lonedfx

Thank you for giving the rest of us context... i was wondering what the hell all the noise was about... If that's true then that's just sad.

They dont' have integrated radio coms, and they don't have HUDs.

Two words: internet forum.

Really... ? i mean, come on...

Beautiful and inspiring. Congratulations to the entire team for this. We only get to see the stunning end result, the videos... the adventure behind the images is something someone needs to write a book about someday. Seriously.

Now that you mention it ...

Others have replied already, I would just add this: what are the chances that the drag force is going to be enough to finish unstowing the lines if it was not enough to pull the pin? Very very low, i'd think. Even if it did, chances are it wouldn't be after the dbag has had time to have a little party dancing around like a raver high on LSD. At best you'd get mad twists, enormous potential for body/lines entanglement, less altitude for EP, and a huge mess for your reserve PC to clear. I'd humbly submit that this is a very bad idea (or a really good one if what you're trying to do is to make things much much worse). Seems to me the OP did exactly what he should have (except for not cocking the PC ...)

Please tell me there is a video of this somewhere :)

+1

No problem, I realize most of it is a bit on the fun & stunt side and doesn't really have its place within a standard progression. On the other hand, though most people realize they cannot backfly into a slot, the skills needed for some of those dives isn't always apparent, so personally, I make a point to talk about them in my briefings and mention a few well known horror stories. I don't know that it does anything though... I guess flybys and flying with the plane are a bit like swooping is. You just tell students not to do it. Until recently, it was hard to find someone who would take on the responsibility to actively teach you how to swoop, and many people learned, and still do learn more or less alone, as they feel ready, gleaning info here and there... the results have not always been so good. But yes, that's not what your pdf is about :) Glad that you'll be adding something about prolonged dives. I was the guy without the necessary skills the first time I joined one of these... I knew enough to leave the jump before I became really dangerous, but that was definitely a lesson in knowing my own skills, or lack thereof.

Nicely done, I would encourage every student to read this list and organize his progression on something along those lines, it's also a pretty good way for someone to self-evaluate. One thing though, and I'm not sure where exactly it would fit into your structured progression, but I didn't see anything about abilities to fly at deep angles for prolonged amounts of time, especially being able to do so relative to other wingsuits. Though that's not the kind of dives we usually think about when we think of wingsuits, these are flown all the time and they're great fun, but they can be especially dangerous when one who doesn't have the skills joins in. Also, and though I'm not one to encourage it, pilots often offer to fly close to wingsuiters, and that often requires the wingsuit to be "near his VNE", which can result in overreactive unstable flight with a plane in proximity. Ugh. I think an item or two in the document somwhere about stable high speed flying and very steep flight angles (think almost head down) would make it clear that those also are skills, and that even when one has freefly experience, doing these with a wingsuit is going to bring a whole new dimension to it. Similarly, the temptation to flyby canopies is great for many wingsuiters, who don't really know if they have the skills the first time they'll try it. And they will, no matter how much we try to discourage them. And why shouldn't they, they see some of us do it... I'm of the opinion that it's better to recognize that people will do it, and give them an opportunity to realize that they're not ready yet, no matter how much tandem pilots ask them for it. And while I'm at it, the same thing is true of rodeos, not even mentionning the skydiving experience required of the passenger (i don't think that physical contact with the hardware is benign), the pilot gets to fly like he's driving a truck on the ice, always correcting one way or another, it's not that hard, but it sometimes requires some pretty creative flying. Bring a second rodeo in the jump, one or more videomen, and you have a whole can of worms to deal with at break time. Which brings me to the ability to organize flocking, and the subtleties that arise when organizing sizable formations. I suspect it's a skill that can only be gleaned from direct experience with other load organizers and takes a lot of time, and here again, realizing that you don't have the skill or knowledge to make it safe for everybody else in the dive could only be a good thing. You mention navigation, but in addition to being able to maintain headings, one of the most useful skill I find that I can teach my students on this subject is the ability to correct for non-straight jump runs (ie, the pilot turned during the last part of the jump run). When flying standard U patterns, and if the wingsuiter has only taken a ground reference at the door, there is a very high risk of flying back toward open canopies. This is not a flying skill, but a very important saftey one: awareness of the airspace. This may be covered under the "Demonstrate proper communication with the pilot" item, but not that many pilots realize this is actually a problem for us, so I try to get students to be very aware of what's going on while other people jump out before they do. Still on the topic of navigation, cloudsurfing feels so good that we're often tempted to go chase a cloud that's not quite within our reentry cone. The ability to know the limits of such detours is important, as off-zone landings are never garanteed to be safe. One last thing, the ability to perform stable exits at "zero speed", such as from an ultralight or a baloon. Not talking about base jumping here, but so many of us also have this activity in mind that it could only help to have the skill recognized in there. I realize that the document can never be complete, there's just too many fun things one can do with a wingsuit, but as it is, it seems a little biased toward progressing in flock flying and aerobatics. That's probably the biggest part of wingsuiting in the skydiving environment today, but it's not the whole story. Some of the other fun things also require specific skills that can be trained for. In any case, good stuff, thanks for sharing it. Francis.

I explained why not :) Well, that's great, however where do you draw the line ? I would also hesitate in your case just because the difference in # of jumps requirement is so massive, and the intent seems clearly to bend the rules. On the other hand, many people I see have just as many jumps at home or abroad, and are licensees holding qualifications and insurance in both countries, which set does take precedence? especially when in my case, it isn't quite clear (at least to me, feel free to disagree) which of the standards is the safest. There are plenty of cases where such discrimination does not make sense, IMO. Do we make exceptions for foreigners who jump mostly abroad and barely ever at home? What is the cutoff ratio? It quickly becomes silly. If they have the french qualifications and if the non-ws jump I do with them is clean, I'll teach them under the french guidelines, making sure they're aware of the restrictions that come with the course. If they lie when they tell me they'll adhere to my rules, what can I do and how is it different from a french guy lying to me when he says he won't be visiting tandems under canopy anytime soon? My point is that the issue of cross-broder abuse of regulation is made entirely of people who know full well both sets of regulations, and that the decision to take advantage of them, or to simply lie, is always going to be quite independent from the regulating body at home, the coach abroad, the type of jump, and the teaching used. I don't think it's very relevant to the topic of wave-offs in FFCs. So would I, but I would also feel very bad and partly responsible if I refused training and the guy went on to get hurt at home in a big suit that he was allowed to fly there. If I thought that our rules were less safe than other countries, I might agree with you, but I don't... so I do what we probably all do, the best I can with the situations I'm given. blue sky, interesting clouds! Francis.

Okay, let me rephrase, which certain aircraft+big suits do you feel some people should be restricted from using until they have those skills ?

That raises a question I've been having about big suits and tail strikes for a while. Are there planes in which those suits should really not be used ? I can see it being way easier with a tail exit (modulo waiting for the tail to pass), but are there planes from which a carpet suit should really not be allowed to exit at all because the risk is too high (high speed, low tail) ? We have limited experience with huge suits at our DZ, we have a Pilatus and a Twin Otter. Any info would be welcome.

You seem to be having a bit of a personnal issue there with someone in particular... i don't know who you're refering to but I don't think you'll find that money is only an incentive to french people tho :) I don't think it would be hard to find similar examples involving the reverse situation, like a french guy wanting to buy a carpet abroad at 500 jumps. Sure, then again, speaking only for myself, I saw no reason to say no to the 170-jumps spanish jumper who had a french license and all the french qualifications to begin wingsuiting. "No, you're spanish" wouldn't sit well with me, especially because I do feel he was safer jumping the collapsable wings than he would have been at home 30 jumps later with a big suit. I've since learned that he ended up not flying the big suit at all and that's he's waiting to come back here. Yay him. Precisely. And I like to think (hope!) we all do the best we can.

Not sure what you mean by vague, I've given specific reasons why it doesn't fit with the rest of the teaching in other disciplines and within the activity in general. Again if it's a plee to include wave-off from jump #1, then sure, why not, I'm not qualified to see what that implies beyond the current discussion. That's fair. They are bound by their own countries rules, yet by your own argument, they come to france in order to break them, so they aren't bound really, at least not anymore than jumpers from france or any other country are. It's fair to say that perhaps everybody should be more careful in enforcing other countries's regulations but that's quite an undertaking for any coach in any country (unrealistic IMO). There are french people who have gone to the US to fly carpets barely over 200 jumps and who have been able to do so without any trouble either, I don't see a difference here. And I don't blame the US coaches who can't know about every country's regulation. It's a problem, yes, but it's a symmetrical one. They actually do (bind french lincensed jumpers abroad), just as much as in any other country to my knowledge, but it's hard to enforce anything when the person doing the jump is the one not reporting it. I have to actually inform the federation if I go jump elsewhere (or my insurance won't apply), and they remind me that going abroad is no license for bypassing french requirements and regulations. What more can be done, I'm not sure ?

My apologies, I had missed the most important part: Ah! okay so you won't sign anything until they have the tools to fly in groups. Then I agree, the toolbox does include wave-off and isn't optional. We (or maybe just I and my instructor) just do it two step, and you don't really like that, gotcha.

Now that's arguable isn't it ? :) The kind of suits we allow at the lower standards (150 jumps) is nowhere near as problematic (or efficient) as a 'real' wingsuit can potentially be. Most countries allow any suit (even carpets) at 200, where we require 200 jumps + 40 beginner suit flights before wearing anything else (though, that's too many IMHO) and 600 jumps for carpet suits. Again, different rules, people will always cross the border one direction or another to take advantage of that :/ People go to france to feel like they're flying a wingsuit at 150 jumps, french people go elsewhere to wear carpet suits before 600 jumps. Again, not sure who's to blame except the person crossing the border with that intent. He'd be just as much in fault as a stubborn experience skydiver would be if he was following anybody who didn't have group qualification, that is, he'd be in real deep trouble specifically because the required procedures for a safe group jump are not in place, wave-off is clearly not the biggest problem here :) The situation you describe is not specific to wingsuits either, so it's really an argument for teaching wave-offs from the very beginning of a skydiver's life. I don't disagree, I'm not qualified to see the rest of the implications there, I'm only trying to give a wingsuit coaching that makes sense within the context in which it is given.

I don't have an AFFI handy, just PAC instructors (somewhat similar). I've asked the question and they've shown me a few things that they agreed did not apply to my case. Could you try to put what you mean into words for me ? I'm always willing to learn, truthfully, and you seem to imply that it's an important skill.

Still they know perfectly well that they are bending the rules. Once you want to bend the rules, nothing is going to prevent you... There are also many examples of people, from france or otherwise (we teach many spanish people here for instance), who have learned in france and who I know are keeping up their end of the bargain, jumping beginner suits until those who have begun their teaching tell them it's okay to jump bigger suits, and as well for joining group jumps. Of course, people who cross borders are always somewhat in between regulation and can play with that (like with the minimum number of jumps requirement), and I agree that it's a pity that some people take advantage of that. Still they do it knowing full well that it is against the wishes of those who have begun their teaching. I'm not sure the coach or the methods are to blame here. I hope it doesn't look like I was trying to say that france did it best, certainly i'm not. There are aspects of our regulation which are too limiting and some too permissive, IMHO. But I do think that the teaching makes sense in the context in which it is given: We actually do not require anybody to wave off for solo jumps (although many people do once they're used to it anyway). The teaching is suited to that context: waving off is a bahavior or group jumps here and so it makes sense to do the same for wingsuits as it is done for the other disciplines. I'm not sure I quite catch your meaning. Good if they are dangerous ? I'm not sure I would want to put two people like that next to each other, just so they can train impacting one another... I must have misunderstood what you meant.

Sublime... surreal... so beautiful... I'm sooo jealous of the footage you get to edit :P great work, and cool music as always.

We don't do this here. We teach "PAC", which is similar but different from AFF. We do not teach students to wave off, this is learned much later, when they pass their relative work and freefly qualifications. Again, I think it depends, but given the freedom you grant students after an FFC, I agree wholehartedly as it applies to you guys.

Having flown a few two ways with students that did things that I considered extremely dangerous despite expecting and knowing how to react to them, I cannot agree with that. To be fair you do say "most", but then if not all, how do I know at my dz that the newcomer can or cannot ? It's not an argument, it's just what I would expect from them. Probably I'm wrong, given what you guys say, based on experience. I had no trouble adding wave off to my routine after 75 solo flights ;)

True, but they are also given the keys to get into everybody else's airspace if they're not careful. Having them open at 5000 isn't just good for the student, so he can have lots of time to handle opening and equipement the first time on, it's also good for everybody else as it can minimize the consequences of bad navigation. I ask them not to pull lower until they've showned good awareness of the flight pattern and an ability to adhere to it. In practice, unless I see something I don't like, I let them lower the opening at their own pace after their 3rd jump or so.

I think it depends, from what I'm reading here it seems that after an FFC in the US, the student can go fly in groups anywhere with anybody. Certainly if that's the case he should know to wave off on his next flights. Here (france), I had to qualify for group flights with an instructor before I was allowed to join in. I wasn't told to wave off during my FFC, but was told to do so during group qualification. I practice the same thing with my students now, and they can't fly groups at our dz unless they have that qualification from me or another instructor (or can justify of enough prior experience, for foreigners for instance), and I don't see any dropzone manager letting it happen at their dz either when I specifically write "aptitude for solo flights" in the student's logbook. I don't see how an instructor could grant the qualification without wave-off being a requirement either. Not saying it's the best way and everybody should do the same as we do, it's just a nice way of splitting the amount of things to know about/remember/do while you learn wingsuiting. There are already so many during the FFC... Now would it serve any purpose to have the student wave me off during FFC or at any point during coaching before he can fly groups ? Well... I don't know if that would do anything for me really. Flying above or behind the student is a definite no-no, so if I'm there, i screwed up and I'm going to be going away immediately anyway. I try to fly alongside the student, always slightly ahead and I have my audible warn me 200m above the student's opening altitude, so I can pay extra attention from that point on. I'm a fairly new instructor but from what I've seen of others around me, they seem to be doing something similar. I can't really see a negative side to doing it on FFC either though, other than perhaps adding to the complexity of the opening, i would expect many students to just forget to do it. It's not that complex to wave off, of course, but regardless of how much you de-dramatize them, some students are sressed up about wingsuit openings, just from things they've heard, i could see the argument made for streamlining them the first time on, but not if you're going to allow the student to fly groups after that.