skydance1954

Daymn, Lippy, you've got me in stiches with that one! "couldn't even finish my beer" hahahahahahahaha! I love it. I trust that was a sunset load and your last jump of the day. Mike Ashley D-18460 Canadian A-666

I'd have to go with the C-9. Safe. Dependable. But, MAN, even when I was 140lbs those things would pound you in. And of course, turning it simply changed your view. You got good at accuracy in those days because you had to. The peas were about the most comfortable place to land. Anywhere else would hurt, and a standup was worthy of bragging rights. Mike Ashley D-18460 Canadian A-666

A Canadian copy of the Jerry Bird "teardrop" rigs, circa 1975. Damn thing had velcro holding the reserve closed. Naturally it eventually opened during a funnel when someone brushed up against it. Damn near killed me and the poor girl who fell through the reserve. That was my last dive on a belly mount. Mike Ashley D-18460 Canadian A-666

Well, my kids never had a chance. They both grew up ad DZ rats and were both packing by 13. I'd been jumping for 8 years when Jared came along, and we still went out to the DZ every weekend anyway. When the bills started coming in due to the higher expense of the kids, I became an instructor and a rigger for the extra money. Which, of course then required me to be at the DZ every weekend to work and most important, to stay current. I always impressed on both the kids that they don't have to jump, and I'd rather they not. Not because I'm afraid of them getting hurt (and yes, I am), but because jumping is my thing, and I would prefer that they found their own thing to do. As my daughter put it, though, it was normal for them to turn 18 and then go jump out of a plane. It's just what people do. Of course they both love it and are jumping every weekend now. As an interesting insight as to what it's like to be a DZ rat, my daughter confessed that she was in grade 6 before she realized that not everyone's parents jump out of airplanes. That was quite the epiphany for her. The good news/bad news is that they've had first hand education that this sport can kill you, and so they are both conservative jumpers for their age, have gone into this with eyes wide open, and take care of their own gear. Just like we did in the old days. So they are as prepared as myself and thier instructors can make them. And now, I get to jump with my kids all summer long. How incredibly cool is that? So, no, I don't mind family jumping, as long as said family member can handle being in a really bad situation and dealing with it with a cool head. I just try to make sure that I don't screw up too badly. The Reaper lurks....... Mike Ashley D-18460 Canadian A-666

Of course you can choose whatever direction you want to go. Never mind the peer pressure. Everyone wants more playmates in their own favorite activity, so yeah, some people will try to convince newbies to play with them. Nod and smile, commit to nothing, and do what feels right for you. Follow your own bliss, not what someone tells you it should be. The harder they push, the less you should listen. (Unless they're giving you tips on staying safe.) I've got my thing, I enjoy it a lot, and yeah, I want more people to share it with, but at the end of the day, around the campfire, with a beer in my hand, I'm surrounded by skydivers. Brothers and sisters of the air, and I don't give a rats @$$ what discipline they follow. We're all there to enjoy something the rest of the world can't even begin to understand. And we're all sharing it together. Mike Ashley D-18460 Canadian A-666

After hundreds of pies given and recieved at several DZ's in both Canada and the US, I've found that these rules generally apply no matter what DZ you go to: Pies are given for 100, and every 1,000 thereafter. Most places use whipped cream on paper plates, sometimes augmented with real pies. Sometimes it's just one real pie. In rare cases, the "pieing" is done with a combination of nasty ingredients (dog food, honey, flour, mustard, whatever) - personally I don't like this, it's supposed to be an acknowledgement of a milestone and a reminder not to get too full of oneself, not a hazing. The first pie is the most important. If you land that one, the the rest can come in at leisure. It should be a real pie, FULLY thawed. If you bulls-eye that one, then the lights go out long enough for everyone else to get their digs in. For hard cases, though, one is frequently enough, and easiest to land since only one person needs to get into position to strike. All you need is ONE videographer quietly "filming DZ stuff" to make sure it's recorded for the year end video. And since he is a hard case, he probably thinks he's immune. There are NEVER any time limits on a deserved pie. DO NOT EVER hit someone with a pie while in his or her gear, or in the packing area. Definitely not cool. Cream pies make the most satisfying mess, and look great on impact on video. Our DZO went his entire carreer and over 10,000 jumps before someone figured out that if he was set up and pied by a bunch of ladies, he'd be helpless. Since he's a gentleman, he would never strike a lady. But if there was ONE guy in the group, he would have beat the tar out of him. SOooooooo - that's what happened. All the guys did was video the event. It was great - a moment in history.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I suppose that works. Most of the rest of the time, "vertical separation" is a fool's errand. I tend to agree. Vertical separation is not separation. Should the top guy have a problem, then when he gets down to the low man, then both are going to have a problem. The fact that someone briefly sees a canopy does not mean that said canopy is truly open and flying. Sorry, Phree, but we're not going to agree on this one. Mike Ashley D-18460 Canadian A-666

No argument here. That's a main reason why I go to the door and start checking the situation out at 10 grand. (I DO so love those plexiglass doors in the otters.) It also helps a lot to talk to the pilots before you leave the ground, and discuss jump run directions, wind speeds, etc. Hey, Rob, long time no see, howya doing? Mike Ashley D-18460 Canadian A-666

Last summer I exited right as the light turned green, my buddy and I took less than 5 second in the door to set up our piece, neither of us made it back to the DZ but all the freeflyers had no issue landing on the DZ. After the half mile walk back in one of them approached me and gave me a lecture about how next time i'm going to take that long in the door I need to tell the pilot to turn on the light sooner so we don't fuck them again. Yeah, usually some tough guy, and he picks on the low timers to make himself more important. Good thing he didn't say that to me after a half mile walk. I guess the new reality is that whoever is first in the door, regardless of skills or situational awareness of what's going on outside, is going to be the "bad guys" to the people in the back. The only way to combat this is through DZ culture and get as many people to understand that the person in the door has a responsibility to the safety of the entire aircraft, and they have data that no one else does. However, having said that - if someone has a history of bad spots, then perhaps remedial training, or passing the job to someone else might be in order. Mike Ashley D-18460 Canadian A-666

Standard procedure for a videoman is for him to go to the center and pull high, while everyone else tracks away and pulls lower. The logic for this is that the formation guys can't know where the videoman is, because they're concentrating on each other, and don't really know where the videoman is. And they may not have time to figure it out at breakoff time. So, why not go to the center and pull early, and eliminate all that confusion of having someone high and tracking with everyone else? The reason we didn't go that route was because this was a team training dive, and I was in the center at breakoff and pull time. Icon didn't have that option. Two vidiots in the center and pulling together would probably result in a real bad day. Mike Ashley D-18460 Canadian A-666

As the prime vidiot on this load, I have to take some of the responsibiliity for the near incident. The plan we utilized on the first dive was one that I've used with other video lurkers in the past and it's worked very well. The factor that I didn't take into consideration was the difference in experience levels between the other lurkers that we'd had along for the ride, and Icon. He'd not done something like this before and he was not aware of the speeds that these particular team members, especially skyjunkie, would be reaching during their tracking. On the other hand, I was fully aware of both factors, but didn't suggest he leave earlier than team breakoff altitude. I did mention that he should leave "just ahead" of the team's breakoff, but didn't stress it. With my experience, I should have seen the possibility and adjusted the dive accordingly. As mentioned repeatedly, we did make the adjustments on the second dive and all was well. So, to make this clear, I had the center, the team was to break between 4 and 4.5, and Icon left at 5 on the second dive. On both dives he was positioned at 90 degrees to my left, so that he could have the low Fall sun at his back. I knew where he was, but of course the team did not. So good lessons for all, and Icon is to be commended for sharing this with the world so that others can also learn from it. Mike Ashley D-18460 Canadian A-666

Of course it's fun. All skydives are fun. The nice thing about static line (at least as I saw it back when I started, way too long ago) was that I did the jump all by myself, good or bad, and that each time I did something right and moved on to the next level, it was with a real feeling of acomplishment. Go for it and welcome to the brotherhood! Tell us all about it when you come back! -Mike Mike Ashley D-18460 Canadian A-666

Quite so, it does depend on the definition. To narrow that - "wuffos" idea, the people that ask the question usually(but not always) do not have an activity of their own. I do kinda get some of the feeling across to those folks I've met over the years that have their own risky activity that they do on weekends. White water rafters, rock climbers (free and others), race car drivers, some bikers, hang glider pilots, and a few others. But the hard core wuffo - no. If I can put it into terms that they can understand, usually in the context of their own sport, it works. But those people also are adrenaline junkies in their own right, so in a way, we understand each other. It's still like trying to explain an orgasm to a 5-year-old, though....... Mike Ashley D-18460 Canadian A-666

Glad you're making an informed decision. Now for the good part - you're going to learn why the birds sing - and why we all feel like Superman when we're in the sky. And on that note - shortly after seeing the new movie - I was on a jump with my team, doing video for them, and it just so happened that with the background clouds, the angle of the sun, the team in front of me, and the manover that I had to do to get the sun at my back immediately after exit, I had what most would call a "Superman moment". I was riding the hill "upstream" past the team and it all came together just perfect. I was flying just like Superman, and it was awesome. I was grinning like a cheshire cat for the rest of the dive. Waiver? Who cares about a stupid waiver? We get to fly! And yeah, it's worth it. Mike Ashley D-18460 Canadian A-666

Quite so. This thread reminds me of a guy back in the day who came out to make his first jump at an unnamed DZ in Canada. We were still using T-10s back then. (yeah, it was a very long time ago) He shows up in his Mercedes with his 18 year old trophy girl friend (he's in his mid-40s) who's dressed in an evening gown and heels while going to a farm that happens to have a runway. Anyway, this guy was trouble from the start, he knew everything about everything, and kept interrupting the instructor during class. On the actual jump, he fell out like a sack of potatoes, and did not follow instructions, even though his radio worked fine. He landed on a fence and broke his back. The good news is that he was not paralyzed. The bad news was that he immediately sued. Even though he signed the waiver, he kept claiming that "no one told him this was dangerous." He had deep pockets and he wanted someone to pay for his embarassment. Since this was in Canada, medical bills were not an issue. The waiver held up in court, but he kept appealing the issue, hoping in his own words, to bankrupt the DZ, if nothing else. Unfortunately for him, he eventually got to a court that threw it out, and forbid any further appeals. And still, after all this, he insisted that he was the victim, in spite of the fact that the judge chastized him for not understanding that skydiving is by nature, dangerous. It still cost the DZ over $10,000 to defend itself, though. Mike Ashley D-18460 Canadian A-666

Problem is here, all that has been written is very true. Those of us who skydive will read this thread, nod and smile. The wuffos that we explain this to will simply have their eyes glaze over and still not understand. In all my years, I've not once been able to get through to a wuffo the reason why. Either you're a skydiver or you're not. Try to explain the best way you can, but recognize at some point, you're going to have to give up. The best I've been able to get is "well, I'll have to take your word for it." Mike Ashley D-18460 Canadian A-666

A concept that seems to have gone by the wayside here. All the fine talk about the contract, and rights and so on are all fine. But we seem to have forgotten the original reason for the waiver, and it's not to weed out the sue happy idiots, although that is the end result - but it's to remind people that they must take personal responsibility for their actions when performing non-mandatory activities. It's sad that intelligent people (ie the lawyers and the lawyers children/spouses, etc. in this case) read these things and realize at some level that they must now accept any consequences of thier actions without being able to "blame" (in a legal sense) someone else for anything that may go wrong. Yes, they made an informed descision. Yes, they did the right thing for them. And we're better off for it. But DAMN! Why is it that they cannot accept that sometimes the only person to answer to is yourself? I've found over the years that the vast majority of skydivers have this attitude in all facets of their lives. And that attitude means that they stand up for themselves when right, and accept consequences when wrong, and then take that experience forward so that they become better people. If you accept responsibility, your life is much richer than if you're always pointing the finger elsewhere when you have shortcomings. Sorry, end of rant. Mike Ashley D-18460 Canadian A-666

Hi, Jeff. welcome to the brotherhood. My recomendation on your patch issue is to put them on your gearbag. If you're like me, you'll collect a LOT of patches during your jumping carreer. After several years, some of them will become collector's items of a sort. ie - they'll be no longer sold. Since you'll have to change jumpsuits every few years because they wear out, or you join a team, or you may change disciplines and require a new one, you'll evenutally lose all those patches. But it's a good bet you'll have your gear bag for many years and many iterations of jumpsuits and containers. Mike Ashley D-18460 Canadian A-666

Just to be contrary (because I'm a stinker), I had a mal on my Unit which I flat packed 21 years ago. I would like to point out, however, that a mistake was made during packing because I was in a hurry. Point being, that yeah, a flat pack can be screwed up, just like any other pack job. Mike Ashley D-18460 Canadian A-666

I actually feel sorry for you because you've missed out on one of the most important aspects of skydiving: being part of a brotherhood of the sky where we all help each other. Not for money, not for ego gratification, or for anything else. Simply because we want more playmates, and we're willing to help the newbies along. Your attitude indicates that unless the person providing the training is doing this professionally, then they are not qualified to perform the training. Well, that's just wrong, straight up. There are plenty of very qualified professionals out there doing it for bread on the table. This is good, and there is no reason to stop that. But there are also plenty of very qualified individuals that can and do provide equal or better training for free. This applys to packing mains, basic gear care and feeding, coaching various freefall and canopy disciplines and providing safety seminars. Just because these individuals do not charge fees does not make them any less qualified. Frequently, the reason that they do not do so is because back when they were newbies, someone took them under their wing and helped them. Now they want to give something back to the sport. It's a tradition that has stood this sport very well for a long time. Mike Ashley D-18460 Canadian A-666

Wuffo = a person that does not skydive. From "Wuffo do you jump out of that airplane?" Mike Ashley D-18460 Canadian A-666

Drug use while skydiving is not acceptable under any conditions. If the DZO is aware of the issue, then he's risking not only his livelihood, but his freedom. If a serious or fatal accident occurs, and a staff member is involved, it is very likely that the police will request said staff member submit to a drug/alcohol test. If he/she tests positive, then the DZO and the staff member are probably looking at prison time. The bereved, the media and the courts are not going to be merciful. It would be much worse than a DUI. You, on the other hand, will lose your playground, and have to find another. It is also possible that if one staff member tests positive, then the police may require all of the DZ staff to be tested. Even if they are not involved in the accident that brought them out there, they may also find themselves in a very bad situation. Sounds like a pretty high risk situation to me. So - as mentioned before, talk to the DZO, the S&TA and if necessary the local USPA rep. If none of these work, then perhaps you might consider changing DZ's. As to the comments about "lots of drug use during operating hours" being rampant, or even common. I'm afraid that my experience shows that not to be true. I've seen lots of "alternative behavior" in my 32 years in the sport, but the vast majority of it was after hours. The crowds I hung with back in the day knew better than to mix the two. When we did see someone doing that, we made sure that he (somehow it was always a he) was not welcome on our dives when they were like that. I've also grounded more than one person I caught doing it over the years by bringing it up either to the manifest or the DZO, who, in turn, simply didn't let them near the plane until the next day. And that was the preferred method of dealing with it at the time. But that was then.... Mike Ashley D-18460 Canadian A-666

I'd also like to put in my 2 cents. A lot of valid points are being made on both sides of the argument. So I'll put in my little true jump story as a cautionary tale. Back in August of 1985, I was dispatching students from a Cessna 185, and I thought it would be neat to be able to listen to music after the last one left and I would be doing my own solo hop-n-pop. Now I didn't have traffic issues because I was leaving on a separate pass then the last student. I was landing in a different area than the students, and I didn't have any performance issues to do other than open and land my Unit. Since iPods didn't exist, I used the latest and greatest technology, my Sony Walkman (with a cassette inside) and cued it up to the first song, which was "Rebel Yell" by Billy Idol. Hey, it was 1985, give me a break...... So, the last student leaves, I get my go around, one foot on the step, waiting for the spot to come by, I'm at 3,000 feet, and I hit the PLAY button on the Walkman and leave the plane. Now, it's important to remember that this is a Cassette tape we're talking about, so there are some few seconds of silence before the music kicks in. I do my 3 - 5 seconds, pull, get a canopy, and discover that my dumb ass didn't pack it right, and I had no steering capability on it outside of the back risers. My attempts to clear the steering lines from the other lines wrapped around them simply put the canopy into a stall that I couldn't get out of. All right, time to chop. Damn. Yeah, I remember how to do this. Look at handles...... Grasp handles....... Pull Right....... And just as I do, the song kicks in. Holy SH*T!!! I couldn't have timed it better if I'd done it on purpose. So there I was accelerating back into freefall with the first few chords of the song roaring in my ears. WHAT A RUSH! But not really the good kind. In the moment, I'd of course completely forgotten about the Walkman and was dealing with the situation. After a moment's surprise, I pulled left and got a beautiful, round SAC over my head and all was well. Except that Billy was still playing. It really wasn't the game plan I'd had in mind. That's the story of my last reserve ride to date. My kids have had this evil plan to some day put a fan in my face when I'm asleep and start that tune just to see what I will do. Seems that whenever I'm at a party and that tune comes on, I still jump. And sometimes my daughter puts it on so she can show her friends my reaction. I'm permanently damaged by the experience. I can't hear that tune without being instantly transported back to that moment. So, if you want to listen to music in the air, do so, but remember that you might have to do stuff under less than ideal circumstances with this slight distraction in your ears. Mike Ashley D-18460 Canadian A-666

Our 4-way team is the same. I'm camera, so I'm first out and I check the spot. One of the other team members keeps an eye on the lights in case it turns green while I'm checking outside. However, your comment about the DZ culture is quite correct. There are elements at some places that say "When the light turns green, you leave, period. No spotting, no checking, you leave." Since new jumpers really are not taught how to spot, they blindly obey. How can they not? They've never known any other environment. Old salts, however, stick to their original training and check for planes, clouds and where they actually are over the ground. Most times I call it early, but sometimes I'll wait because we're still 2 miles from the DZ. This makes the people in the back pretty nervous, and sometimes downright grumpy, but I'm usually right. Not always, mind you, I'm human, too. The sad thing is, when I am right, I've yet to have anyone in the back come up to me and say thanks. We suffer from the same issues that most teams do - folks see us in our little world, focused on the job at hand and mistake it for arrogance or unfriendliness. We don't interact much during the day, but we do take pains to talk to people at the end of the day.

***The instances I was thinking of was taking full Otter loads to the "hollywod" spot for the first group (which HAD to be the 4-way team even though there were other RW groups with more people in the plane). A perfect spot for a large turbine, as I'm sure you know, isn't the perfect spot for the first group. If there are a large number of smaller groups the first group and the last group may have to work a bit to make it back. Absolutely correct, Dave. Which is why our particular team attempts as often as possible to spot for the whole plane, not the team. I also learned to spot with wind drift indicators and winds aloft, and we had to spot for rounds. Spotting for Stillettos and Crossfires is a hell of a lot easier than PCs and Paps. Most of the time, we're climbing out on red so that the small freefly groups in the back will be "in the zone" and not out in BFE. However, our efforts are largely ignored. ***You can't deny that in the 6 years that you state you've been in the sport you haven't seen the bad like I've talked about. Actually, his comment about being in the sport for 6 years is not exactly accurate. Yes, he has been actively jumping for 6 years, packed since he was 13 years old, but he was raised on the DZ. And yeah, he HAS seen the bad you've mentioned. As have I. ***I also thought about Collegates a few years ago where I competed in Style for a laugh. There were jumpers wigging out about having to jump a 182. Some were saying that the 182 wasn't a proper AC to use in competition, even for a round of style. ***Honestly, I got a private chuckle having to show the jumpers how to sit in the 182 safely and comfortably, but I was more then happy to help them learn about the 182. I get the same chuckle. However, you've got to give these kids a little slack. They probably didn't start in a Cessna, and until that meet, maybe they'd never jumped one at all. It's one thing to go from a 180 or a 182 to an Otter or a Skyvan. Quite another to to the other way around. It's all in how you're raised. Think of how the older pilots in WW2 felt when they got their hands on a Mustang or an ME109 when they started out at 18 years old in a Fokker DIII or a Spad? They probably told all kinds of tales to the younger pilots, who in turn would look at them as if they grew a third eye. But the reality was the rules of the game hadn't changed. Everything was simply faster. As for their opinion of a Cessna not being a proper jumpship for style, well just tell them they're in a time warp, and it's 1972 again. Maybe you can even find an old Stylemaster with 1 1/2 shots, a Phantom 24 and a PC for them to jump. Then see how they stumble around the plane. ***So it doesn't matter if you can barely land your canopy if you're a top level RW or FF competitor. Or that you can't complete an 8-way even though you're a top name swooper? Yes, it does matter if you can't properly land your canopy, because that's a safety issue. Everyone should be a competent, safe pilot for their choice of equipment. However, there is no requirement to do 8-way at all. If swooping is your thing, then, yeah, it does not matter if you can't do an 8-way, or a 4-way or freefly, or anything else. This sport is so diverse now, that everyone can pick their bliss and run with it. Personally, I like RW. Does that make me a poor skydiver because I can't turn a style set in under 8 seconds? Or that I can't fly on my head to save my soul? I think not. Someone who's a kick-ass head-down champion, but can't turn a 4-point random 4-way still deserves respect. And vice versa. Back in the day when all there was, was style, accuracy and RW, the style freaks couldn't do RW, and the "fun jumpers" couldn't turn style. But each was good at what they did. Each focused on the discipline that they thought was the most fun for them. Things haven't changed all that much. There's just more flavors to choose from. The reality is that unless you've got really, really deep pockets, and lots of time, most people cannot afford to even get "really good" at multiple disciplines. Those that do, usually work each one, one at a time. For a long time. And either they work at the DZ, have some direct link to the owners (Dad, Mom, brother, business partner, whatever), or they are wealthy. The rest of us have to get by with real jobs, etc. and do what we can afford to do. Really, I don't care what discipline you choose to chase. I just want you to come out and skydive, have fun, and join me around the bonfire in the evening and tell stories about your day. Student, competitor, fun jumper, professional skydiver, whatever. In the end, that's what it's all about, sharing the good vibes from what we do. -M Mike Ashley D-18460 Canadian A-666