No use of radio

[antibac 0]

Hey!

I was just wondering why some DZs decides not to use radios? My DZ doesn't, and I understand that you can learn more by thinking on your own, but I have been having trouble with flaring before landing (also landing pattern, but I have gotten better at this), and also had a small injury in my back because of this. I think I would be one of the students that would benefit from a little radio help during landing.

Do most DZ use radios, or is it common not to?

[Marcus93 0]

I havent been jumping long enough to know the answers to your questions, however i found when i was first trying to stick landings and run them off if i glanced to the side a couple of times as im coming in it gave me better perception of my height, then just punch down firmly those toggles all the way at around 10-15 ft.

If your having trouble, check with your instructors, they're usually alright

[antibac 0]

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I havent been jumping long enough to know the answers to your questions, however i found when i was first trying to stick landings and run them off if i glanced to the side a couple of times as im coming in it gave me better perception of my height, then just punch down firmly those toggles all the way at around 10-15 ft.

If your having trouble, check with your instructors, they're usually alright

Thanks for the tip! I haven't been good at looking in front of me or to the sides, which results in flaring too high. Also when I fell hard on my butt (there was a hole in the ground after me...) which hurt my back, I didn't finish the flare. So, I know what NOT to do next, but I know I will have problems timing the flare. Hope I get some good tips here, and I will definitely talk to my instructor!

[Marcus93 0]

Haha, i've done that one as well. Was my 3rd (i think) jump and i was being guided in on the radio, quite a windy day. i heard "okay now arms all the way up" me being quite worried about my flare interpreted that as "flare flare flare". had to ride it out and hit the ground quite hard, luckily no damage done

[popsjumper 2]

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Thanks for the tip!

You DO realize that you're taking tips from someone who lists fewer jumps than you have. Do you think that is smart?

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I haven't been good at looking in front of me or to the sides,

There's a good clue to your problem.

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I fell hard on my butt (there was a hole in the ground after me...) which hurt my back,

Did they not teach you to PLF?

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Hope I get some good tips here,

The best tip: Forget what you read here. DO nothing that is suggested. Stop where you are and...

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I will definitely talk to my instructor!

...DO this.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[popsjumper 2]

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I was just wondering why some DZs decides not to use radios? My DZ doesn't, and I understand that you can learn more by thinking on your own, but I have been having trouble with flaring before landing (also landing pattern, but I have gotten better at this), and also had a small injury in my back because of this. I think I would be one of the students that would benefit from a little radio help during landing.

Do most DZ use radios, or is it common not to?

To answer your question...
Most do, It's only a back-up tool. Handy-dandy, yes. Not an end-all to beat-all. Not a requirement.

If you are looking to depend on a radio to tell you what to do and when to do it you're missing the whole point of the training. Your training provided you the means to handle the entire process on your own...with no assistance. It's up to you to perform.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[antibac 0]

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To answer your question...
Most do, It's only a back-up tool. Handy-dandy, yes. Not an end-all to beat-all. Not a requirement.

If you are looking to depend on a radio to tell you what to do and when to do it you're missing the whole point of the training. Your training provided you the means to handle the entire process on your own...with no assistance. It's up to you to perform.

I am not looking to depend on it, not at all. I thought it might be a good idea for helping me with the one thing I'm having most trouble with, just to help me get the feel of when I should flare. I've learned a lot by doing things myself, like the problems I had with landing pattern for instance.

Yes, they taught us PLF, which came in handy on my first jump when I did a face-plant-landing downhill. BAD spotting by my instructors, I was not able to reach the LZ at all, and I had to dodge power lines. I think the PLF helped me out a lot then. Unfortunately I kind of forgot about this later, and did a few butt landings (my two or three first jumps were PLFs). I remembered the butt landing from the tandem jump I had, and kind of started to "depend" on this sort of landing, because it felt like the most safe thing to do. I've learned otherwise now.

Just to let you know, everything people tip me about here I will most definitely talk over with my instructor first. Absolutely. Everything I pick up on here, or from other skydivers I meet, I talk over with my instructor. I'm not an idiot.

Thanks for your reply.

[sundevil777 93]

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I havent been jumping long enough to know the answers to your questions

It's great that you want to help. but if you know you don't know the answers, then you shouldn't offer answers anyway.

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however i found when i was first trying to stick landings and run them off if i glanced to the side a couple of times as im coming in it gave me better perception of my height

I've never heard of that technique, perhaps it is a good idea, but I suspect it has a a great potential to be a dangerous distraction. Where did you pick up this idea?

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then just punch down firmly those toggles all the way at around 10-15 ft.

No, this is not a good technique. It may work OK if you are so weak that you can't actually "punch down" fast, but otherwise it is bad advice. Fortunately, really large student canopies can be tolerant of such poor technique.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[Marcus93 0]

Do not under any circumstances listen to what i say. I meant well but shouldnt have said anything. I was just trying to share my experiences as a fellow begginer.

As for the glancing thing. It wasnt taught it (another reason to completely ignore me) just did it and found it much easier, talked to my instructor later and he said he thought it gave me a better idea of where i was in relation to the ground rather than the point i was looking at in front of me. I agree it has potential to go wrong.

Another example of why i shouldnt of been posting, i didnt actually mean punch the toggles down but it could have been misinterpreted.

Apologies again and if anyone can tell me how ill delete my earlier posts

[davelepka 4]

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I was just wondering why some DZs decides not to use radios? My DZ doesn't, and I understand that you can learn more by thinking on your own,

Is that what the people at the DZ say? You learn more thinking on your own? What other parts of the first jump course did they not teach you so you could figure it out thinking on your own?

I hate to disappoint you, but the people at that DZ are being cheap and lazy, and that's why you don't have a radio, or anyone to help you with the things that you obviously need help with (no offence to you, it's common for new jumpers to help 'getting' the pattern work and flare timing).

The radio does not inhibit learning or free thinking, it enhances it. There is no way for you to know how to fly a pattern or flare a canopy on your first jump. I can tell you about it all day long, but without actually doing it, you will never get the 'feel' of it. Without a radio to hepl you out the first time or two, you might not do it right, and thus not create any positive learning experiences to build on for the next jump.

For this reason, a radio is used to assist you in doing it properly, and illustrate to you the look and feel of a correct pattern and flare. Proper use of a radio includes reducing the amount of assistance over the course of the first 4 or 5 jumps (on average) at which point the student is given the choice to go off-radio if they are confident in their abilites.

Just wondering, but what training method did you use? Was it freefall training, like AFF, or one of the variations with a few tandems followed by AFF-tyope jumps? If so, maybe ask your instructors why they taught you hand signals for the freefall portion of the jumps? Why didn't they just hang there and let you 'learn more by thinking on your own'?

The answer should be obvious to you, and this it because it's bullshit. You learn much better with direct, real-time assistance and input from a qualified professional, and it's the same under canopy.

FYI - there is a DZ in northern California that still doesn't use radios, and a year or two ago a young lady who didn't get the 'hang' of canopy control managed to fly herself into a telephone pole. She was hospitalized with facial fractures and other injuries, but I guess she learned a whole lot on that jump, huh?

Cheap and lazy, the only reasons not to use ground to air radio in student training. Plain and simple.

[stratostar 5]

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Another example of why i shouldnt of been posting

I disagree here, I think you should post anytime you want about any topic you see fit to post about. However, as others have said, you need to focus on what you are saying and to whom you say it. Based on your posts it would seem your in need of some additional training and skills help, with that said, it could clearly be a mis understanding of our differences in country and use of slang or wording. Regardless of all that, we are all here to learn and the only stupid question you ask, is the one your too afraid to ask here because someone might take aim at you and belittle or point out your just wrong about what ever, hell you might be right and their just being a prick to be a prick, not like we don't any of those guys in the ranks....


To the OP, I try to train my FJC without every speaking of the use of a radio. I do this because it will keep your focus on WTF to do on your own once the canopy opens part of the class. However today too many people hear about it via friends or marketing and always pretty much ask about it after we get into the meat of it. This spoils the effect of how I like to teach, people are likely to not pay heed to the training once they hear "someone will talk you down on radio" you can watch as their eyes glaze over and the lights dim. In classes where I have used a parasim trainer and not used a sim, but I never told the students about a radio till I put it on them, have all done 100% better in canopy control and on airport landings, then those who knew ahead of time, when it came to an actual radio failure and knowing WTF to do.

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[DougH 270]

I didn't have a radio for my student jumps.

We did have another jumpers kids, 5 and 7 at that time, that would yell "FLARE BASTARD FLARE". Their timing was pretty good.

"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

[guineapiggie101 0]

I think the instructors might be worried that people would get too dependent on radio, hence why they might not use it with students.

Too much dependence on radio is not good either, since it can cause issues when the student is on solo status.

If and when I come back to jumping, I am probably going to go back onto radio for a while, until I get my landings done right.

[popsjumper 2]

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I think the instructors might be worried that people would get too dependent on radio, hence why they might not use it with students.

Too much dependence on radio is not good either, since it can cause issues when the student is on solo status.

If and when I come back to jumping, I am probably going to go back onto radio for a while, until I get my landings done right.

Your post is contradictory. On the one hand you say not to depend on radio and on the other you said you're going to use it until you get your landings right.

IMO, it's good that you will take the radio with you when you return.

It's going to be tough to get the hang of landings simply by going on what the radio tells you. Conditions are going to different on nearly every jump. You can, however, use the radio commands to help you IF you can relate it to what you are experiencing at that time.

On top of that, instructors are not infallible. Sometimes I'm ashamed to share the same rating as some of the bozos I hear talking on the radio to students. And that happens at nearly every DZ.

I always tell my students to get a sight picture at landing time. The idea is to use the sight picture of this landing to understand how to adjust for the next one.

For example:
"In these conditions, I flared here and that's what happened. Next jump in the same conditions, I'll adjust that flare, up or down, to get better results."

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[popsjumper 2]

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...hell you might be right and their just being a prick to be a prick, not like we don't any of those guys in the ranks....

Yes, all too often. I have to admit that I may have come across that way myself and I'm spanking myself for it.

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To the OP, I try to train my FJC without every speaking of the use of a radio. I do this because it will keep your focus on WTF to do on your own once the canopy opens part of the class.

Yup. Another good point I learned from you.

I save it until the very last when I release them to jump. I emphasize that they have been trained to handle things on their own and that the radio is only there to assist if they don't perform properly.

I tell them to obey the commands of the radio unless it's obviously putting them in trouble such as guiding them into the trees on landing. YOU are driving the bus, don't let somebody tell you to crash it.

My pet peeve is instructors who do not give the student an opportunity to perform under canopy. Hell, they've been trained! Let them show you that they listened and learned! Be there for them when they screw up but STFU when they are performing well!

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[guineapiggie101 0]

I know it is not going to be easy for me to get the hang of landing without radio. I forced myself to get off radio because it was the only way to graduate from AFF. Also, I HAD to learn to depend on myself and my judgement. Thing is, I realize, in retrospect, I hurt myself more on landings that I did on my own, vs those that the instructors gave input on.

I know it is my responsibility to get my landings right. I am going to get my landings pounded right in my head, when I come back, so I don't break myself again.

[davelepka 4]

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I think the instructors might be worried that people would get too dependent on radio, hence why they might not use it with students

That's bullshit too. The only way a student gets dependant on the radio is when an instructor allows it. If they short the student on training in the area of canopy control, use a radio, don't debrief the canopy ride, and let that cycle continue on for the duration of their student jump, then the student may very well become dependent on the radio.

If the radio is used as a tool to assist in learning, then there should be no problem. Each canopy ride should be discussed a flight planned before the jump, and that plan should be reviewed against what really happened after the jump. Starting with jump 2 or 3, there should be a stated expectation of the student that the level of assistance they need should be diminishing. Any students not meeting that criteria should be put through additional canopy control training to get them up to speed and flying their own parachutes.

Part of skydiving is being preparred for the unexpected. Changing spots, weather conditions, traffic conditions and gear problems and effect the canopy ride, and what the jumper needs to do in order to land safely. Expecting a student to 100% be able to handle any and every thing that could come up is unreasonable. A radio provides a way for a qualified instructor to literally speak right into their ear as events are transpiring, and helping them to make decisions. You teach them as much as you can on the ground, but your realize that between the random nature of skydiving and the random nature of students, giving up that line of communication is just plain stupid. It can easily make the difference between a non-injury and an ambulance ride.

Again, I'll point to the AFF hand signals. I don't know of one AFF I or DZ that is willing to forego the immediate, real time input an instructor can provide with freefall hand signals. The radio is the same tool for the canopy ride. If you have an AFF student who can't remember to arch without an 'arch' signal from a AFF I for 10 jumps in a row, you would not pass them and focus the training to get them past that hump. Ditto with the radio, if you get a student who won't unstow their brakes without being told to via the radio, and this goes on for 10 jumps, you stop the process, and refocus the training to get past the trouble.

None of this is even mentioning the most basic use of the radio, orienting the student to the DZ once they are open. Many students have never been a small (or any) plane before, and none of them have spent time trying to pick out one specific field from altitude. If you figure that an Otter might drop a student a mile or more from the DZ, and who knows what direction they'll be facing when they open, a simple 'Left 180 Billy, look out in front of you and you'll see the airport' can be a big help, and get them to the DZ so they can fly the pattern you taught them.

With open canopies and canopy control problems being the current #1 killer of skydivers, any DZ that would pass on the safety and training benefits a student radio can provide is being run by a much of morons.

[stratostar 5]

yea that's the funny thing about "teaching", how do you know if you did your job right if your too busy running your mouth playing radio control skydivers.....

I didn't spend all that time in class on canopy control and WTF to do just to have the info out there and to hear myself talk.

I'm going to have to start using the bus driver line!

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[popsjumper 2]

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The only way a student gets dependant on the radio is when an instructor allows it.

Yup. I would also add, "...if the instructor enables it." And it happens all too frequently as per my observations.

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Expecting a student to 100% be able to handle any and every thing that could come up is unreasonable.

Yup.

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A radio provides a way for a qualified instructor to literally speak right into their ear as events are transpiring, and helping them to make decisions.

Yup. And helping is one thing, controlling is another.
If an instructor feels that he has to tell them every little nuance without giving them the opportunity to practice what they were trained for, he defeats the training and creates the dependence.

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If you figure that an Otter might drop a student a mile or more from the DZ, and who knows what direction they'll be facing when they open, a simple 'Left 180 Billy, look out in front of you and you'll see the airport' can be a big help, ...

Yup....if they can't find it on their own

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With open canopies and canopy control problems being the current #1 killer of skydivers, any DZ that would pass on the safety and training benefits a student radio can provide is being run by a much of morons.

Taking the hard line but impossible to disagree.

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Here is how I handle radio on Level 1:
Stu, if you can hear me, do a practice flare. 3, 2, 1 Flare.

OK, Stu, you know what to do! Have fun!

(no other communication until final approach unless necessary to keep them out of trouble or if I specifically want them to do something more for some reason.)

OK Stu, Hands up, feet and knees together. Get ready, get ready and flare, flare, flare.

OK Stu, stow your toggles and gather it all up. I'll be right there.
--------------------

Radio communication after that depends on how well they did on the first jump.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239