captainpooby

I posted a link this morning to a moving presentation about the people who were killed and those who gave their lives trying to save them on 9/11. The thread degenrated quickly and out of respect for the victims and the heroes of that day I deleted my original post. Anyone who would like the link to see the presentation, please send me an IM. Thank you, have a nice day.

Peter Jennings and Mike Wallace Agree Reporters First, Americans Second In a future war involving U.S. soldiers what would a TV reporter do if he learned the enemy troops with which he was traveling were about to launch a surprise attack on an American unit? That's just the question Harvard University professor Charles Ogletree Jr, as moderator of PBS' Ethics in America series, posed to ABC anchor Peter Jennings and 60 Minutes correspondent Mike Wallace. Both agreed getting ambush footage for the evening news would come before warning the U.S. troops. For the March 7 installment on battlefield ethics Ogletree set up a theoretical war between the North Kosanese and the U.S.-supported South Kosanese. At first Jennings responded: "If I was with a North Kosanese unit that came upon Americans, I think I personally would do what I could to warn the Americans." Wallace countered that other reporters, including himself, "would regard it simply as another story that they are there to cover." Jennings' position bewildered Wallace: "I'm a little bit of a loss to understand why, because you are an American, you would not have covered that story." "Don't you have a higher duty as an American citizen to do all you can to save the lives of soldiers rather than this journalistic ethic of reporting fact?" Ogletree asked. Without hesitating Wallace responded: "No, you don't have higher duty... you're a reporter." This convinces Jennings, who concedes, "I think he's right too, I chickened out." Ogletree turns to Brent Scrowcroft, now the National Security Adviser, who argues "you're Americans first, and you're journalists second." Wallace is mystified by the concept, wondering "what in the world is wrong with photographing this attack by North Kosanese on American soldiers?" Retired General William Westmoreland then points out that "it would be repugnant to the American listening public to see on film an ambush of an American platoon by our national enemy." A few minutes later Ogletree notes the "venomous reaction" from George Connell, a Marine Corps Colonel. "I feel utter contempt. Two days later they're both walking off my hilltop, they're two hundred yards away and they get ambushed. And they're lying there wounded. And they're going to expect I'm going to send Marines up there to get them. They're just journalists, they're not Americans." Wallace and Jennings agree, "it's a fair reaction." The discussion concludes as Connell says: "But I'll do it. And that's what makes me so contemptuous of them. And Marines will die, going to get a couple of journalists." From the Media Research Center at: http://secure.mediaresearch.org/news/terrorism/terrorismarchive.html#Americans%20First

There is a firearms discussion board I frequent www.ar15.com that has an "alter ego" url just for this purpose. You can also get to it at www.jobrelatedstuff.com It has several others too. Perhaps DZ.com could get something like this?

Um, no, you're the embodiment of true altruism. Want a list of countries that need your help next? Mmmmmmmmmkay. Syria?

The militia and the current NG are considered to be the same thing. They are both composed of citizen soldiers whose main mission is to defend the borders of the country. The NG is just the modernized and, supposedly, better trained version of the old militia necessitated by the increasing complexity of the modern battlefield. Perhaps I should clarify or you should read the whole of my post. The "militia" I referred to was the one mentioned in the second amendment. At that time there was no NG.

North Korea. We cant afford to piss off China right now. We need to use their thumb on NK.

I think if he reconizes you at the airport, you win. You're still a doofus even if you win.

Sometimes freedom of speech is abused too, inciting hatred and violence, but that doesn't mean that the appropriate solution is to revoke the 1st Amendment and ban free speech. I'm not suggesting we revoke the 2d Amendment. I'm suggesting we adhere to it, including the often-ignored ending. See the problem here is reading comprehension. Notice the semi-colon, which was included in the original text but that has been lost over time. These are two separate statements. That there should be a well regulated militia (national guard) AND that the RIGHT of the PEOPLE to KEEP and BEAR arms shall not be INFRINGED. The first part is often mis-interpreted to be the justification for the latter. However, by reviewing the Federalist Papers, you'll find that was not the intended interpretation. It was not intended that ONLY the militia have weapons. It was intended that there be a militia AND that individuals have the right to keep and bear arms. Sorry, the militia is not the NG. "Who are the militia? Are they not ourselves? Is it feared, then, that we shall turn our arms each man gainst his own bosom. Congress have no power to disarm the militia. Their swords, and every other terrible implement of the soldier, are the birthright of an American...[T]he unlimited power of the sword is not in the hands of either the federal or state governments, but, where I trust in God it will ever remain, in the hands of the people." -- Tenche Coxe, The Pennsylvania Gazette (February 20, 1788) The national guard was not created until more than 100 years later. "The National Guard Bureau dates back to the turn of the century. After the Spanish-American war of 1898 which demonstrated weaknesses in the militia, as well as in the entire United States military. Secretary of War Elihu Root initiated a program of reform and reorganization in the military establishment. The impetus for reform led to the Militia Act of 1903, better known as the Dick Act. "

Vern's looking pretty good on the pond these days but he's been wet. Jackie's at the entertaining stage. Swoop comp this sunday should be good.

You have some numbers to back up your assertion that tandem is the most dangerous type of skydiving? In the millions and millions of tandem skydives made all over the world the total fatalities number very few, maybe fifty. AND they happen two at a time so you have 25 or so fatal incidents since tandem skydiving was invented. Compare that to the fatality rate of skydiving in the US. About thirty fatalities per year over a couple million skydives. Sorry, your claim does hold water. Sorry about the hijack.

Iraq behind the cameras: a different reality By TARA COPP Scripps Howard News Service December 05, 2003 BAGHDAD, Iraq - It's a little-known footnote in postwar Iraq that an unassuming Army Civil Affairs captain named Kent Lindner has a bevy of blushing female fans. Every time Lindner checks in on the group of young, deaf Iraqi seamstresses at their factory here, the women swarm him with admiration. "I love you!" one of them writes in the dust on Lindner's SUV. Such small-time adoration is not the stuff of headlines against the backdrop of a country painfully and often violently evolving from war. So on this day, when Lindner and his fellow soldiers are cheered as they fire the deaf workers' boss, a woman who has been locking the seamstresses in closets, holding their pay and beating them, the lack of TV cameras on hand is no surprise. But later that night, mortars hit nearby. Cameras are rolling, and 15 minutes later folks back home instead see another news clip of Baghdad's latest violence. It's a soda-straw view that frustrates soldiers, like those in Lindner's Civil Affairs unit, who are slowly trying to stitch together the peace while the final stages of the war play out on television. "We've got a lot of good things going on, but when I went home (on leave), people were just like 'We never hear that stuff,' " said Civil Affairs Pvt. Amy Schroeder. "That's what makes the families worry." What Iraq looks like on TV, and what Iraq is like for the 130,000 troops living here, sometimes feels like two different realities. That's especially true for the Army's Civil Affairs soldiers, reservists who often serve as civil engineers in their "real life" jobs, and who are here working in Iraq's schools, hospitals and factories. There are thousands of Civil Affairs soldiers in Iraq, and their daily missions take them into all regions of the country, from the water plants in Basra to the south, to canning factories up north in Irbil. "Our stories aren't the sexiest," says the 432nd Civil Affairs Brigade commander, Gary Beard. "But what we do will build the success of this country." For the soldiers, the morning typically starts inside their compounds with a breakfast of coffee and thick, rubbery bacon substitute from one of the contractor dining halls, or sometimes just a cigarette and a Coke. It's cold now, but the sun is still white-bright, so most still wear hats or sunglasses. Outside the compounds, Iraqis who have become full-time employees wait to get their IDs checked. The regulars know the MPs by name, and the soldiers and Iraqis exchange the same kind of morning greetings heard at job sites everywhere. "Amin! What's up, man?" the 352nd Civil Affairs commander, Maj. Michael Maguire, says to contractor Amin Ahmed. The Iraqi businessman works with vendors in the city to get equipment for Maguire's men. Over the months, a bond has formed. When Ahmed was worried about car bombs hurting his daughter at school, Maguire helped get heavy barbed wire to wrap around the school's perimeter. With their translator ready to go, Lindner and 352nd Lt. Col. Jim Otwell don bulletproof vests and Kevlar helmets and drive out of the compound to visit the state-run sewing factory for deaf Iraqis. "We want to find out what your working conditions are, anything that we can do to help you," Otwell tells the young women at the factory. He speaks in English slowly, for the benefit of an Arabic translator, who then turns to an Arabic-speaking sign-language translator to sign Otwell's questions to the seamstresses. The girls' hands start flying as they tell Otwell about their hated boss. "She would beat us, and pull our hair!" signs Nadia Jabar. "What about working conditions ... do you have hearing aids? Books you can read?" Otwell asks. "Nothing!" they sign back. Otwell and Lindner tour the building, which is cold and dusty. But inside several of the rooms are old products they can sell - hundreds of Iraqi flags they've sewn, dresses and pillowcases. Already the team has arranged for the factory to produce all the uniforms for Iraq's civil defense forces, and piles of cut brown pant legs line the floor. Now the workers are getting $60 a month, part of which is spent on housing them at the factory. Otwell and Lindner promise to come back soon, and ask the workers to make a list of things that they really need, so maybe next year the factory can get some upgrades. On the way out, the workers jump and clap, as Lindner and Otwell escort the old boss - who had come back to the factory despite a previous arrest by Iraqi police for beating the workers - away from the building. Across town, another mission is under way. "Welcome, welcome to our school," chants a line of 7-year-old girls in Arabic at the Abu Ghuraib Primary School, which the 490th Civil Affairs Battalion took under its wing to restore after it was badly looted postwar. The now-bright-blue school has new equipment and new electrical wiring that feeds bright bulbs by the teachers' blackboards. As each soldier walks through the entrance to the official ribbon-cutting, the girls chant louder in Arabic, "Thank you, thank you, thank you." Inside, headmistress Ibistam Mahdi cuts a yellow ribbon, and thanks the men through a translator. "For the 350 girls here, it is a lot better," Mahdi says. Despite the violent news images seen most often at home, these soldiers say it's more common to see boys selling water jugs of gasoline to passing cars than it is to see a roadside bomb. In the cities, the convoys pass through marketplaces where women walk, arm in arm, to shop for trendy beaded skirts that sparkle in the sun. They pass blocks of electronics stores where men carry home boxes of MP3 players and satellite TV dishes. On busier streets, hundreds of roadside "money exchanges," where Iraqis trade dollars for dinars, pop up like lemonade stands. "Oh, I'm an Ali Baba now," says Staff Sgt. Justin Lockhart to a squirming 11-year-old Iraqi boy named Aaday. Aaday has the sergeant's handcuffs and is busy playfully locking Lockhart up. "It sounds bad, but I try and play with the kids as much as possible," says Lockhart, of the 422nd Civil Affairs Battalion. "It's safer with them around. The only times I'm scared are when there are kids around us, and they leave. Or when adults come get them - it's right after that that we leave a place," because it may signal a coming attack, he said. Even in Fallujah, a city 30 miles west of Baghdad that in the last month has become characterized as one of the more hostile cities in Iraq because of recent attacks, Civil Affairs teams still make daily trips out of their compound to help get the city's day-to-day needs functioning. And the men and women stationed there say it's just not as violent as it looks. "I go out every day," says 432nd Civil Affairs Battalion Sgt. Bill Belongea. "I have not had to raise my weapon yet. It's not as bad as the media portrays it." On another mission in Baghdad, soldiers from the 352nd Civil Affairs command pull up to the Ministry of Labor and Social Services to follow up on victims of a recent police-station bombing. By the gate, hundreds of needy Iraqis line up for welfare payments. The soldiers of the 352nd have stopped in to pick up food and clothing for a family of 26. The family members survived the attack on the Adamiyah Police Station, but the explosion destroyed their apartments. "All they have left is what they pulled out of the rubble," says Capt. Chuck Timney. "These people could have a long wait for a new home, so we're going to try and make it as comfortable as possible." As the soldiers wait, news of a nearby roadside bomb comes in through the static on the Humvee's radio. A command post dispatches rescue helicopters, and a few minutes later two Black Hawks buzz past. Maj. Jeff McKone is listening in the Humvee's front seat, and his reaction is one of relief - that this particular bombing is not one he has to worry about. He continues to snack on an MRE through the dispatches, and then hops down from the Humvee to help load boxes for the family. As the soldiers arrive at the displaced family's temporary quarters, the parents and children rush out to open the gate and help carry the packages. Both Timney and Capt. Mike Self, who has brought colored paper and pens sent by his church back home for the kids, check specifically on the youngest child. The toddler stopped speaking or moving after the car bomb. Although still mostly listless in her mother's arms, the girl wails during this visit. It's the first noise they've heard from her, and it's a sign of relief for the soldiers, who have clearly bonded with the family. As they say their goodbyes, the soldiers look happy, accomplished. "If you can't feel good about today," McKone says, "then you shouldn't be here." http://www.knoxstudio.com/shns/story.cfm?pk=IRAQ-REALITY-12-05-03&cat=II This cant be possible. Arent we an evil bunch of conquerors?

I'm sure you will get to see it. Bob Clarke is making a movie about the "Pond Warriors" and its pretty funny.

Hammers and saws build houses!(not in florida...its almost impossible to get ahouse built in Fl.) Man I'm smart too!!!!!!

"Yes. Had Marie been covering that, I know that she would do everything in her power to talk them out of it" Yes, of course she would be talking her palestinian terrorist mastermind friend out of attacking. Did I mention I was sorry about her eye?

Calling 20% of colonists MOST people is hardly a "small factual error". You are welcome to leave the thread if you cant back up your arguments or points with facts and yes, your argument is invalid.

Ball State: "About twenty percent of Americans remained loyal to England, forty percent chose to be neutral, and forty percent supported independence." As for funding from France, it wasn't easy. Here's what you said:" Most colonists wanted to remain British subjects. " Twenty percent is hardly MOST colonists. And then ONE GUY, Ben Franklin goes to France and convinces them? You say it wasnt easy? Your link says otherwise. Shit. I'm from Canada, dont you guys know your own history? As far as France, easy or not they hopped on board. Both your statements fail the test.

I think your post is very intelligent and objective. Me personally, I would have taken out the guy with the SAM regardless of the outcome. The DHL guys arent even part of the shit. At the very least I wouldnt have filmed it if I wanted to save my ass.

Cool, now I get to play the definition game. Patriot: "one who loves his or her country and supports its authority and interests." The colonists were patriots, the Palestinians are patriots, Saddam's remaining supporters are patriots. The fact is, the American Revolution was initially unpopular on both sides of the Atlantic. Most colonists wanted to remain British subjects. Really? Facts to support your claim? It apparently wasnt hard to raise an army and get the french to step on board. Your comment about the Pallies and saddam supporters doesnt even deserve an intelligent reply.

Sorry. I guess you missed history class. They were known as patriots AT THE TIME IT HAPPENED not later. " The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants. It is it's natural manure." Thomas Jefferson.

A journalist documents the events occuring in the world. I'm sorry if that means looking at things from the perspective of enemies of the United States, but it needs to be done. Those who believe that the media is right in filming one side of an engagement but wrong in filming the other are hypocrites. PS: Who exactly is this French reporter committing or almost committing treason against? hypocrite \Hyp"o*crite\, n. [F., fr. L. hypocrita, Gr. ? one who plays a part on the stage, a dissembler, feigner. See Hypocrisy.] One who plays a part; especially, one who, for the purpose of winning approbation of favor, puts on a fair outside seeming; one who feigns to be other and better than he is; a false pretender to virtue or piety; one who simulates virtue or piety. hypocrite n : a person who professes beliefs and opinions that they do not hold hypocrite one who puts on a mask and feigns himself to be what he is not; a dissembler in religion. Our Lord severely rebuked the scribes and Pharisees for their hypocrisy (Matt. 6:2, 5, 16). "The hypocrite's hope shall perish" (Job 8:13). The Hebrew word here rendered "hypocrite" rather means the "godless" or "profane," as it is rendered in Jer. 23:11, i.e., polluted with crimes. Sorry, dont see any any hypocrisy here. And I was referring my treason remark to the Time reporter. edited to add: I can see some hipocrisy on the journalists part.

Is it OK for American journalists to film attacks on Iraqis? The point is that the media furthers the enemies cause by filming and broadcasting their attacks. Its giving "aid" and comfort to the enemy. Borderline treason.

She's friends with Bassam Abu-Sharif, a Palestinian who has since masterminded several terrorist attacks. She's friends with him? Apparently she has lost her journalistic objectivity. Sorry about her eye.

Has anyone heard of this little "detail" about the incident? It should be a major outrage! It isnt just the french. Its our guys too. I think a trip to Gitmo is in order. http://www.time.com/time/covers/1101031215/story.html

Thats nothing. An Israeli pilot landed this. http://www.usrcjc.org/photogallery/F15Wing/F15Wing1[1].jpg http://www.usrcjc.org/photogallery/F15Wing/F15Wing2[1].jpg

This is the info I have. "Aircraft was hit at 8000 FT, lost ALL hydraulics and therefore had no flight controls, actually did a missed approach using only engine thrust and eventually (after about 16mins) landed heavily on runway 33L at Baghdad. This was fortunate because with no steering the aircraft veered of the runway to the left, had they landed on 33R veering to the left would have taken them straight into the fire station. The aircraft then travelled about 600 metres through soft sand taking out a razor wire fence in the process, see LH engine pic, and came to rest almost at the bottom of the sloping area between the runway and a taxiway. All three crew evacuated safely down the second slide, the first one tore on the razor wire." "The point of entry pics show where a projectile entered Tank 1A, which was full of fuel, and, after it ignited, proceeded to burn away at the spar. The fuel tank ribs in the area directly in front of the O/B flap are burnt almost 50% through. The crew obviously did a fantastic job in getting the aircraft back on to the ground and one can only assume that it was most fortunate that they were not aware of the state of the wing as they could not see it from the cockpit."