Para5-0

Ahhh the good ole days.

I am pondering one in April at Skydive Long Island in Calverton. USPA/Skydive University Coach rating.

Thank you, I was disappointed I could not make it out there, so I appreciate the update.

Anyone who attended, and has a moment, I would love to get an update on what took place and the topics discussed. More importantly if anything came out of it. Thanks,

I will offer one thought: keeping the riser cover flap closed on a RTS rig requires and act of god. You can retuck it ten times and it will pop open like that every time. The design is horrible.

I went though Prudential and had skydiving specifically written into the policy. Expensive as hell. $300.00/Month for 500k.

Jan, I probably did and I am sorry. I am much better at debate in person than on a public forum. I like to believe we have similar agendas when it comes to safety.

Advanced Instructor Course Syllabus: ADVANCED INSTRUCTORS COURSE c Day 1 Introduction Conducting presentations in Adult Education Assess the needs of the Learner Learning Process Presentation Methods Train Aids General Evaluation Day 2 Facilitation methods Psychology demonstating sessions Day 3 The Role of the Course Director Skill Analysis Conflict Resolution Day 4 Recap, closure and Personal interviews Practical Evaluation interviews

With all due respect, I 100% disagree with you. It is an utterly ridiculous arguement and I am surprised you even brought it up. I am starting to feel as if you are the devils advocate of everything regarding improvement/safety or you are extrememly liberal. In either case, you appear to be an obstacle to change or improvement. This is an exert that you sent to USPA, "For about 5 years now I have tried to get little tiny changes to the SIM. I have asked my RD and many other Directors and HQ to follow up of these items. It was all for naught. The items never made it to a discussion or into the SIM." Do you feel disgruntled therefore those that wish to attempt change should give up? The questions: 1. Does John Doe Jump at your DZ? 2. How many jumps has he done in the previous 12 months? Once a log book is presented, the student is volunteering the information in the log book as valid and representing his/her resume. Supposedly, with signatures. In your thought process if I call the person who signed the log book they can not tell me if they signed it or not because he would be opening himself up to personal liability. I imagine the lawsuit for not verifying the credentials would be just as detrimental? Why dont you open the flood gates up for forging and lying about credentials if you are saying that verifying them is not allowed for fear of a lawsuit. I believe it is our responsibility to verify. How is it possible that you would be opposed to this? If we put our tail between our legs and run everytime we are scared of a lawsuit , then we will have our own Fort Hood masacre. All because we are scared to offend someone. I call bullshit. Would that be any different than a DZ letting an uncurrent person jump 'without verifying the credentials' they presented. In your mind, which I do not know what side you are on, the USPA database should be illegal as well. DZ's can search names, and determine if skydivers are current members. Explain your agenda? Is it to cautiously move forward and attempt to improve our system? If so, what are your suggestions? I would love to hear them and will support you in implementation. Note: I think your whistle idea is spot on.

Does it happen? Yes Can it be prevented? I had a student that I guestioned for Tandem I. I called the dropzone he worked at and retrieved real exact numbers. Nowhere near what I was told by the way. There were no other DZ's jumped at. It may take a bit of vigilalance. With computer systems at most DZ's some records can be obtained. In another instance, for a D license and downsize below 150, I had to go to the records as well. Both were below cited numbers. Keep in mind the only reason I did this was a suspicion based on what I was seeing in the air and under canopy. If the student was a natural, I would never have questioned it. Maybe if it were requirred to contact previous jumped at DZ's, you could cut down on the bullshit.

Andrew, I agree with you totally, unfortunately it was an option with the dam web site. The list with all names will go to S&T. If someone does not want the general population to see they support it, then I am not sure what else I can do. An example might be a BOD member I guess, but I agree.

The administrator has access to all signatures. An anonomous signature just appears when people view the petition. On the signature page you can uncheck the box that says to show your name. Also do not donate any money just x out.. Show my name in the online signature list

Hello, I am trying to follow your thoughts here but I am having difficulty. I see nothing hypocritical about either. I never mentioned instructors names or DZ's. I am seeing a trend that I am not happy with. I have my thoughts about the video and would gladly discuss them with anyone if it was for constructive purpose, but only in PM's. I do not know the TI and do not want to air this out on DZ.com. As far as the second post, I have been extrememly vocal and proactive. If you have several hours to kill, read the "Is AFF too Easy thread". I have been extrememly outspoken and give alternate solutions to my perceived flaws. I have to say 145 people tend to agree with me. http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/instructorchanges/ Rather then wine about the process I am trying to initiatle change. I have sent letters to S&T, I have spoken to my RD, I am in the process of getting put on the agenda for Phoenix. How is a guy hypocritical if he is trying to improve a system? I do not believe we ever met but I have to imagine you as a professional do not want to start talking about specific incidents here, or do you? Would that help or just be an assault on certain people.

c'mon fellas, this is ridiculous to compare the two diciplines. ( Tandem/AFF ) Apples to oranges. They are two very different animals and to say one is harder or more complex is absurd. It is the similarities that should be discussed. Such as maturity of the instructor, overall experience needed, air time, time in sport, jump requirements, ground student preperation techniques..... judge the system for obtaining both or the paths that one should take to become an instructor. The fact is that the system has flaws some can be adjusted or corrected some may not be able to. I do Tandems and AFF so I do know what it takes to do both, and imho an Instructor MUST master each. We have no room for error here, peoples lives are dependant on it. If a tandem passenger falls out of a harness or a AFFI loses a student, the end result is bad regardless. Skydiving gets a black eye in both instances. So stop complaining and do something about it. I am: http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/instructorchanges/ As far as the video of BO, I saw it and will not air my thoughts here or Monday quarterback another Instructor. I will say that I learned something and I use what I learned in my Tandem I classes.

Hey Steve, At the risk of getting involved in another 17 page, thread. I have been screaming this on the other thread, "Is the AFF rating too easy". I have sent my proposed changes for the coach rating, c license 200 jumps, the one year as coach requirement for any Instructional course, and bring back the AFFJM for oversight. This will definatley impact tandems. I also personally would like to see the min brought up to 1000 but that will never happen. At least requirring 1 year as a coach will give the student theoretically 20 jumps if they want to stay current before taking the TM course. I have giving the Tandem course to guys with wet ink on the coach rating, I call bullshit. Check out the petition: We are onthe same page attacking from two different angles. Bottom line we may need a overhaul of the system. http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/instructorchanges/

Bro, I can tell you one thing, that is some kick ass scenery, man I am missing out. Great shots. On another stupid side note, for several reasons I do not wear a video or still on any AFF jumps. Just a personal decision. I have had jumps go bad even graduating jumps where I have to interviene. I just prefer not to have it there. I have heard the argument that it is just there and whatever you get you get but the student is primary. That is cool, I just disagree. To each his own. Again, they are great shots.

AMEN Brother Again, 1000 jumps has always been my thought. and a coach for a required period of time preferably at least 1 year. and while I am dreaming up the years to 5. Im done.

Good to hear it worked out now maybe you can ask him for my New Tandem pants I gave him three years ago to alter and he fell off the face of the earth.

A cuople added points: I am not freaking out on the internet, I have been jumping for 18 years and have had this concern for probably the better part of the last 5. I just really did not have the time or method to speak to instructors from around the country. I will speak with Safety & Training and ask them the proper procedures and protocols. If they would like me to fly out and present my thoughts I will. If they want statistics, then I will get them to the best of my ability. This thread is really just to educate myself on othter areas and instructors views so I know what I am facing. I like to get my facts inline before I take any action, this way I do not look like an uneduacated asshole. Whatever your agenda is, which I have no idea by the way, I would listen and support you in anyway that I could. You bring up one very good point that some may not realize. This is run like a paramilitrary organization because there is a set up heirarchy in place. Far beit for me to violate any chain of command. I will go through proper channels. I agree with this organization being a slow moving process that is why it is imperative to take it slowly and incorporate as many people as possible. True change is easier if people have say in the change rather than having something crammed down their throats. I am not screaming the sky is falling and as a side note I did not forward this to half the world. I wanted to accumulate thoughts and then go to S&T. It appears the petition beat me there. My bad. One last note, and I am not refering to anyone particular but I have also been transparent with this giving my full name and contact information, which may have been a bad thing as I have spoken now to several dozen people on the phone and more than that via email. DSE: If you have experience in dealing with the uspa bod and comittee's that can only help me by asking your opinion. You can sav3 me some time and effort, and I appreciate that. I just like to stay as positive as I can, I do not have time for negativity.

QuoteAs a newly rated AFF Instructor should I have to spend a year as a reserve side jumpmaster? I have mixed feelings on this. I feel I should be qualified and ready to be able to handle anything (main side or reserve side). Quote Kim, you have a great post and I would like to hit on some of it but I only have some time here. The above is incorrect you can jump main or reserve or even alone as an AFFJM. You are just being supervised and have an Instructor to help debrief you and give you some usefull tips. If the DZ wants to throw a new AFFJM on one on one jumps have at it. But there will be a heirarchy between you and a AFFI that has been working with students and can give you some useful debriefing. As someone statd the only difference was that a AFFJM could not teach the FJC alone. So rest assured you are not losing anything. As far as being ready for anything after your AFFCC, be careful with this one. An I/E can not nearly throw at you what you will have to deal with in the air. Yes more and thorough groundwork helps but the fact is you are going to have shit thrown at you that you have never seen before and you better be ready to handle it. If I told you that your next student would flip over, and go into a helicopter speed back spin and then said to you would you like someone who has dealt with this many times to be there with you? What would you say? Sure couldnt hurt to slowly be introduced to disasterous situations. I will tell you right now, NO AFFCC new graduate is ready for what they will encounter and if they think becuase they have a new shiny card that they were anointed with the experience to handle anything, that person is dangerous. Fast forward down the road where you have 1000 aff jumps. now a brand new AFF shows up with his card saying, "I can handle anything I passed the course" Wouldnt youlike to have some oversight on him/her. The JM rating just allows youto keep an eye on Mr or Mrs. I can handle anything. I have around 1500 AFF now, and I will tell you I have had some weird shit happen to me, but in the same breath the next jump could be the most harrowing experience of my life and I know it. I treat every jump as a mini war, me vs. student. and I can not lose one war. At larger DZ's these new AFF's are dangerous because they have that I can handle anything additude. I just would like to keep them in check.

Quote"At the next AFF standardization mtg I brought up the idea of using real AFF eval jumps to distribute to all the AFF IEs. Then they would watch each jump and grade it. Then the grades would be compared. That would help ensure a more uniform grading policy. The idea was shot down because several AFFCD did not want their vids distributed and there was a model release issue. There is also the difference between watching a dive 3rd person and actually being on it, & off-screen issues. But I think that enough vids can be gathered to help get the grading standardized."Quote I personally would support this idea with no problem. As far as your reasons for keeping the coach rating where it is, thank you. Finally someone has filled me in on the resistance. I understand those concerns and I will go as far as to say they are at least valid reasons. The flip side of the coin is the med to larger DZ that when an eager candidate has 100 jumps and gets his coach rating, he is being put in a precarious situation. I have seen him made fun of behind his back, ridiculed, and the majority of the skydiving community saying, "What the hell is a guy with 100 jumps actually going to teach anyone. knowing like you said there is a 1000 jump I ready to take the same student on a coach jump. Remember I am a Coach I/E and have defended and argued avery aspect of the coach requirements, advocating for the 100, B. The problem is, I see it so discouraging and embarassing to these new coaches. I have been a buffer in between the new 100 jump coach and every other instructor that basically says what the hell can that guy teach anyone. The new coach knows what people think and it is unfair to put them in this position. At a small DZ a 100 jumps may seem like alot and that person must be at the DZ quite often to acquire that many, so they are building relationships as an experienced jumper. This is a serious problem at a med to larger DZ. I will give a bit of push back on all they must do is teach the basic of skills and act as a base. A coach is responsible for molding a future skydiver, and that includes giving or exposing him/her to every aspect of the sport. At 100 jumps what exactly experience can they draw from. I personally feel 100 jumps is not enough to be given this responsibility. Remember 25 jumps are AFF and made towards your A license. So 75 jumps is about what youare looking at give or take some. If we push it to 200, these prospective coaches are not going anywhere, they will still get the rating just in a better posisition as far as air time and ground DZ experience.

I love you guys and your ability to research but does it take statistical data to make a hypothesis that a coach will have more experience prior to the course with 200 jumps rather than 100? or if you coach for one year, and remain current 20 coach jumps, you will have more experience than if you go directly into an instructor course the next day? What if we are successful in implementing change and then we have a rash of student incidents, (God forbid) does that mean we can go back to less stringent requirements? I have spoken about stats x 10 during this monstrasity of a thread. They are not reported, period. Do not expect a call from a DZ or an instructor saying Hello USPA, I lost a student today, sorry just couldnt catch him/her. Here is my rating thanks, Can we stick to the point can we raise the coach requirement to 200 jumps and a C license? and require 12 months in rating to be eligible for an instructor course. The JM stuff and one year under a AFFI is gravy as far as I am concerned because I see that this is going to be an uphill battle. The resistance is pretty impressive to say the least. I just have no sane reason why it needs to be that way. 103 Skydivers so far think we need to do something. Take a look at the names, it is fairly impressive. I know that I/E's are on there, DZO's are on there, S&TA's are on there. and some BOD wish they could be on there. If you want stats then maybe we can start a petition to keep it the same. Then lets take the first 100 skydivers and add up the total number of combined jumps on each petition, the one with the most skydives wins. There are your stats. Of course I am being phasetious. Next step after acquiring at least 200 signatures is to draft a letter to my regional director asking his assistance in getting this on the table for discussion. If any of you have suggestions please make them. and if you say they will want statistics then you guys are coming with me.

One more thing to AirRage, Not signing the petition does not hurt me. The petition only says that we would like to discuss concerns and a possible better route. By not signing it you are saying you do not want there to be any discussion and how it is, is how it will stay. If you are pissed then make some contribution in way of voicing your concerns or experiences. You can sign it anonymously and only I will see your name. The letter clearly states that I only want to open up discussion and I voiced some of my suggestions. Bring your own to the table and I will assist or at least meet you in the middle. I feel like I am reaching across party lines here and you are content with partisan politics.

Air, Good post, I still feel you have a lot of hostility towards the system and those that benefited from it. I assure you, Ido not. I am an I/E working in the field as well. I agree with the 500 jumps and I also would love to see the tandem go to 1000. I just feel it is a pipe dream of mine but I support it whole heartedly. I am on the same side as you and take your thoughts seriously. I hope to present our thoughts to the committe through the proper channels. It will be hard if experienced I/E's like yourself just monitor threads and dont voice opinions. Your post is exactly what I was asking. My opinion is only in my small corner of the skydiving world. I have no idea of other I/E's experiences or concerns. Maybe a annual I/E meeting may be in order for some way for us to communicate effectively.

Boca, I hate to loose people in the sport but I imagine the S&TA at the DZ, The DZO, your instructors, and fellow skydivers who know you and exactly what happened would have much better thougths on this than us. I hate monday quarterbacking anyone. If you are bored and just want to hear other opinions have at it. But put your seatbelt on it might be a bit harsh.