PC material - in or out of the spring?

[alexey 6]

Some manufacturers recomend to place PC material of the spring-loaded PC (reserve) IN the spring, but most of manufacturers recomend to move it away from spring and locate in near.
What is pro and con for both methods?
Why not to use same "standart" variant.

Sorry for bad English

Lexa

[miller 0]

Not all springs are the same shape. Some have larger diameter bases and the spring tapers towards the top. Some are shaped like hour glasses. Some have larger tops and taper towards the bottom.

Mesh in or mesh out may/may not cause a particular spring to be more apt to have the coils lock. You should always follow the manufacturer's recommendations based on their spring configuration. I've personally opened up two different reserves for inspection and found the spring coils locked due to improper packing.

This is only a small and incomplete part of the discussion. As always, contact the manufacturer for specific information regarding certain configurations.

Mike

[linestretch 0]

Quote

I've personally opened up two different reserves for inspection and found the spring coils locked due to improper packing.

Really.....and how would you know that this was the problem? Once the pin is popped, and spring is released, there is really no way of telling where the hell the fabric/mesh was. Nothing chaps my ass more than other riggers being so quick to point out that others have screwed up.

my pics & stuff!

[Hooknswoop 19]

Quote

Really.....and how would you know that this was the problem? Once the pin is popped, and spring is released, there is really no way of telling where the hell the fabric/mesh was.

I'm guessing that he could tell because the PC didn't launch because the spring colis were locked and could therefore inspect how it was packed.

I have opened a Javelin and the PC spring didn't fully expand and had zero launch because the PC material was tightly rolled up.

Quote

Nothing chaps my ass more than other riggers being so quick to point out that others have screwed up.

Discussing mistakes helps others avoid making the same ones. I have learned a lot from reading about other's mistakes. I am fairly confident that I would have made mistakes (and have), but didn't (make as many) because I had read about them.

Derek

[miller 0]

Quote

Really.....and how would you know that this was the problem? Once the pin is popped, and spring is released, there is really no way of telling where the hell the fabric/mesh was. Nothing chaps my ass more than other riggers being so quick to point out that others have screwed up.
........................................


First: I stated that I opened the reserve and the spring coils were locked. I would think that from this statement it should be fairly obvious that the spring wasn't released.

Second: With the coils locked it's pretty clear tell where the pilot chute mesh was packed.

Third: I apologize for having "chapped your ass" but you would make it sound like I spearheaded an internet smear campaign directly against someone. I did not do this, and I'll be the first to tell you that I have made mistakes, too. I stated what I've seen so as to answer the original poster's question.

From your profile it looks like you're very experienced. As a rigger, imagine pulling a reserve ripcord at repack time and nothing really happens. I had this happen once (the second time the spring partially side fired, but still locked up and didn't really launch). In the first situtation the pilot chute didn't even open enough to open the flaps. That would be a shitty way to whistle in, especially if it was the result of an aad activation.

Sorry for having shared.

Mike

[livnbored 0]

Don't be sorry Mike.
I'm just freakin' a little in my head now thinking shit shit shit... I hope I don't ever do that. Everyone must LIVE!!
More things to keep me up at night.
(Actually I think about that everytime I close a rig, reserve and main)

[alexey 6]

I know about observance fo manual.
Qestion is - why some manufacturers recomend place PC material in coil?
What is pro for it?

Lexa

[riggerrob 558]

If the spring is cylindrical (i.e. Talon) - same diameter all the way down - then you must trap fabric and mesh between spring coils to prevent coil lock.

[linestretch 0]

First, I apologize for flying off the handle. It's one of biggest turn off's about rigging for me, i.e. other riggers basically bashing others work, quoting mistakes made by others. Mostly little things, like no bumpers on reserve links, or no nail polish on the barrels. I agree that the forum should be and is a place to learn from others mistakes, but to automatically "assume" that every little thing is a mistake by another rigger is what annoys me. Pretty much to the point where if I had an "iffy" issue to bring up, I probably wouldn't due to not wanting to hear others negative comments. We are not "all knowing" just because we received a ticket from the FAA. I think some of us need to be a little more humble.

As for the pilot chute spring and the fabric? Good question....I have no clue.

my pics & stuff!

[riggerrob 558]

linestretch,

You are not alone in being "miffed" at loud-mouthed young rigger-cops.
The worst rigger-cops get their shorts all in a knot about minor points like painting "tamper dots" on metal links. Most manufaturers do not even mention "tamper dots" in their manuals, but "tamper dots" are a "sacred" issue in some lofts.

The good news is that these overly-enthusiastic, young rigger-cops quickly burn themselves out after a few years of spreading fear and confusion.

The challenge is for you and I to keep our cool while they are being fools.

[linestretch 0]

thanx Rob.

my pics & stuff!

[miller 0]

I guess I got a little defensive in my reply, too. No hard feelings. I was having a bad day.

[alexey 6]

One of most profissional riggers in Russia make statement, that placing PC material in coil "increase"
spring strench and improve PC launch.
Because of that - he recomend that way for all local rigs.

It that staitment truth?

Sorry for bad English...

Lexa

[riggerrob 558]

Quote

One of most professional riggers in Russia make statement, that placing PC material in coil "increase"
spring strength and improve PC launch.
Because of that - he recommend that way for all local rigs.

It that statement truth?

Sorry for bad English...

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

I think he is doing the right thing for the wrong reason.
Fabric placement is only going to make a significant difference if a cylindrical spring locks.
In other words, your local rigger is saying "when in doubt..."
I am curious whether Russian-made pilotchute springs are conical or cylindrical?

[alexey 6]

Its conical, but a wicker, that "standart" american spring (like Mirage or Vector spring).
So, if I can ask - why most manufacturers (that use conical spring) recomend to place material out of spring?

Lexa

[billbooth 10]

On Vectors, we recommend keeping the reserve pilot chute fabric out of, but folded closely around the spring, simply because the pilot chute jumps further when packed this way. Putting fabric between the coils of a spring is like stepping on your shoelace, seems to me.

[riggermick 6]

Quote

linestretch,

You are not alone in being "miffed" at loud-mouthed young rigger-cops.
The worst rigger-cops get their shorts all in a knot about minor points like painting "tamper dots" on metal links. Most manufaturers do not even mention "tamper dots" in their manuals, but "tamper dots" are a "sacred" issue in some lofts.


Hey kids, WE ALL live in glass houses. After throwing a few rocks as "riglets" and having a few thrown back at us we quickly (in most) cases learn to think and calm down before we let loose with another volley. Every one of us is a potential target from the time we get the ticket until we die, after all. we're all human. That means WE ALL make mistakes at some time or another. No one is immune from this,get used to it and do your best to avoid it.
Do what you think is right, but don't trash anothers reputation until you have ALL the facts and supporting evidence. Think before you act.

Mick.


The good news is that these overly-enthusiastic, young rigger-cops quickly burn themselves out after a few years of spreading fear and confusion.


See what I'm say'n???

Be cool.
The challenge is for you and I to keep our cool while they are being fools.

[base698 1]

I recently had a moment like this, however I think it was justified. Someone put a massive hole in my freebag, so I was a touch angry about it.

[linestretch 0]

that's understandable. My biggest gripe is the little things like "the bridle was not folded to proper length", or "there was no nail polish on the barrels", or "the links were upside down", or "there were no bumpers on the reserve links"...bla bla bla. Some things are justified, but a lot are personal things that don't need to be marked up as "rigger mistakes", and then start bashing others work. I would hope that if I f___ed up, the person finding it would pull me aside and fill me in. And not announce it to the whole DZ as I've seen before. I've come across some iffy things and either got another rigger, or the rigger that packed it, and talk about it. I've learned a LOT from others little mistakes, or questionable issues. Granted none of what I found were life threatening, but good little bits of info to learn.

Prime example....on a Javelin with a cypres, has anyone here ever opened one up, and found the closing loop wrapped around the cutter (and still going through it)? It's very easy to let happen, and I learned to look for that now. I don't think it would have killed anyone, but it's simple enough that an experienced rigger had it happen to him, and I just happen to find it. We BOTH learned from it.

my pics & stuff!

[masterrig 1]

I think, we all learn from our mistakes as well as those of others. After all, we are human and we are going to make mistakes. I guess, it's fairly easy to 'jump' on someone for a mistake or error, but, it does no good and it doesn't really make the 'complainant' look 'good', either. It only causes 'bad' feelings. I agree with the statement made in this thread that the rigger hoped that if another rigger finds a 'mistake' that he made, that he be 'called to the side' and discuss it calmly and leave it at that. To me, that's being more professional and, we are professionals. I personally know a Master rigger in my area who, when he finds an error or mistake by another rigger, he just 'fires-off' a letter to the FAA. I asked him about this and he said he does that 'to keep the 'Feds' off his back. I think, we need to 'police' ourselves and making 'much ado about nothing' doesn't help. Let's do it in a professional manner. Spreading it around the DZ, is just wrong!

For what it's worth...

Chuck

[riggerrob 558]

I personally know a Master rigger in my area who, when he finds an error or mistake by another rigger, he just 'fires-off' a letter to the FAA. I asked him about this and he said he does that 'to keep the 'Feds' off his back. I think, we need to 'police' ourselves and making 'much ado about nothing' doesn't help. Let's do it in a professional manner. Spreading it around the DZ, is just wrong!

For what it's worth...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

SELF-POLICE
... because the feds do not want to be bothered.

Chuck

[masterrig 1]

True story, Rob! I've spoken with FAA people and they agree with you.
Chuck