freethefly

Unions are merely a variable in the equation. In certain parts of any given industry, they do more harm than good. On the other hand, there are areas that they are needed to create a balance. Toyota would not pay as good as they do if wages at GM or Ford were sub standard. They would pay a comparable wage. They understand that a wage that supports the community their plant is in is needed to reduce the chance of the workers would organize with a union. This is also a win for the union. It creates a balance. If there were no union, wages would fall. That would hurt those at Toyota just as much as it would those at GM and Ford. I have indicated to such. Not all workers belong to a union. Just as many non-union workers have lost jobs. It was 100% across the board. Our economy is in the state that it is due to good paying jobs (union and non-union) going overseas. When people can no longer afford to buy the products that are offered, the effect is tremendous. The ripple began more than 40 years ago. Only in the last ten years did it become apparent, to some at least, that this was a long time coming. Like a tsunami, small waves lapping at the shore, it will eventually have a devastating effect on a community and the entire country. So yes, it is not just about unions. It is about every person in our country. It is better to support the entire USA and let what is left trickle to other countries, but don't allow a flood of jobs flow freely from our shores. "...And once you're gone, you can't come back When you're out of the blue and into the black." Neil Young

A few seconds faster is no reason to retain a person over the person who has 30 years of experience and dedication. Loyalty and pride use to mean something in this country. It use to be a valuable asset and desired by employers. Not so much anymore. I know why. I was there as the jobs went out the door and Ingersoll Rand auctioned off the machinery. The space was then leased out for storage. Ingersoll Rand has a history of gutting profitable companies for the quick buck. They paid 1.7B for Hussmann in 2000. Several years ago, as Hussmann became not so profitable for them, they set out to sell a larger portion of the company. Over the summer they sold 60% for just over 300M. Hussmann had a long history in St. Louis, its home town. Over 100 years of providing good jobs to thousands of people. Those jobs help to keep the local economy thriving. Parts that were not could not be made in the plant were made elsewhere in St. Louis. It was a positive ripple effect throughout the greater St. Louis area. Remove a major employer and it is just not the people at the plant who suffer the down turn, it is every industry that relies on that plant. The ripple turns and goes in a negative direction. It's not just union people who suffer. It's everyone along the chain. Sad that so many do not see the big picture. Exorbitant wages? The wages at Hussmann ranged from around $12.00 to just over $20.00. The higher skilled labor was at the top. I was second from the top. Maintenance was the top earners. We worked for every dime we made. Our wages supported our communities. How is that bad or exorbitant? There was very little savings to Ingersoll Rand by shipping parts up from Mexico. Lines would often have to shut down due to parts that would not fit properly. Some parts could be hand drilled on the line and then installed. Other parts, such as panels and trim, went into the scrap bin. Every time the line stops, that is a cost the goes into thousands of dollars. When an entire shipment of parts are not usable, the cost is extremely high. Fabricating parts in plant reduces the cost to near zero. If parts start to run low, it is a simple matter of just making more. Fitment is perfect. There is no question to that. Quality saves cost. Fitment saves time. A company loses that edge when they use parts that come from out of country. Not every job lost is a union job. Just as many non union workers were put out of a job. Closing a plant, union and non union, as a tremendous negative effect nation wide. Closing a plant in California can very well have a negative effect to the economy in a town in Maine. It's not just union people who hurt. It is every business that depends on those dollars to support their small business. Restaurants, gas stations, dry cleaners, laundromats, movie theaters, parts stores, barbers... every business in the community takes a hit. Sad that you do not realize that. You should take an economics class. "...And once you're gone, you can't come back When you're out of the blue and into the black." Neil Young

Oh the irony... manufacturing jobs are returning. High shipping cost, goods damaged in shipping, labor cost... http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/43569240/ns/business-us_business/t/surging-china-costs-forces-some-us-manufacturing-companies-back-home/ Why move production from the world's low-cost workshop back to a unionized U.S. factory where wages are six times higher than in China? Efficiency: The machine in Milwaukee is about 30 times as fast as the Chinese factories the company had been buying from, more than making up for the difference in wages. "I can manufacture combination locks in Milwaukee for less of a cost than I can in China," said Bob Rice, a senior vice president at the largest U.S. padlock manufacturer. http://finance.fortune.cnn.com/2011/06/29/return-of-american-manufacturing/ Overseas workers are getting more expensive. Shipping costs keep increasing. Global supply chains have shown weak links. Fed up with the poor quality of having their products made in China, American businesses like Sleek Audio are moving production back home. And on tax: http://dealbook.nytimes.com/2011/08/16/tax-policy-change-would-bring-cash-piles-abroad-back-home/ A permanent tax reduction would not only cut taxes but actually raise revenue, allowing for Republicans to vote for it. And it should be a holiday without restrictions — trying to force companies to invest the money rather than pay dividends is a useless exercise that will create only more bureaucracy. Even if the money were largely spent on buybacks and dividends and a large portion were kept abroad, it would still be reasonable to expect $300 billion to $600 billion to be repatriated. This money would flow into the economy, making the dividend tax cut a stimulus package that Democrats could support. "...And once you're gone, you can't come back When you're out of the blue and into the black." Neil Young

HaHaHaHa... You're laugh. Considering that you live outside the U.S. and, by all indications, is out of touch with the reality in this country. How are you going to feel when Camp Bondsteel is eventually shut down? http://www.usmessageboard.com/the-middle-east-general/166447-camp-bondsteel-military-base.html Other reports I have read indicated that Bondsteel was a drain on the U.S. and not needed. The largest contractor, KBR, rakes in millions of U.S. taxpayer dollars. But I guess that is fine with you as you much rather support a foreign economy than you would the U.S. economy. After all, you don't live here. "...And once you're gone, you can't come back When you're out of the blue and into the black." Neil Young

I wouldn't say that lightly. In the past militant Christian based groups and individuals have caused their fair share of violence or attempted to do so. The Michigan based Hutaree militia quickly came to mind. Had they not been arrested, they very much would had put their plan into action. http://documents.nytimes.com/indictment-of-the-hutaree-militia?ref=us#document/p1 There are still a large number of militias operating in the U.S. The Southern Poverty Law Center has an extensive list of 1002 active "patriot" groups. Many of these groups are "militias". Near all of them are extreme right wing Christian based groups. http://www.splcenter.org/get-informed/hate-map These groups are every bit as dangerous as any militant Islamic group. If you don't believe that groups like the Westboro Church group is not dangerous, give them time and they are sure to prove you wrong. "...And once you're gone, you can't come back When you're out of the blue and into the black." Neil Young

They know exactly where it is. After all, they are the ones who outsourced it to China. "...And once you're gone, you can't come back When you're out of the blue and into the black." Neil Young

Is it not nice that each year more Americans will not have to pay taxes due to living in poverty? Is it not nice that each year more Americans will have to file for government benefits because their job went to another country so the CEO can have a larger salary? Is it not nice that communities are becoming slums due to loss of income from those who had good jobs no longer have them. Is it not nice that some would rather support the economies in a foreign country rather than the economy in America. Is it not nice that some in America wave the flag while flipping off their fellow Americans who can no longer help to support their country. Is it not nice that many vets are coming home to find they cannot be hired due to their job is now being outsourced to a foreign country. How nice is it that the promise that America once was as been outsourced? "...And once you're gone, you can't come back When you're out of the blue and into the black." Neil Young

Well, if they want to pay wages that reflect wages in the 70s, they should sell their cars at prices that reflect the 70s prices. Otherwise, they'll never be able to sell cars to a country that is inhabited with a population that is on the poverty line. Furthermore, forget about income tax as the workers are barely getting by. And what about that local economy. Do you like slums? It appears to me that you fail to realize that good wages support everything from the cafe across the road from the plant to the armed forces. Low wages = no taxes. If you wish to tax the hell out of a population that is living in poverty, expect hell to come from it. "...And once you're gone, you can't come back When you're out of the blue and into the black." Neil Young

My experience has always been that each person who can perform their job, retained their job. If you were not able to perform the job, you were let go. Every person on the line is capable of doing the job required to build the product. Those who have been on the line longer retains their job during slow downs. Would you rather a person who has been there 30 years lose his job to an eighteen year old kid because that kid is a little bit faster? Out sourcing? Out sourcing tends to go to places like Mexico. When Hussmann shut down the sheet metal department, all sheet metal parts came from Mexico. We junked quite a few parts due to mis-runs. No quality control. Coils were once built in the plant. Again, out sourced to a contractor in Mexico. Not very good quality. Lots of leaks that had to be repaired on the line. Time lost. Add it up with the parts that went in the scraper and that is a lot of money. Ingersoll Rands solution? Move 75% of the work to Mexico. The end result? A loss for the local economy. Not just the local economy, but the local economies of parts suppliers across the country. But why would you care? You have yours and your attitude towards other Americans seem to be "screw them." How do you feel about the union busting tactic at the Hershey Plant? http://philadelphiaemploymentlawnews.com/2011/08/j-1-students-protest-hershey-chocolate-factory.html The 400 Hershey J-1 students were hired by a Hershey contractor to operate one of the chocolate company's warehouses, reports the Daily News. The students would pay up to $6,000 to come to the country for the opportunity to immerse themselves in American culture by working in the job for three months. However, the J-1 students say they learned very little American culture outside of factory life. They spent their time with other foreign students and had little money to leave the confines of Hershey. Hershey's response? ...representatives from the Hershey chocolate factory said that the students were just pawns of the local union. The union was apparently upset that local jobs were being lost to the J-1 students. I am imagining that you fully support Hershey. I mean, after all, to hell with those lazy Americans. Right? "...And once you're gone, you can't come back When you're out of the blue and into the black." Neil Young

A person's "natural rights" are what they have when they're left naked on a deserted island. You have the right to attempt to survive using nothing but what nature gave you. Beyond that we live in a society and, like it or not, societies live according to rules agreed upon by that society. Even the people that live under monarchy/dictatorial rule do so because they've agreed to it. Don't believe me? See what happens the second the underlings come together and decide they don't agree with it any more. The only exception I can think of is when some members of society have overwhelming power over other members of society as in a master/slave relationship where the masters have free reign and the power at their disposal to simply slaughter those that disagree with them. Sadly, this is the way most dictators operate, but even still, the moment the people around the dictator disagree, a coup is possible. After reading this reply, I am assuming you have read Plato's 'The Republic'? "...And once you're gone, you can't come back When you're out of the blue and into the black." Neil Young

Maybe she's leading up to wishing John Lennon a happy birthday come December, while blaring 'Back in the USSR' and claiming that is proof that he was a commie (even though it was pretty much Paul who wrote it.) "...And once you're gone, you can't come back When you're out of the blue and into the black." Neil Young

Well, let's be fair. Hypothetical questions, such as this one, can be one-sided and tend to favor the straw man fallacy as this one does. If I were to keep the hypothetical employees the company would fail due to paying people with no money coming in. Eventually, the company would be bankrupt and everyone is out of a job and I am a bad person. If I were to let them go, I am anti-worker (union?) and a bad person. This hypothetical has no answer that would satisfy as any of the two possible answer would tend to shade me as a bad person. My only choice was to change the parameters of the hypothetical in order to answer outside the fallacy. I stand by my answer that I would only hire what is needed thereby not falling for the fallacy. You can either accept that answer or not. Why continuing badgering it? One of the fallacies that I alluded to: Not so. Those in the union understand seniority. While at Hussmann, I was laid off once before the big downsizing that occurred under Ingersoll Rand. I had no problem with that as I realize it is part of being union. The people JB and I would use, when extra help was needed, were union and understood that they were only there until the job was finished. Small siding jobs were done by John and myself as only a cutter and a hanger were needed. The apartment complex was large and we brought on four extra guys to help. St. Louis is overwhelmingly union. There are very few non-union contractors. They can do the job for less than the non-union outfits as they strictly adhere to safety, codes and craftsmanship. Do shoddy work, ignore codes and safety the union will dump your ass outside the gate. St. Louis was built by union workers. You must prove yourself to work on a union crew. You and other union haters tend to believe that the union has a history of crappy work and lazy workers. Your Harley is union made. Your truck, if it is a Chevy, Ford, or Dodge is union made. Most of your tools are union made. My experience in the union is lazy did not cut it. At Hussmann, you had no time to lolly gag. You humped every minute of the day. If the line comes to a halt because you were goofing off, you were fired. The union backed the company when it came to slackers. "...And once you're gone, you can't come back When you're out of the blue and into the black." Neil Young

while everyone wants it to be owners or employees, I think it's fairer to say a company exists because of its customers. The owner creates it with the notion of profits, but its continued existence is a different matter. Can we say, every person from the owner to the customer is needed for a company to exist? I'll step out on the plank and say that is true. "...And once you're gone, you can't come back When you're out of the blue and into the black." Neil Young

The question: "So if you had two crews working for your siding business, one did only cedar clapboard, and the other only vinyl, and cedar clapboard fell out of favor would you continue to keep the same number of people on the cedar crew even though they didn't make you nearly as much money any more." My answer: We only hired what was needed. So, now follow along as most people probably figured it out on their own, if we did not need people for the cedar (or for what we did as we did not do cedar and very little vinyl, mostly fiberboard,) we would let them go, as we only hired what was needed. Is that simple for you (see bold portion of the expanded answer.) I made no such statement that there were only two types of workers. I've worked with a number of top notch non-union welders. I'll be non-union, again, when I return to Sperry. All top notch people. In the case of the apartment complex project, the owner tried to cut corners with low pay workers who did not follow codes and ignored safety rules. He got what he paid for. I have used this particular job as an example of what can go wrong when corners are cut on this board in the past. JB and I had worked alongside contractors who were non union and their work was top notch. No problem. "...And once you're gone, you can't come back When you're out of the blue and into the black." Neil Young

I agree with your point that the profits belong solely to the owner. In my reply, I extended to say that an employer who treats his/her employees well does better than one that doesn't. Employers who offer profit sharing tend to do very well. Making employees part owners instills a higher level of pride leading employees to perform better. That is a win-win for everyone. "...And once you're gone, you can't come back When you're out of the blue and into the black." Neil Young

The question: "So if you had two crews working for your siding business, one did only cedar clapboard, and the other only vinyl, and cedar clapboard fell out of favor would you continue to keep the same number of people on the cedar crew even though they didn't make you nearly as much money any more." My answer: We only hired what was needed. So, now follow along as most people probably figured it out on their own, if we did not need people for the cedar (or for what we did as we did not do cedar and very little vinyl, mostly fiberboard,) we would let them go, as we only hired what was needed. Why keep people sitting around if there were no work for them? Why would they stay if there were no pay for them? Now, mind you, I did expand on what JB and I did. We were but two guys who would bid on subcontract work. We hired strictly from the union job board. We were also members of the union. Those, whom we hired on, knew that the job only lasted until it was completed. I did not gloss over my answer. It was at the start. Oh, and yes the union did step in and save the project. It got finished without interruptions, it was up to code, no backing up for rework. In the end, the owner of the project was more than happy with the quality and that the job was completed under the time frame predicted. His cost would had been far less if he would not had try to cut corners. "...And once you're gone, you can't come back When you're out of the blue and into the black." Neil Young

Comprehension is your friend. Find it and buddy up. JB and I would mostly bid on subcontract jobs with the larger contract companies in the St. Louis/St. Charles area... We hired what was needed. Speaking of comprehension, here is what was asked: "So if you had two crews working for your siding business, one did only cedar clapboard, and the other only vinyl, and cedar clapboard fell out of favor would you continue to keep the same number of people on the cedar crew even though they didn't make you nearly as much money any more." Re-read the above, and try again. Once again, my answer was, we hired what was needed. Any person with a reasonable level of comprehension would derived that to mean, yes, he would let go of the crew not needed. You know, Mike, you do this type of round about arguing with everyone whom you do not like. I'm sick of playing your childish game. Grow up. "...And once you're gone, you can't come back When you're out of the blue and into the black." Neil Young

Comprehension is your friend. Find it and buddy up. JB and I would mostly bid on subcontract jobs with the larger contract companies in the St. Louis/St. Charles area... We hired what was needed. "...And once you're gone, you can't come back When you're out of the blue and into the black." Neil Young

JB and I would mostly bid on subcontract jobs with the larger contract companies in the St. Louis/St. Charles area. We also used members of the St. Louis Carpenters District Council and paid the wage that the union and area contractors deemed fair. We were also members of the union ourselves. The contractors paid us the amount of our bid and we paid the guys we took on their fair share per the union contract. At $210.00 per square being applied every half hour or so, it was a win-win for everyone. It pays to have quality, knowledgeable people on a crew. Also, the guys we took on knew that they were not permanent as they worked off of the board. We hired what was needed. In contrast, the last bid we did was on a large apartment community construction project. We won the contract with St. Charles Exteriors. The project was owned by a developer from Texas. He brought people from Texas to do most of the construction. The majority of the license plates on the site were from Mexico. Communication with his crews were near impossible. The quality was horrendous. If you started at 12 inches on one end of a soffit run, you'll end up either under or over that dimension by the time you got half way through the run. Most areas we would check before starting could not be done due to the sections being out of dimension. As an example, we built all of the bird-boxes per blueprints beforehand. What we found when attempting to install them is they would not fit due to the eaves not being constructed per blueprint dimension. Throughout the build site mistakes where everywhere. Codes were not followed. The owners work crews were living on the site. They shit and pissed where ever they wished. The place was a mess. It was hard for us to do our job and we would run over in time. It was killing our profit. I'm sure that you realize that time is money. Eventually, and thankfully, the union was able to shut the job site down. Inspectors failed most of the work that was down by the out of state (out of country) crews as it was sub-standard. OSHA fined the crap out of the owner of the site. A picket line went up to keep anyone and everyone off of the site. Eventually, the owner caved and no one but union was on the site. Rework was done. Everything was brought up to code. JB, myself, and our crew were able to breeze through our portion unhindered by sloppy work. Unions ensure quality. Why wouldn't they? If you were not able to perform your job, you were gone. Poor craftsmanship would be a negative for the union. Popsjumper stated that it was hard to get rid of union deadwood. Not so, in my experience. On a job site, those who did not perform got the ax. At Hussmann, those who did not perform got the ax "...And once you're gone, you can't come back When you're out of the blue and into the black." Neil Young

I fully agreed with his point as I stated that I fully understand why a person enters into business. A friend and I ran a siding business for a couple of years. I ran an embroidery/DTG business for 4 years. I fully understand that the goal is to generate a profit. So, what is your point, other to pound your chest and claim a quasi-victory? "...And once you're gone, you can't come back When you're out of the blue and into the black." Neil Young

Wow. Have you seen an ultrasound? You can't see Ultrasound Your smarter than that: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultrasound You cannot see the electrical-mechanical property of an ultrasonic wave without the aid of specialized equipment such as reflectoscopes or sonographic scanners. Firestone-Sperry scope http://www.ob-ultrasound.net/sperry.html Scopes have come along way since those days. What is seen is a representation of amplitudes at varying time of returning mechanical to electrical energy. The process is widely used in the NDT industry. "...And once you're gone, you can't come back When you're out of the blue and into the black." Neil Young

I fully understand that a person starts a business to create a profit for him/herself. Why start one if not? One of the products of starting a company is the creation of jobs. Without those, from the top to the bottom, the company cannot exist. In order for a company to remain in existence, it needs employees who care enough to do the very best. In order to retain the best, you have to offer fair compensation for the job performed. An owner cannot take it all, give the finger to the employees, and treat them like crap. If he/she does, the product suffers in quality. The best will not remain, only those willing to work for sub-standard compensation. That will destroy a company. Disgruntle employees do not care. Those treated fairly do care. I will say, unions do not belong in the small company that is owned solely by the creator. I will say that unions are needed in the large companies that are a corporation or part of a conglomerate. "...And once you're gone, you can't come back When you're out of the blue and into the black." Neil Young

Dude go with the best: K&N filters. - even for Guatemalans I'm a Fram man, myself "...And once you're gone, you can't come back When you're out of the blue and into the black." Neil Young

That makes no sense. As a company grows, jobs are created. If a company falters, jobs are eliminated. It is in the best interest of a company to grow and create jobs. It is in the best interest of the employee to help a company grow in order to retain their jobs. It is in the best interest of the company to offer fair compensation to those who create the concepts of product to the who build the product that generates the companies profit. Every person needs to be compensated fairly for their effort. I use to be employed with Hussmann Refrigeration. I earned $20.00 per hour straight time. Time and a half was $30.00 per hour. I worked a 12 hour day Monday to Friday. At times we worked on Saturday for eight hours. Monday through Friday I started my day at 3:00am and worked until 3:00pm. Saturday was 7-3:30. I was very happy. I made great money and greatly supported the local economy, as did everyone else. Hussmann was extremely profitable in those days. A leader in the industry. We, the union employees, were extremely proud of the product we produced. I was thrilled to see nothing but Hussmann cases in a grocery store. Nothing but the best. In fact, we had a hand in how the product was produced. The union encouraged its members to find ways to cut cost on the floor. After all, members were also shareholders. What was good for the company was good for the union employee. Then comes along Ingersoll Rand in 2000. The company was sold for 1.7B. No sooner than they bought Hussmann, pink slips were handed out. Near 75% of the employees at the Bridgeton plant were out of a job by 2002. I lost my job in 2002. Where did the jobs go? Mexico. Over this last summer Ingersoll Rand sold 60% of the Hussmann to Clayton, Dubilier & Rice for $370m. Ingersoll has posted a loss in the company. Can the people on the factory floor be blamed for the loss? Or should blame lay on the shoulders of management? Maybe both? After all, you get what you pay for. Before Ingersoll Rand came along, Hussmann and the USWA were in perfect harmony. Profits were at an all time high and there were plenty of room to go higher. Ingersoll Rand destroyed that with their anti-union tactics. They destroyed what was good. To get a feel of how people feel about Ingersoll Rand: http://hvac-talk.com/vbb/archive/index.php/t-156871.html From the board: absrbrtek 12-17-2007, 03:33 PM I was in management in IR for 2 years after they bought out Hussmann. They gutted Hussmann like filleting a fish. IR will ruin whats left of Trane in the next 2 years once they try to force their policies and lean them out like they did to Hussmann. This is great news for independent contractors, IR has no idea about how to run a service business or treat a customer. When I left they had about a 50% employee turnover rate and were boasting it would be 60% in the year comming up. I feel sorry for anyone in Tranes management or sales, you can probably KYA goodbye, IR will want their people in there running the show. JMHO "...And once you're gone, you can't come back When you're out of the blue and into the black." Neil Young

Again, I am invoking Scopies Law, as anything from AIG is completely laughable. You would do well to read: http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Evolution "...And once you're gone, you can't come back When you're out of the blue and into the black." Neil Young