chemist

Some years back a lady from the Seattle area, who was an alcoholic, developed a moderation recovery program. Unfortunately, the program lost support when she relapsed and committed DUI homicide. You left out a pretty important piece of information. She quit moderation management for AA, and after 2 months of AA she committed the DUI homicide. Pesky facts.

There is no track record because AA does not record outcomes, they are not a professional organization, they don't change their their treatment methods in accordance with results since they don't record data nor do they subject their steps to criticism or peer scientific review. I don't need to invent anything new because their is already a plethora of alternative options for addiction treatment. SMART recovery is one example of a very well regarded and respected source of help for those struggling with addiction.

AA/NA are self-contained programs of recovery. If you want to use them then do so. If not, no problem, it is the choice of the individual. If your other path does not work for you then come back or try AA/NA. All that is required is a desire to remain sober through abstinence. There is no prejudice. Not true, the force is rampant and covert, i.e. you don't 'have' to do AA but if not we'll take your kids, put you in jail or take your livelihood etc... So ya they don't HAVE to do it but it's still force, even a fool could understand that.

You owe me a new irony meter. You could say the same thing about 12 steppers!! AA won't even respect alternative programs of total abstinence leave alone alternative programs of moderation.

THIS

you sound pretty liberal to me

wise words spoken from the 15 jump wonder

No need to get aggressive, I started this thread half serious.

Doctors have it a lot easier. I don't have to have a girls butt directly up against my crotch.

Yes, that's exactly what the waiver is designed to cover. We'll never know for sure what exactly its designed to cover

I think the waiver make passengers sign off that the tandem master might touch you inappropriately (I.e. boner) and you can't sue for sexual harassment...

Nah that doesn't matter it could still happen no matter how many times you get laid by attractive women. I'm just sayin' statistically it probably happens once per 500 jumps or so and we just never hear about it

Yea I tried really hard not to make this thread sound creepy. No pun intended.

So I've been thinking about this because I've observed that a good 50% of tandem female students are like 8's, 9's, and 10's. I don't get how such a high proportion of chicks that try skydiving are so hot!? When the rate of 8-10's in the general public is

Stupid statement. Moderate drinking is not healthier, than abstinence. An abstinent liver is a healthier liver, period. However, moderate consumption of wine (not alcohol in general), has antioxidants that are beneficial to the cardiac muscle. But just because something simply has antioxidants, is not a reason to use it; even in moderation. If I never drink alcohol, but you consume 1-2 glasses of wine per day, every day, my liver will look much better in autopsy, period. Alcohol is shit... and if those beneficial properties are desired, other nutrients can provide the same benefits. You're free to abstain from alcohol if that is your preference. However, you don't have the scientific or moral authority to prohibit someone from drinking alcohol responsibly and moderately. Lots of things that make us happy like skydiving can be hazardous or cause damage to our bodies, much more so than moderate consumption of alcohol. Once you start banning others from alcohol, what's to stop others from banning you from skydiving? In Qatar if you get a drunk and disorderly you lose your permit to buy and drink alcohol. In America, if you get a drunk and disorderly (maybe a couple we're still pretty liberal) you get called and alcoholic and are told alcoholics cannot drink moderately. It is a political agenda using medical terms to achieve the same end, and that is prohibition. Granted, some people really cannot drink moderately, I have seen full out alcoholics. What really grinds my gears is when they start preaching their nonsensical gibbrish to those who've successfully achieved good outcomes with other programs. EDIT: and I just read your posts supporting the legalization of marijuana in the Gagan Gupta thread. righttt, so you're for that but adamant about prohibition? It seems like you are the almighty OZ who gets to decide which chemicals are appropriate and for whom.

this is very interesting. I can really relate to where this study is going, I feel like the stress and fear is exactly the same jump after jump even though I may be managing/dealing with it better.

^ahh yes I have read about that, and have seen it in college

I agree. The problem is dimensional.

A lot of people do achieve success with moderation. Some people like the 'toughen up approach' it's empowering for them, it works and that's great but it's not for everyone. Why do you want to give autonomy the individual who says ritalin helped their ADD, but you won't give the autonomy to someone who succeeded with moderation? It worked for them so why can't they have self-determination?

Mantra #1 from skydiving instructor's school: If the student failed to learn, it's because the instructor failed to teach Wendy P. and the ignorant fail to accept facts that conflict with their own agenda. Moderate drinking is healthier than abstinence, study after study show the health benefits of moderate wine consumption.

Abstinence and moderate drinking is the KEY issue that divides the disease theorists and those who do not believe it is a disease. Those like me who do not believe addiction is a disease believe that moderate drinking can be learned. There is a lot of data of high success rates and advantages to moderation, some people choose to ignore it and others choose to gain an understanding of it.

yes, because a tortilla is a bread.

A gene is not going to change my position on moderate drinking.

but skin cancer can be observed. I cannot observe a person's 'desire' to drink alcohol because that is a subjective experience. Whereas I can observe skin cancer under a microscope.

no because the operational definition of a peanut butter and jelly sandwich is peanut butter and jelly on two pieces of bread. NOT peanut butter and jelly wrapped in a tortilla