraT 0]

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Apex has one that they've used for test drops. From talking to Todd a long time ago, I think unmanned test drops are pretty destructive to the gear.

Unless someone wants to do the test drops , my only other thought would be a Remote Controlled Manakin. So you could flare instead of it slamming and rolling into the ground. A lot of work, but I would like to test with the real size equipment instead of a scaled down version, I don't think it would be as accurate.

Dale

~Dale

[TomAiello 25]

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Unless someone wants to do the test drops

It should be very easy to just simulate the system by free stowing the lines up the sides fo the container. You could also improvise some kind of covers if you happened to have a spair container you could attach them to. And if you lived in Twin Falls, you could run out and try it pretty easily. And if there was a bored jumper from Canada in town, you might even be able to convince him to side float and film the deployments.

Hmmm. I wonder if we can find someone who meets that criteria.

-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[87SupraT 0]

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It should be very easy to just simulate the system by free stowing the lines up the sides fo the container. You could also improvise some kind of covers if you happened to have a spair container you could attach them to. And if you lived in Twin Falls, you could run out and try it pretty easily. And if there was a bored jumper from Canada in town, you might even be able to convince him to side float and film the deployments.


Hmmm. I wonder if we can find someone who meets that criteria.

If I had the extra money I would be more than glad to pick up a used BASE container and sew the flaps in and loan it to someone to try. I don't have the jumping experience to try it myself . Although sounds like you have someone in mind for filming already!

Dale

~Dale

[980 0]

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Unless someone wants to do the test drops

It should be very easy to just simulate the system by free stowing the lines up the sides fo the container. You could also improvise some kind of covers if you happened to have a spair container you could attach them to. And if you lived in Twin Falls, you could run out and try it pretty easily. And if there was a bored jumper from Canada in town, you might even be able to convince him to side float and film the deployments.

Hmmm. I wonder if we can find someone who meets that criteria.

wonder no more - I'll do it!

I just have one packjob to do tonight (even though I just squeezed two jumps in, a 2 way with Miles and then my first unpacked jump, a slider up McConkey (thanks for the pointers and help, Miles!), which also happened to be my first night span jump, and then I'm all over getting my bulletcam operational...




so Tom, are you volunteering to do the test jumps yourself, or am I going to be video-ing a dummy of sorts? ( I can't think how to avoid the pun there, sorry )

cya
sam

(less bored now, that McConkey scared me quite a lot, maybe black lines aren't the most reassuring option when you're looking down at your canopy hanging in the bridge's shadow and trying to see if all the lines look in the right place, damn black slider too )

[lifewithoutanet 0]

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From talking to Todd a long time ago, I think unmanned test drops are pretty destructive to the gear.

Enter bag o' dog food, stage right. It takes serious kibbles to test gear.

-C.

[verticalflyer 11]

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From talking to Todd a long time ago, I think unmanned test drops are pretty destructive to the gear.

Enter bag o' dog food, stage right. It takes serious kibbles to test gear.

-C.

I think you'll find if you refer to the original .jpg that orange man is already the test jumper for this mission. Unfortunately bag of dog food is on a tour giving seminars on safety with the kitten so unavailable.

Dont just talk about it, Do it!

[87SupraT 0]

I was thinking about the opening sequence with my idea. Normally the container/jumper is pulling the lines from the canopy. When this is happening, the risers are out and the lines are being drawn from the canopy. This gives the jumper a chance to drop a shoulder or go head down, which will give input to the canopy left shoulder down, pulling left riser, pulling the canopy to the left, off heading.

Theoretically, since the canopy is pulling the lines from the container, it doesn't have the force from the jumper pulling the lines out with the risers. Wouldn't the canopy begin inflating before the risers are pulled up and loading the jumper? If it begins to inflate prior to the jumpers body position effecting the risers, it should inflate onheading due to the separate line stows and the canopy should have already infalted enough for the jumpers body position to not matter much when the lines fully stretch and he/she is loaded with pull force of the canopy.

Let me know if I have thought to far into, or just totally off. Thanks.

Dale

~Dale

[DexterBase 0]

There's basically no restriction to the lines as theypay out of the tailpocket. The offheading that results from a dipped shoulder happend because one side is loaded first and that side of the canopy begins to inflate before the other side.

In the time the canopy is travelling to linestretch, the biggest factor that will affect heading would be pilot chute oscillation or wind.

If you dip a shoulder, it's not going to matter where the lines were stowed. Once you hit the end of the lines and load the risers unevenly, that's where the problems start.

Added: You do not want the canopy to begin inflating before the lines are completely deployed!!! Especially on a slider down jump. Actually, ever. that's bad, bad, bad!