Do the smaller BASE canopies have more consistent on heading openings than the larger ones?

[Teixido 0]

When you look at airfoil inflation smaller canopies may be faster. I think larger canopies may consume less altitude during opening. I was explained that the size of the lower surface of the canopy is important. Initially it is the lower surface that is slowing you down on deployment (once the canopy is flying the lift takes over). So a larger canopy equals a larger lower surface and more fabric to slow you down.

[SWOOOPDUDE 0]

When you look at airfoil inflation smaller canopies may be faster. I think larger canopies may consume less altitude during opening. I was explained that the size of the lower surface of the canopy is important. Initially it is the lower surface that is slowing you down on deployment (once the canopy is flying the lift takes over). So a larger canopy equals a larger lower surface and more fabric to slow you down.
_________________________________________________
If the wing loading was the same would the larger canopy still inflate higher? I ask only because we recently jumped an S(sub-200) and both were pca'd. My 277 opened a tad higher than my buddies 244.We just shrugged it off to packing.

[TomAiello 25]

Larger canopies are generally inflating over heavier loads (i.e. bigger jumpers). It takes more time/energy to slow a heavier load moving at the same speed as a (theoretical) smaller load. In my experience, this factor (weight of jumper) is the critical one in determining effective parachute height (i.e. not just when it's open, but when it has slowed you down enough to survive impact) at the margin (i.e. in ultra low deployment situations).

-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[DaveO 0]

I totally agree with you there Tom.

"When it comes to BASE, I'll never give advice, only my opinion"

[RayLosli 11]

This must be a humorous pole ?
So the Pole say's :
More people think that Smaller square footage of canopy.

Will open.. "On Heading More Often" With more consistency.
than the same canopy of Larger square footage ???

Am I reading this right ?
People actually think this ?

47 % - of people think it's actually a packing problem ?
.

[Skydawg 0]

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Larger canopies are generally inflating over heavier loads (i.e. bigger jumpers). It takes more time/energy to slow a heavier load moving at the same speed as a (theoretical) smaller load. In my experience, this factor (weight of jumper) is the critical one in determining effective parachute height (i.e. not just when it's open, but when it has slowed you down enough to survive impact) at the margin (i.e. in ultra low deployment situations).

Here's something Dwain once said, that's relevant.
http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=360708;search_string=open%20higher;#360708

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Say you and KS were jumping the same canopy, same packjob, same wingloading, (ie. your canopy would be more than twice the size of hers), etc etc and you deployed side by side. You will always open way lower than her because it will always take way more energy to decelerate you (M*V squared). Therefore KS will always be able to dump lower than you (providing other things remain constant). Being heavy means your p/c tosses must always be higher. You'll never win (and live) a low pull comp against someone lighter (if they are good) whereas you may win a lowest deployment comp. Same goes for really low freefalls. You require more energy (and therefore more height) to decelerate. This is all academic though and I know you already know this.

[460 0]

Dwain's points are right on the money. Playing devil's advocate, Dwain is not always 100% accurate though, so if there are open questions, they should be openly discussed.

The data that is so relevant in his analysis quoted is really somewhat inaccurate. What we need is 3-dimensional accelerometer data from exit all the way through opening to really quantify the distance and speed versus delay, because I do not believe the results quoted for the time-versus-speed-versus delay, especially as a function of pilot chute, canopy size, wingloading, and other relevant variables in this problem.

Looks like a death sandwich without the bread - Steve Deadman Morrell, BASE 174

[TomAiello 25]

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The data that is so relevant in his analysis quoted is really somewhat inaccurate. What we need is 3-dimensional accelerometer data from exit all the way through opening to really quantify the distance and speed versus delay, because I do not believe the results quoted for the time-versus-speed-versus delay, especially as a function of pilot chute, canopy size, wingloading, and other relevant variables in this problem.

Atair Aerodynamics has such a device. They even once offered to loan it out for canopy tests, if such tests could be done from an aircraft, at sufficient altitude and with reserve systems to protect their (expensive) gear. Unfortunately, I was unable to line up the necessary things, and couldn't pursue it further.

-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[mel-t 0]

yes...smaller base canopies are better on heading.
If jou can controle your body and your mind..
with that nice crosswind shoulders even in the expected airstream.

because the are smaller. the open faster,fly faster, react faster by your input.
to handle this, you have to be verry fast!
thaths wy I have a litlle bit bigger canopy with bottom vents now .
so I expect a faster opening with quiker control on input more flare and glide.
so more on heading for me.

Now I 'm happy, I can make my dreams come thrue.
In a couple of years when I think I 'm faster so that I 'm faster, I maybee buy an smaller one so I a have more consistent on heading openings.......yes I 'm beating time.
less time!
beating time

[RayLosli 11]

Yes...mel-t.....are you any relation to ...Faber ?
You are Fast- Fast- Fast....and when your dreams come true your Opening Headings will be consistent
and you will, beating time, less time !, beating time
That thing about " beating time" ?
If Time is Infinite ? Does that mean the Beatings never Quit ???
also :
You need one of those " Particle Accelerator Meters " (that thing Tom is talking about)
I saw one of those on Star Trek the other night.
I don't know how, Atair Aerodynamics got hold of it. I bet Capt.Picard is pissed off.
.
also:
I still see 9 wrong votes in the pole for " YES "
.
.

[Faber 0]

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Yes...mel-t.....are you any relation to ...Faber ?

were all brothers and sisters

I´ll give ya a hug as we meet(hopefuly next summer),then your allowed to belive im even more wrong

Stay safe
Stefan Faber

[DaveO 0]

Hey Ray,
For me personally, off headings seem to be more of an issue of what container I'm jumping. Might sound dumb but my log book doesn't lie. (Well, maybe on the delay I took) As of now my "Vision" gives me dead on openings most of the time. My other velcro rig and my pin rigs are not as consistant. Again, I'm talking on go and throws or delays of less than a second. I'm still kind of new to jumping pin rigs slider off so my packing and closing of pin rigs may not be up to par yet.
I would guess that the large pack tray and ease of use are the reasons that I get such great on heading preformance when I jump my "Vision".

Or...Dennis is a f#*king genius and designed the perfect rig.

"When it comes to BASE, I'll never give advice, only my opinion"

[RayLosli 11]

Those old Visions had a Tray that would open up big and clean.
The Tray-bottom was real shallow on the corners to.

I have some thoughts but no proof / and I may not even know what I am talking about.
Very little pin tension -verses- a little more pull force needed to open Velcro.
on low & slow delays. (if you think about it)....Velcro takes that extra fraction of
a second to let the Pilot Chute do its job of pulling the "Folded Pack Job out of Tray."
That fraction of a Second gives - extra snatch force or when it " lets-loose"(releases) - ripping it faster
through the closing flaps of the container.
The -Packed Canopy- is what opens the 4-flaps of your Container.
Not your Pilot-Chute. the "Pin or Shrivel-Flap"- is opened by your Pilot-Chute.
That 10 to 12 pounds of Fabric ripping, up and though the 4 flaps / opens the container.
I don't know, these are just some rambling crazy thoughts from a delusional moron...but you never know.

I just designed and built a 1 pin container system over the last couple months.
A couple months of work/three cuttings... but several years of thought before I even
started to pattern it out, cut and sew.

I seriously have some concerns about using very little pin tension on Very-Low air speed deployments.
I believe there should be a definite "SNAP" of energy when the Pin is pulled from the closing loop on opening.

If the container is OPEN and your Air-Speed is LOW...(think about it)....Closing sequence of CLOSING FLAPS ??

Think about Low - Slow air speed deployments.... Low Speed = low energy

Velcro OPENS /releases, both of the SIDE FLAPS at the SAME TIME..when pulled off.
OK.....now think about the "Closing Sequence of FLAPS" - on a - 1 or 2 Pin Rig.
WHAT - FLAP starts to release the energy of the Packed Parachute FIRST ???
Not an Even release of energy...Not Smooth... At LOW Air Speeds.

>>> WARNING <<< >>> WARNING <<<
(read the above thoughts at your own risk)
.............................................
I have never Owned a Pin BASE Rig but I jumped one about 4 years ago... one time.
so I may not know anything ..and maybe talking out my Ass.
.
.

[FIREFLYR 0]

Thought of a name for your pin rig yet?
~J

"One flew East,and one flew West..............one flew over the cuckoo's nest"
"There's absolutely no excuse for the way I'm about to act"

[Faber 0]

i use low pintention(and spectra loops) on many of my jumps,i really rare have offheaddings(more than 10 degrees),i jump a Gargoyle(only about 30 jumps on that one so far but none offheaddings) and a Vertex 1 containing 2dif vented BR canopyes.

i jump in the 0-4sec range slider off

Stay safe
Stefan Faber

[DaveO 0]

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Thought of a name for your pin rig yet?
~J

Thats a no brainer.

Velcro rig- "Soft Cock"
Pin rig --- "Hard Cock"

"When it comes to BASE, I'll never give advice, only my opinion"

[Skinflicka 0]

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because the are smaller. the open faster,fly faster, react faster by your input.
to handle this, you have to be verry fast!

Mel, you're describing parameters associated with heading sensitivity rather than heading accuracy.
Smaller, faster, more reactive will lead to faster offheading openings. Accuracy, or rather minimizing the median angular displacement from the desired opening heading is what you want. A big heavily damped system which opens the same way ragardless of other factors would be the ideal. Starting to sound like a big canopy? Maybe. Of course, heading correction ability is at least as important. If you do open off heading you need a reactive system to give you sufficient correction speed.

What a cunning web of intrigue we weave...

Holiday fun, one and all.

$kin.

Prizes to anyone who gets to read my posts before Mr Aiello's son, Tom deletes them.

[ZegeunerLeben 0]

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Or...Dennis is a f#*king genius and designed the perfect rig.

>>As far as I'm concerned, Dennis is a f#*cking genius the Vision is elegant in it's simplicity, and I love how easy it to close without distorting your pack job and the consistent pull force required to open it. Pin rigs scare me but what the hell do I know anyway

[FIREFLYR 0]

Pin rigs scare me too!...
My Soft Cock ROCKS!
~J

"One flew East,and one flew West..............one flew over the cuckoo's nest"
"There's absolutely no excuse for the way I'm about to act"

[TomAiello 25]

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My Soft Cock ROCKS!

So wrong, in so many ways...

-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[ZegeunerLeben 0]

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My Soft Cock ROCKS!

>>Seriously, I was impressed with it when I watched you close it up...
I wonder how I can trick Ray into making me one?

[FIREFLYR 0]

Quote

Quote

My Soft Cock ROCKS!

>>Seriously, I was impressed with it when I watched you close it up...
I wonder how I can trick Ray into making me one?

Tom will put in a good word eh?
Chicks dig my soft cock(in so many ways)
~J

"One flew East,and one flew West..............one flew over the cuckoo's nest"
"There's absolutely no excuse for the way I'm about to act"

[DexterBase 0]

Ray is focusing his rigging efforts on his new 1 pin rig. After he's got it just the way he likes it, you may be able to talk him into building one. I have one and it's every bit as nice as the Vision it's sitting next to (IMHO).

I think he should call it the Sabot

[hookitt 0]

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think he should call it the Sabot

So wrong, in so many ways...

My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

[RayLosli 11]

Dexter:
Ray is focusing his rigging efforts on his new 1 pin rig.
..............................

"Rigging Efforts"
Dude what are you talking about I have never been trained as a Rigger.

The ol Lady is doing a shift in the Lab at the hospital tonight so I am doing a
fourth cutting of the 1 pin rig tonight and putting most of the pattern from paper
to plastic. with CCR cranked to max on the pc.
The fucking thing actually looks like nice Rig. Nice flat and trim wedge.
the Riser Covers turned out "Exceptionally well".- trim & smooth / tracking worthy.

I did a lot of work to work out the pin tension on the 1 pin.
I originally started to cut a 2 pin but said "fuck it" and threw it in the trash can...( 1- pin / less is more.)
A - 2 pin - would have been much easier on my brain to build.
The 1 pin was a bitch to figure out how to contain 285 sq. ft. canopy and (make it look good.) +
with a consistent (acceptable) pin tension when you got it strapped to your back and moving around.

I never owned a pin BASE rig before so I had Spence come over the other night and see it all packed
up. He put it on and checked it out. he said ..."It fucking rocks. make me one."
I got the third cutting packed right now (ready to jump) with a 285 sq. ft. v-tec and I got the
pin tension down to 4 to 5 pound pull / in the flat and stable position.
If you are.... Stalled-out, on your Back, Head-Down and Kicking & Screaming, with the Bridal going
over your Shoulder after you pitch the pilot-chute.... (good luck)... you Will need it.
.