Andrewnewell

maybe I missed it. Its been almost a year, did anything ever come of this statement? has someone on here got some data about the claims of significant lift through 'atmo' or 'Tracking'? Im currently working on something and would greatly appreciate it someone could point me the the direction of some solid evidence. cheers, Andy

Cool man. One things for sure your super passionate about Atmo and all the work youve done to create something thats intersting, fun and creative. Fair play. cant knock it. Maybe there something lost in translation here and there but please dont think that what Im saying is that somone else has developed flying in the 'atmo' angles as a specific discipline. Its not that at all. what Im saying is that freeflying as a larger concept covers everything. thats all. obviously we could debate this for ever. Dude, I look forward to seeing the Evidence for lift. Not being sarcastic either... If its truely the case that lift generated in real terms, then great. Good stuff. Just being sceptical and thats all good. Maybe Im usng the word Fly in the wrong context. If the word fly can be used only when generating lift then everything else we do outside Atmo is falling?! Rocks droped from a hight 'fall'. are skydivers who are not doing Atmo to be catagorised in the same sense. I would dissagree but then again I dont have access to aeronautical engineers to set me straight. Dude, feel free to have the last word mate, its all cool. Its not like your out there shooting people. Its only skydiving right, just fun. Be lucky, btw, Ive moved on a little since 2004 mate. lol

I don’t think anyone’s out to discredit Atmonauti as a sub discipline at all, as much as anyone would discredit VRW or similar. I could be wrong but I think the issue is with angles being claimed in the name of Atmonauti and other Pseudo scientific claims that a flyer is generating lift in any real sense. Atmo is what it is, a fun way of flying that resolves issues with burbles in order to better aid flyer interaction. Strong opinions, Great, if Atmonauti is a solid concept then it should welcome the challenges and would be able to prove that the science behind its claims. However, what we seem to get time and time again is an emotive response with no real answer. If people didn’t question things where would we be? Still believing that light travels through ether? Flat earth theory? I agree in terms of Judging, people need certain guidelines in order to distinguish certain manoeuvres. Atmonauti is used by the FAI, IPC…. To help people understand what is going on in order to aid the judging process. Fair enough. There needs to be structure for competitions. But hang on, just because a bunch of officials need guidance, does that mean we need the same thing? I think Id rather ride my bike without the stabilisers on now that I’m a big boy. The tracking head up thing??? I wouldn’t say head up flying is very different from tracking at all. You’re still moving right? What about feet first ‘Atmo’ tracking. That’s in a sort of a head up orientation right? But its moving horizontally….? Flying is flying, in any orientation in any body position. Whether your moving straight down or at an angle or horizontal, your still moving from a to b. To be able to achieve this under control is part of the wider concept of freeflying developed by Olav and a small handful of other guys way back when. For competitions and personal training in specific angles / body positions, then Ok lets give stuff a label so we can make thing easy. But let’s not claim that someone invents the angle, or the position, that’s just silly. If the Atmonauts want recognition I suppose at the very most they can lay claim to the development, like you say, of a specific manoeuvre within the wider concept.

Wow man is this topic still going on?! Lol. There still seems to be some strong opinions about Atmo huh! Not discrediting Marco T’s contribution to the sport an all, but please lets get someone to do the math on this one and put the lift thing to bed! Atmo, Tracking, Angle flying, headown, head up, trace, carve and blah blah blah. Surely Freeflying covers the lot? The clue is in the name: Free – flying. It covers flying; moving from A to B in the air, in all aspects, orientations and all body positions. The concept of freeflying is massive in scope. When Olav with the help of others initially realised the concept and its potential, it literally opened up the sky’s for everyone. The sad fact is that any attempt to create something outside of this original concept is to deconstruct it and create a sub discipline of sorts. That is until we’re able to fly upwards through some sort of technological advancement in the future? I don’t doubt that Marco has helped and inspired many flyers out there and also helped to advance peoples understanding of what is personally achievable but claims on angles is pushing it. If by giving things names help people to do new things then so be it but flyers have to be careful not to forget the bigger picture. Getting stuck on one thing, RW for instance, (Cheeky swipe at the flatties) is like going for a meal in the world’s best Indian restaurant and only having the Popodoms! I say go wild and eat everything! Personally it kills me the way people are predisposed to give everything structure, put things in boxes, label angles etc….  Horrible pattern seeking animals we all are! Label what you want, but the last thing people need in the world is more boundaries! Wouldn’t it be nice if we all just let it all go?

Hi there, I’ve been trialling the new Drift 170 HD for the skydiving market and can honestly say that you have a very complete package with this camera. In fact I would say that this is the best all round camera for skydivers on the market, far exceeding standards set by the Go-Pro range. The camera has three settings SD, 720 and 1080 which allows for greater versatility in regards to the style of filming you would like to do. Even in SD mode the picture quality is great and does not suffer from any over exposure. One major improvement is the addition of a digital zoom feature, making the camera the weapon of choice for a variety of different disciplines. Whether its close up; headown sequentials or AFF where the flyer is in close proximity to other flyers, or filming 4 way, tandem, freefly or just good old fun jumping at a distance this camera does the business! The rotational lens (That changes the orientation of the footage) is another extremely neat addition and makes the camera perfect for both freefly filming (Upside down) and standard filming. The cameras natural home in my opinion is the top mount where it is out of the way and less prone to riser slap or other issues with rigging lines. The camera can be fixed with a standard 8 mm screw or a quick release bracket. The camera, whether fixed with the screw or the bracket is extremely low profile due to its flat design making it less prone to getting smashed and knocked on exit as with the Go-Pro style of camera. The robust design of the camera body with its smooth lines and tough outer shell means that even when things get a bit narley (E.g. Big Way exits) you can have compete confidence that the camera is still gonna be there on the top of your helmet doing its job and not endangering other flyers (Snags and collisions) by being in a low profile position. Another great feature is the display screen that allows for accurate adjustment in regards to camera set up (Not the Go-Pro guessing game with this camera) and the ability to brief and debrief on the ride to altitude. A massive bonus!!!!! This feature alone enables the drift to stand head and shoulders above its rivals in terms of functionality and ease of use. Its ergonomic design and user friendly format is a joy to use. With this camera you also get a wrist mounted remote control that can be synced with a number of units. The control itself has two buttons; on and off. Which means that if your not sure the camera is recording you simply keep pushing the record button. Having trialed this product for quite some time it has never let me down. Of course for competition I would recommend the addition of a mirror to the wrist strap or check from a third party as a SOP. Other features: Night mode (Not IR, image enhanced) Still photo mode Water proof Multitude of bracket / mount systems Seriously I could go on all day about this camera. To put it quite simply I believe that this camera is the most complete (In terms of video quality), functional and versatile action camera on the market and dare I say it, the only camera your ever gonna need for skydiving / action sports! Dudes, the days of bolting on handycam variant cameras to your helmet are well over. Whether you’re a team camera man at high level competition, fun jumper, instructor or tandem camera man, this is most defiantly the way ahead! Andy Newell Team camera man for Outbreak freefly and Volare http://www.darksidefreefly.com/member_cv.php?id=12 www.darksidefreefly.com

This has to be a wind up! Ill reply to this anyway...There might be people that actually think like this who need help. Olav is a freefly coach? His job is to coach freeflying, right?. OK so there are small differences with tunnel flying and skydiving I.e. skydiving: exits, tracking. With the tunnel: flying in a contained environment /tunnel tricks.... A part from those examples, The fundamentals of flight are pretty much the same. With this in mind the comment about skydivers becoming better tunnel flyers is inaccurate, good coaching in either sky or tunnel just leads to better flyers. I dont think its correct to determine the flying style of tunnel flyers as tunnel flying, it is just the right way to fly; both in the tunnel and in the sky. If this was not the case, then why do some many teams use the tunnel to refine skills. The numbers speak for themselves. I mentioned previously how tunnel flyers make the transition to skydiving a lot easier than the other way around; Well Apart from the so called 'style' of flyers who have tunnel experience, these people also have a better and more technical understanding about how their bodies work in the air, this combined with prolonged and condensed exposure to the aerial environment invariably leads them to master skydiving at an accelerated rate. Of course I am biased but it does seem pretty conclusive to me, that if you learn to fly in the tunnel, in a technical manner, you will be better off in the sky. I might be wrong but I dont see many good tunnel flyers, flying head up with their arms right back leaning forward into the wind. A common sight in the sky. If someone does teach stuff that reinforces or introduces this type of bad technique in the tunnel because 'this is the skydivers way of doing it' or ‘this is how I teach it in the sky’ for instance, then they are doing a good job of fleecing that student. Well thats a load of old shit isnt really. I've seen, and Im sure pretty sure Im not the only one, plenty of people with over a 1000 Jumps who are utter pants! There are lots of things to be taken into consideration when talking about peoples level of ability. Jump numbers is one of them, but its certainly not the be all and end all. what if it takes some dude 30 years to accumulate that amount of jumps? do you think they’re gonna be 'good'? What ever good means. I suppose being both a tunnel rat and a skydiver, Im qualified to comment on this one aswell. Personally I want to be able to do it all. mainly because flying is flying shit bust and to be good at it requires to be able to do it all. In my opinion there are now two definitive route to the same point (whatever that is changes for the individual i guess) its just that one of them is a lot straighter, and in most cases shorter. Don’t con your selves, learn in the tunnel and play in the sky.

Theoretically, you don't really need any tunnel time to be able to coach somebody. You just have to have a thorough understanding of what you are trying to accomplish …. most of coaching is recognizing what someone is doing wrong and telling them how to fix it…… Olav has been coaching for a very long time and I think if you look at the long list of bad-ass skydivers that have been through "the 1st school" I would say that he is more than qualified to coach someone in the tunnel.*** Does it? Is it really that simple. If so then why is Olav learning to fly in the tunnel? Surely footage of him re learning how to fly is proof that you need to be competent in that environment in order provided a good service. Let me put it this way, I see plenty of tunnel flyers taking to the sky with ease but few finding the reverse an easy transition. Just because you’re a very good skydiving coach doesn’t necessarily mean that you’re going to be a good tunnel coach. There’s no room for black magic in the wind tunnels.

Cash = Jumps at Eloy + 14ft tunnel + Ray Kubiak = good fast

Fair points about position and structure. Of course the beauty of bodyflight is that it is pretty much one of the only ways humans can explore the full potential of what their bodys are capable of, in a what could be described as a limitless environment (limitless dependant of cash flow! lol). I couldn’t agree with you more about the pack mentality in regards to set positioning as being the answer to everything .. It’s not necessarily a bad thing however, as set positions do allow people to create a start point from which they can then go on and to learn to fully explore their full capabilities…. This approach is something I’m very keen on exploiting, in fact my whole coaching philosophy is based a foundationary positional method. Just to clarify and I’m sure your fully aware, I have had instruction from a great number of world class flyers both in and out of tunnels, including Olav and all though I don’t share a similar philosophy with Olav I will say that I learned many things from him. My take on the IBA: The IBA system is what I consider to be a great progressive structure; it is without a doubt logical and well thought out system that is also flexible enough for coaches to attach their own philosophy onto it. Don’t get me wrong, it is by far the be all and end all of bodyflying but it does act as a great skeletal frame work on which a coach can choose to hang their own techniques To answer your points about Piers. Well apart from being a good friend of mine I happen to think that Piers brings up many good points on a regular basis. I don’t think jumping to his defence is something that I regularly have to do and I’m sure Piers has thick enough skin to endure some public banter without my moral support. As you might have guessed, my initial interest in this topic was based on the fact that piers had made a post about someone we both know. Now despite the fact that the initial posts are somewhat silly in nature and as with most of ‘Fedykins’ posts being in the same vein (to create controversy no doubt) I tend to take most of his comments on public forums with a pinch of salt. Despite the heresy and subsequent outrage etc… This topic has generated a discussion on when are people ready to coach? Can’t we take this positive aspect away from the initial trivia and forum bashing? OK so the target in this case is a very well respected skydiver, but hey, I see plenty of very talented skydivers Jump in the tunnel all the time that are not at the level where they are, what I consider to be, coaching at a reasonable standard. I guess you could put all of this down to perception, but if there really is no weight in this argument the why are there things like the IBA coaches ‘rating’ out there.? To finish on your final point about Fedykin; Yes he is on a public forum and is as open to scrutiny and attack as is anyone else. I say crack on but I doubt your gonna get a swing on his botheredomitter and all this really does is create more negativity.

Despite the negativity surrounding the original post, all of this does raise a valid point. When is someone ready to coach? Obviously, it not likely the answer will be black and white, as there are many different coaches all at different levels and all using different styles. I can only comment on the IBA system to which I subscribe. It’s has a good solid structure and sets definitive bench marks for students to aim for. As all good coaches know, the ability to follow a structured program is not the be all and end all of being a good coach. In my humble opinion I would say a good tunnel / skydiving coach needs a few basic things to provide a good service. To give honest feed back in such a way as to not create barriers in the students progression. To follow or at least utilise tried and tested systems that work and are above all else safe! To follow the rules of the tunnel. Obviously this is Paramount in order to keep things safe. In IBA tunnels, it is the instructors job to keep practice safe, but a good coach should be aware of the rules helping the instructor to maintain a controlled environment. To be able to communicate well with the student, instructor and driver To be able to demonstrate both good and bad practice and to be able to breakdown technique. I.e. slowing down transitions… The last point is particularly relevant as I believe this is what ‘Fedykin’ is basing his argument on. Despite the initial posts being slightly puerile in nature, they have raised some relevant points. With this in mind, I suggest that this topic is locked as it is obviously far too personal in nature for any real good to come from it and a new topic started to better explore the question; when are people ready to be coaches?….

Impresive stuff! well done to all the guys and girls that competed. Nice to see a Brit team up there, mixing it up!!! well in Outbreak V.

As a former student, I can safely say that coaching with these guys is money well spent! Babylon have bags of experience in coaching all aspects of freeflying. Im sure they will be able to provide you with what you need. Top notch professional sports coaching! enjoy! safe flights.

Hi there again, Yes as NW has stated it is difficult to appreciate the trajectory from most of the photos you have provided.Im not sure a couple of feet of ribbon is that great of an indicator of trajectory and these photos do little to disprove what has been covered by myself and NW. Maybe you can see something I can’t, like you say people can make their own minds up about that. Oh and I do agree with your statement about efficiency, the faster we go the flatter the trajectory and subsequent smoke trail. So yes, at a steep enough angles the Atmo (taken from the diagram) model would become correct however flying in either that type of angle or at that speed isn’t, like you say, what Atmo is about really. Nope I am saying when in either of the standard Atmo body posititions (belly, back), with the head being the lowest point, air would certainly hitting that first. Why? Well that’s because it is the lowest point and the relative wind is still coming from below albeit at a slight angle. I agree an amount is deflected over the top of the head but the majority of it is being deflected by the underside of the flyer. The relative wind is not coming in line with the flyer as on the Atmo diagrams, It is still much more similar to the adjoining diagram explaining tracking. the main difference is that the head is lower, creating an anchor point and leading edge, this obviously shifts the Cof G and enables more efficent flight. The smoke photos show the trajectory and therefore show the where the relative wind is coming from, if you look at most atmo flyers the head is the lowest point and therefore does act as the leading edge, however the rest of the torso and body, in most cases is relatively flat in comparison and creates angular deflection. This is most defiantly a personal thing, as we are all different sizes and weights so I guess everyone has to find their own unique angle and body position for maximum efficiency. I will agree that I believe the angle of 45 deg to be the most efficent for horizontal flight as far as an unaided flyer is concerned. Ive done a fair bit, but Thaks for the offer, never too old to learn something new. Right, guys, this is my last post on the subject as I feel Im just gonna be going round in circles if I continue. Ive certainly got nowt else to add. I would say that despite the silliness here and there, the topic has made me question things in a different light and has to some extent altered my views in regards to Atmo and other forms of Angled flight. So thanks for the enlightenment. have safe flights.

Thats a pretty good example emotional response?Slightly Biased me thinks? Dude, Chill. this particular post is opening peoples minds. from which ever side of the table your sitting on, its surely better to discuss these things so that we can learn more about Atmonauti??

Hi Mciocca, Thanks for posting the 'Efficent' flight pictures. Funnily enough all of them have been taken above or below the formation and therefore do not accurately show that the flyers in these photos are any more efficient than the flyers in the pictures I posted. Please post some similar pictures taken from the side where we can compare the angle of the flyer to the trajectory highlighted by the smoke trail and the horizon. That would be what I consider a good counter argument. Im thinking they’re gonna be few and far between? Hmmm, I thought that both myself and NWpoul have shown with our last few posts that the relative wind in most cases is still coming from below albeit at a slight angle. Without a doubt the exploration of Angled flight and Atmonauti is only beneficial. I would say however That growing tired of throwing time and money at the difficult forms is not a good reason to move on to angled flight. I guess its a personal thing but I would probably put that down to a lack of perseverance. Freeflying is exactly what its says and is a very simple concept. A flyer is free to fly in any angle, position or orientation. The term is broad and encompasses many different aspects of bodyflight, including Atmonauti. The term freeflying is another term for 'the bigger picture'. Anyways call it what you will, its just a name. I think you mean explanation, but again youd be wrong about gaining a better understanding of what is actually going on. Ask your self, are we that accurately calibrated? not really. do we suffer from emotional responses? I'd say so. Both of these human elements lead me to one conclusion, we are biased! You obviously have a great amount of passion for the discipline which I have great respect for. personally It's important for me to remember not to let my own passion for the sport cloud my judgement. This is what is important to me.

Thankyou very much for better illustrating my point with your photo edit by the way. As you have shown, this is very different to the atmo diagram. Im sorry but I am unable to counter any argument based on your calculations as I am uneducated in this particular feild. thanks for the input though.

Hi Solovinofly, I didnt know that. Interesting stuff. Is it just me or does that make no sense. Im sorry I dont have a degree in physics or anything but from what I can gather you are saying that you need lift inorder to get horizontal speed? right. well OK, how do you explain fast horizontal movement in the headown position, is the headown flyer creating lift to make horizontal movement?

Yes I agree, Lift could be produced. If only in small measures. Dependant on the angle of the body I would agree that, yes, it is defiantly possible for the body to meet the relative wind as a wing does But this would require either a steep angle or faster forward movement. I dont deny its possible though. I can also see your comparison between the asymmetrical wing profile and the Atmo position and how in both cases higher pressure is created at the bend resulting in a slower decent rate. Yeah, and certainly not for us. But we all give it a good go. I would say however due to issues with drag (clothing etc...), shape, aerodynamic deformities and weight, that there are massive differences in efficiency when you compare a human body to an airfoil. hence why we dont travel as far in comparisson, Obviously. If we are flying then in the big scheme of things were extremely inefficient at doing so. Like Fedykin commented, even calling it a glide would take a stretch of the imagination. I think That the atmo angles do allow for a pretty reasonable amount of flight given our intrinsic inefficiencies.

Hello everybody. Wow lots of debate over this subject. Allow me to furnish you guys with my own little theory about atmo flight and the whole lift Vs deflection argument….. I personally feel that despite the fact that we are descending rapidly when doing any type of skydiving, certain amounts of lift can be generated. However this is merely a by product angled flight (Flight used in the romantic terms ) and is not the overriding factor that allows us to cover great distances. I think we can better understand what is happening if we look closer at a flyers trajectory. Now I don’t have a scientific background or understanding in advanced fluid dynamics so don’t expect and links to NASA websites backing this up. Though I do intend to provide some photographic evidence that supports my theory. And by the way, That’s it, just a theory not a statement! OK lets start with the Atmo diagram: The diagram clearly shows that the angle of the flyers runs parallel with the line of trajectory. If this is correct then yes, the leading edge of the body is the top of the head and shoulders. It is now easy to make comparisons with the cross section of the flyer and an airfoil even though there are massively contentious issues in aerodynamic efficiency and drag to consider. Anyways, In this case the burble would be coming off the toes in the line of trajectory. However this is not really possible in that particular orientation, to achieve this a flyer would have to be flying in a much steeper angle or be propelled by some form of engine etc…. Where’s the proof? Well let’s look at the next attachment. X flyers smoke atmo: Yes it is just a moment in time, but given the calibre of the flyers on the photo, Im confident that they pretty much remained in these angles throughout the dive. The atmo with smoke photo taken from the Xfest clearly shows the smoke trails of the flyers following a much steeper line than the orientation of the body. Surely this smoke trail is a true indication of the line of trajectory?????? Even if we look at the most efficient flyer in the photo, top forward flyer, there is still a difference in the angle of his body and the line of his trajectory. If you think its just this photo please feel free to check out other smoke atmo photos taken from the side, Im sure that you will see a similar visual each time. If this is correct, then Isn’t it reasonable to assume that given the trajectory and the body position a large proportion of the relative wind is hitting the underside of the flyers body? Not the leading edge of the head and shoulders. It makes more sense to me to suggest that a large proportion of the relative wind still comes from below the flyer and is then trapped for an instance creating an area of high pressure, slowing the fall rate. It then continues on the path of deflection, subsequently initiating forward drive. Taking all of this into account, I find the Atmo diagram slightly misleading in its visual explanation of technical Atmonauti flight. In fact I would say that the comparative tracking diagram still holds true for atmo in regards to trajectory, if the flyers were rotated ever so slightly and the body position was somewhat different, wider with the arse up, and with the head being lower. That’s about it. While I’m on the subject, the atmo body position itself. I think a lot of the stuff regarding what it feels like can simply be put down to the body position. I would imagine that the head being lower in Atmo does a few things that classic flat tracking does not. If flown in a steeper angle it will burble out the neck and chest area, decreasing a flyers surface area at the leading edge resulting in more vertical speed and more forward drive. Also the burble effect will create the feeling of lighter pressure on the chest, I.e. the floating sensation. Also by having the head low allows for the wind to travel over the top slightly probably adding to a small amount of lift, and certainly creating an area of high pressure between the neck and the yoke (rig lift explained). The head position, steeper angle and the dearched position would most probably lead to the aforementioned floaty Atmo sensations. Anyways. My personal conclusions….. •Lift? Probably •Angular deflection? Most definatley •Lift the initiating or overriding factor? Probably not. •A good crack? Without a doubt!!!! Final word: Though I obviously have differing technical views I still have a lot of respect for Marco and Gi. They have done a lot to shed light on what was a pretty grey area of freeflying and made it widely accessible for everyone. Cheers guys. Have fun, stay safe.

Hi Gi, wrong guy BTW. Yes I do have a reservations about the technical side of Atmonauti flight. So what! Its out there, people fly it and long may they enjoy doing it. Im not going out of my way to stop anyone! Im not against you guys, nor am I trying to take bread from your table. I ahve differance of opinion that does lean towards Pier's statments, for sure. Again so what, send along the thought police why dont you. Im not going to go into the who said what and when saga but if youd like to continue please feel free to PM me about it if you want. I dont wish this particular borathon to lapse into another forum and detract from the initial question. as I said on face book, I respect what you guys have achieved and I wish you goood flights. All the very best, A

Cheers fellas. will check it out. A

Hi everyone, was wondering if anyone out there knows of any manufacture that is producing roll cages for the new range of HD sony camcorders?

Nice one guys! Like the twists, Inspiring stuff.

Wicked times in Russia. The comp was a tight one with the frenchys pulling ahead of Outbreak to take Gold with a with a kick ass compulsory set (15 points) and keeping it together to the last round. the french team also displayed a clean style in the free routine with some nice twists. Nice one guys. Outbreak did their thing trying to close the gap on the french but falling behind by .3 to take the silver. another battle was between Norway and the dutch! Tora tora were busting out some sweet free rounds which had them in first place round 1. very impressive for their first international! Definately a force to be reconed with in the future!! Norway displayed some of what I thought was the fastest and most complex flying in the competition. Norways free routine was fast and clean with a super nice flow. a last minute addition of a extremely complex sequence in the last free round helped Norway to edge ahead of the dutch to take the bronze. the level continues to rise. looking forward to see what the freeflyers get up to in 2008! Quick shout out to the Bad Lieutenants. These boys represented! Well in guys. looking strong! Another team to look out for in the future.

Yeah man, Those suits crack me up. Like little angels! Ahhhhh!.......Urrgghhh! Yeah one of the GB teams as sacked it off! Outbreak, the Bad Lieutennants and Hysteria will be turning up. Its going to be wild!