Soft handle pull force

[craddock 0]

Mark,
I understand the concept. You missed the sarcasm apparently. My point was that I am not positive that there is not a rig on the market that has a design for a soft handle to allow it to peel somewhat by itself when pulled. Mabey not but I don't know. I just did not like the blanket statement. Not all rigs attach the handles the same on both sides.
Josh

That spot isn't bad at all, the winds were strong and that was the issue! It was just on the downwind side.

[Hooknswoop 19]

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Not possibly. There is the same amount of Velcro on a cutaway pillow as there is on a reserve pillow, hence the same amount of force to peel either handle.

There is the same amount of velcro when using a D-handle also yet we don't peel them. My reserve and cutaway pillows on one of my rigs do not attach to the main lift web in the same fashion. Until I have seen every design for attaching a soft pillow handle to the main lift web, and possibly pulled all the diferent designs that may or may not be out there, I can not agree with a blanket statement like that. Does not mean I disagree though. It is quite possible.

Since there is no Velcro on a D ring, you can’t peel the Velcro.

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For any pillow handle, the Velcro should be peeled

and then

I have several cutaway and reserve rides using nothing but pillows and haven’t peeled a handle either

The first statement seems pretty matter of fact yet you don't even follow your own advice. I think we agree on our own prodedures. Why the agrument? I never recommended against peeling. I believe a jumper should do what is best for them.

Even if I don’t peel the Velcro, that doesn’t change the fact that it much easier to pull a pillow handle if you peel the Velcro. If not peeling the Velcro works for you as it does me, then no worries. Until a jumper is sure, they should err to the side of safety and plan on peeling.

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If you don’t need to peel it, great, but it is better to peel it and not need to than not peel it and need to, for either a cutaway handle or a reserve handle

I have pulled my reserve at around 500 feet. Would it have been better to peel it even if I did not need it?
I still believe jumpers should do what is best for them.

It would have been better to not be in free fall at 500 feet. Of course it wouldn’t have been better to peel it, unless it prevented you from pulling the handle in a timely manner, then it definitely would have been better to peel it.

This thread was started with a question about pull force and pillow handles. My points are, 1) It is easier to pull a pillow handle if the Velcro is peeled first and this can be the difference between pulling the handle and not pulling the handle. Is it mandatory to peel first? No. 2) Pulling a pillow handle, be it a cutaway or reserve pillow, takes the same amount of force. If one handle or one side of the harness has more worn Velcro than the other, it can make that side easier to pull. 3) Banning reserve pillows without banning cutaway pillows because someone wasn’t able to pull a reserve pillow makes no sense. Combined with a statement in another thread that the jumper may have been unconscious, makes it even more ludricious. 4) Soft reserve handles have pros and cons. Deciding weather or not a soft reserve handle is appropriate for you depends on you, your gear, the types of jumps you make, and what you are comfortable with.

Derek

[FrogNog 1]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned old Velcro vs. new Velcro, which can change the separation force (in both peel and no-peel, or separate and slide directions) a whole lot.

In my TAS transition harness drills, I didn't bother to peel. I grabbed and punched across my chest. The velcro on the scary old drill rig (which happens to be the intentional-cutaway under-rig, too ) is quite worn and presented no trouble, even in my not-adrenalined state. (Of course, I wasn't spinning and the excess cutaway cables weren't bound up.)

When I get a new rig, I will seriously be looking into how sticky the (cutaway pillow) velcro is and I may get it onto the hanging harness too just to check. Thankfully the rental rig I'm on right now isn't too sticky on its cutaway pillow velcro so I'm not worried about it.

I've thought about learning to peel-then-pull but for now I'm still green on this whole two-handles thing (one of which is a pillow ) so I'm just going to concentrate on staying sane, staying on top of my openings as they happen, and not wasting time deciding and dealing with stuff. Hopefully (and I know that's a famous last word) if the cutaway handle Velcro whoops up on me I will have time for one more try and I'll think to peel and pull.

While that plan sounds stupid from the standpoint of "thinking intelligently during an emergency", I weigh against that the adrenaline I expect to have in any "fast must chop or die" situation, and the time I expect to have in any "leisurely not good enough for me chop" situation. I'm betting my ass that in the first the velcro will be no match for my visceral determination and in the second I'll wisely consider the best way to conduct my cutaway for maximum enjoyment. (First one was sure fun )

-=-=-=-=-
Pull.

[eWave 0]

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If I remember correctly, investigation report of that Finnish fatality is now published. Soft pillow handles for reserves remains banned here in Finland.

Are they banning pillow cutaway handles also?

A pillow cutaway handle requires the same amount of force to peel, but isn't limited to 22 lbs (in the U.S.) to pull like the reserve handle is.

Derek

No, only reserve handles.

[jaaska 0]

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This thread was started with a question about pull force and pillow handles. My points are, 1) It is easier to pull a pillow handle if the Velcro is peeled first and this can be the difference between pulling the handle and not pulling the handle. Is it mandatory to peel first? No. 2) Pulling a pillow handle, be it a cutaway or reserve pillow, takes the same amount of force. If one handle or one side of the harness has more worn Velcro than the other, it can make that side easier to pull. 3) Banning reserve pillows without banning cutaway pillows because someone wasn’t able to pull a reserve pillow makes no sense. Combined with a statement in another thread that the jumper may have been unconscious, makes it even more ludricious. 4) Soft reserve handles have pros and cons. Deciding weather or not a soft reserve handle is appropriate for you depends on you, your gear, the types of jumps you make, and what you are comfortable with.

Derek

Unfortunately I couldn't find the report in the net, yet. I know SIL is going to mail a paper copy of it to all Finnish skydiving clubs.

I did not take any notes during the presentation at the skydiving conference, so I can not state any specific data. The female skydiver was not unconscious. She had a camcorder with her and it was running until the time of impact.

As soon as I get my hands on the report, I can give you more information.

IF I remember correctly, she was very current (over 400 jumps during the last 12 months).

[Hooknswoop 19]

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The female skydiver was not unconscious. She had a camcorder with her and it was running until the time of impact.

Then why are they blaming a pillow reserve handle? This reserve pillow banning isn't making any sense to me.

Derek

[rigging65 0]

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...so he added a bit of hook velcro to the bottom of my handle to kind of "prime" it so it's easier to peal...

Commonly referred to as a "chicken strip", by some...

"...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward.
For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

[vesatoro 0]

Summary/translation of the accident in Finland

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=508246;

Vesa

"Fear is the path to the Dark side"
(Master Yoda)

[vesatoro 0]

About the ban of the soft pillow type reserve handles in Finland. It is a decision that was made by comparing both the pros and cons of the handle types.

Pro:s
-more snag-free during climb/jump
-aesthetics and cool look, that are priorized by some jumpers more than functionality.

Cons:
- More difficcult to locate, especially when using thick glowes or with numb hands (Finland is no Florida). As the feel of the pillow material is the same as with webbing, clothes etc. compared with a hard steel handle.
- the pull force in ideal situation versus not so ideal situation. When peeled, the pull force stays within the acceptable limits. But when extracted for example only with right hand, straight pull force can be as high as 20-30lbs. And it's not too easy to peel the velcro with your right hand.

The reserve handle is very different from the main release handle. When doing a cut-away, you should not be in a big hurry if you have opened in correct altitude. And if you have done the decision at right time. But the reserve handle still is the thing you must be 100% sure you can reach, grab and pull in any altitude, condition and situation you may encounter.

Do we really want to use emergency equipment with very narrow tolerance in it's correct use?

At least I don't want to
Vesa


-

"Fear is the path to the Dark side"
(Master Yoda)

[rigging65 0]

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Do we really want to use emergency equipment with very narrow tolerance in it's correct use?

I'm not saying I disagree with your statement, but what about this statement: "Do we really want to jump gear with a large snag hazard that, when snagged, results in a very rapid deployment without consideration for what body position we're in?"

Just food for thought...there's always more than one way to skin the proverbial cat....

"...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward.
For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

[davelepka 4]

Yes, the ripcord is a snag hazzard, but considering it's predominate throughout skydivings history (for both main and reserve deployments), and the low occurence of sang-related incidents (in comparison to jump #'s using ripcords) it seems like a very small risk. For example, I know of two people who have had the tabs of a collapsable slider catch a cascade on the way down, and require a cutaway. Considering the number of succesful deployments with that configuration, I'm not about to return to a velcro slider or get a continuous line set.

In the event of a problem, the D-ring seems to be the more user friendly set up, with a one-step pull, and a secure loop to grab onto.

Aside from the sit-fly train formation, I have trouble thinking of a situation that puts your reserve handle at any additional snag risk in comparison to your other handles. Exits will funnel, and newbies will grab haphazzardly at your gear during exits or docking, but the risks presented in those situations are open to all of your handles (and your head, eyes, nuts, etc.)

[Hooknswoop 19]

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- More difficcult to locate, especially when using thick glowes or with numb hands (Finland is no Florida). As the feel of the pillow material is the same as with webbing, clothes etc. compared with a hard steel handle.

This applies to Cutaway handles also.

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- the pull force in ideal situation versus not so ideal situation. When peeled, the pull force stays within the acceptable limits. But when extracted for example only with right hand, straight pull force can be as high as 20-30lbs

This applies to cutaway pillows as well, except the pull forces can top the 20-30 lbs. of a reserve pillow.

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The reserve handle is very different from the main release handle. When doing a cut-away, you should not be in a big hurry if you have opened in correct altitude.

I agree, if you have begun the deployment with sufficent altitude.

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But the reserve handle still is the thing you must be 100% sure you can reach, grab and pull in any altitude, condition and situation you may encounter.

As should the cutaway handle in the event there is a problem without sufficent altitude to take your time finding and pulling it.

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Do we really want to use emergency equipment with very narrow tolerance in it's correct use?

Such as mini-risers, small, high performance canopies, small reserves, exceeding max speeds for the reserve canopy, etc?

Banning reserve pillow handles and ignoring cutaway pillows is silly. Has there ever been a case of an impossible cutaway in Finland?

Derek

[rigging65 0]

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Yes, the ripcord is a snag hazzard, but considering it's predominate throughout skydivings history (for both main and reserve deployments), and the low occurence of sang-related incidents (in comparison to jump #'s using ripcords) it seems like a very small risk.

Yes, but most all of skydiving history has been without the discipline of Freeflying. You see lots of harness gripping going on now, and that has lead to several premature reserve rides that I'm aware of (a few with very bad outcomes). There is also the even newer discipline of Hybrid dives now, which also rely quite heavily on harness grips. So even if you're not a freeeflyer, you could still find yourself in the position of getting "snagged" by another jumper within the course of a "normal" skydive.

Again, I'm not saying that soft-pillows are the only way to go, but I think there are simply more snag hazards out there today than there were even 8 or ten years ago. And since the soft pillow is certainly less snag-prone than any type D-handle, one can put two and two together and get four easily enough.

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I have trouble thinking of a situation that puts your reserve handle at any additional snag risk in comparison to your other handles.

Again... many aspects of Freeflying and Hybrids present these risks. And since these are gaining a lot of popularity, they need to be considered...especially because they routinely result in speeds greater than those allowed by the Mfg., and a premi at these speeds can cause great injury, major canopy damage and even death. Add to that the "Exits will funnel, and newbies will grab haphazzardly at your gear during exits or docking" issues and I'd say you have several reasons to be concerned about snags in the current skydiving environment.

"...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward.
For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

[mjosparky 3]

Derek,
AS8015 Rev. B 4.3.2.5 - "not less than 5 lbf (22.2 N)(applied in the direction requiring the least force), nor more than 22 lbf (97.9 N) ( applied in the direction requiring the greatest force under normal design operations) .... A minimum of 12 pull tests is required."
Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[vesatoro 0]

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- More difficcult to locate, especially when using thick glowes or with numb hands (Finland is no Florida). As the feel of the pillow material is the same as with webbing, clothes etc. compared with a hard steel handle.

>This applies to Cutaway handles also.

Yes, it does. And I have seen people who do have D-rings also as cut-away-handles. And again the reserve handle is always the more important of them, as in a event of an impossible cut-away you can hope for the best and go directly for the reserve.

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- the pull force in ideal situation versus not so ideal situation. When peeled, the pull force stays within the acceptable limits. But when extracted for example only with right hand, straight pull force can be as high as 20-30lbs

>This applies to cutaway pillows as well, except the >pull forces can top the 20-30 lbs. of a reserve
>pillow.

Which is again usually caused a poor equipment choise or lack of maintenance of gear. Cleaning and lubricating the cables, hard cable housings and cable free end housings are the way to lessen the possibility of a hard cut-away.

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But the reserve handle still is the thing you must be 100% sure you can reach, grab and pull in any altitude, condition and situation you may encounter.

As should the cutaway handle in the event there is a problem without sufficent altitude to take your time finding and pulling it.

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Do we really want to use emergency equipment with very narrow tolerance in it's correct use?

>Such as mini-risers, small, high performance
>canopies, small reserves, exceeding max speeds >for the reserve canopy, etc?

Mini risers, high performance canopies and so on are not the emergency equipment we use. They are "sport equipment" The reserve is the emergency equipment. Too big reserve loading is a result of a poor equipment choise. Exeeding the TSO'd speeds for reserves is unwise, as we have seen.

>Banning reserve pillow handles and ignoring
>cutaway pillows is silly. Has there ever been a
>case of an impossible cutaway in Finland?

No, there has not been.

Vesa

"Fear is the path to the Dark side"
(Master Yoda)

[Hooknswoop 19]

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AS8015 Rev. B 4.3.2.5 - "not less than 5 lbf (22.2 N)(applied in the direction requiring the least force), nor more than 22 lbf (97.9 N) ( applied in the direction requiring the greatest force under normal design operations) .... A minimum of 12 pull tests is required."

Right, but the 22 lbs. limit is from a hanging harness, not from a spinning main with the risers twisted. In real life there is nothing limiting the cutaway handle pull forces to 22 lbs. There have been numerous hard/impossible cutaway incidents posted here on dz.com.

Derek

[x3mcam 0]

Just one comment:
- imagine that your left hand is imobilized. Imagine then pulling/peeling or whatever the reserve soft pillow with your right hand only, and in a hurry.

Please feel free to try it...

Tomppa

[jacco 0]

There is a lot of discussion about peeling the velcro in order to get either the cutaway or reserve pillow detached from the webbing. It has not been said explicitly but the remarks on this practice suggest that it is time consuming to peel ("peeling first"), as if you would use your fingers to undo the pillow, like peeling a banana, burning seconds in the process.

This is not (or doesn't have to be) the case. My procedure for the cutaway pillow is to grab it with my right hand, push it outward applying most pressure at bottom of the pillow with the palm of my hand (thus peeling the velcro from bottom to top), and pull in a continuous motion.

I haven't had to pull my reserve yet and this is not meant as instruction. It is just the way I have been taught, I have accepted as the right procedure for me and how I continuously practice my reserve procedure.

[vesatoro 0]

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This is not (or doesn't have to be) the case. My procedure for the cutaway pillow is to grab it with my right hand, push it outward applying most pressure at bottom of the pillow with the palm of my hand (thus peeling the velcro from bottom to top), and pull in a continuous motion.

I haven't had to pull my reserve yet and this is not meant as instruction. It is just the way I have been taught, I have accepted as the right procedure for me and how I continuously practice my reserve procedure.

Yes, this is the way it all happens In_An_Ideal_Situation. How about thinking what happens when one or more of these things happen: you are low, spinning, do not see the handle, can't use your right hand (how do you pul the main with your right hand disabled? do you rely solely to right hand?) have cold hands or/and poor feel in your hands because of cold or gloves, have a wingsuit on and so on...

We should be concider also the not_so_perfect situations. They do happen. At least your last chance (the reserve handle type) should be concidered these things in mind.

Vesa

"Fear is the path to the Dark side"
(Master Yoda)

[davelepka 4]

I think my response to your post would have been something like 'freefliers need to be aware of their handles, and people around them.......I have 1000's of freefly jumps, and I keep people away from my handles.....yadda yadda'. To which you could make a counter point to what I'm saying. I think the issue is weighted toward personal prefernce, and even then the actual pro's and con's of each handle are fairly balanced, that this thread could go on forever with little progress. In light of that, lets say this:

Soft handles are different than a D-ring. There are pro's and con's to each system, and it is important that a jumper knows and understands these. It is also important that any jumper who is changing the type of handle they are using (this even applies to a single jump on a borrowed rig) be briefed on the differences i.e., peel and pull vs. pull only, and ideally put into a hanging harness to practice the new procedure.


Everybody happy with that?

[rigging65 0]

Very nicely summarized. As I've mentioned before, I'm not so sure one handle type is so much "better" than another...it's much more an issue of "which types of dangers am I, personally, more likely to encounter?", and therefore, "what type of gear is more likely to increase my overall safety?" and "Am I comfortable with the tradeoffs that I'm making by choosing this particular type/piece of gear?"

Once you work these out, then you can make a more informed decision about what type of gear you need. Gear selection is about stacking the odds in your favor. Making decisions based of the environment you're going to spend the majority of your time in is a good form a risk management. Of course, IMO, this is essential for all your gear decisions...regardless of what it is... but I'm funny that way

"...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward.
For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

[jumpgod 0]

because of the some of these reserve pin issues lately, most DZs are requiring their riggers to "pull force check" reserve pins in all riggs coming due for inspection and repack.

as for testing pull force associated with a pillow, i am not aware. but i can tell you that, from experience, the pull force between the hell-wedge and pillow is identical.

"dude, where's my main?"

[dinog3 0]

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In reference to your opinon about pulling a soft handle as opposed to peeling, you are incorrect. Speaking from a manufacturers point of view, we ALWAYS reccomend the jumper peel the handle as opposed to pulling. When velcro is peeled, it creates a weak point allowing the jumper to release the handle with minimun input. I you consulted Mark or Egon about this on your Micron, they would tell you the same. If you need additional information to help you pass this on to your students contact me at [email protected]

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[nacmacfeegle 0]

"How about thinking what happens when one or more of these things happen: you are low, spinning, do not see the handle, can't use your right hand (how do you pul the main with your right hand disabled? do you rely solely to right hand?) have cold hands or/and poor feel in your hands because of cold or gloves, have a wingsuit on and so on..."

Its great that people are thinking like this. However the same argument could be applied to the cutaway pad.
I currently (I may change my mind at some point)believe that it is of more importance to get a clean cutaway, so as to avoid cypres firing my reserve into my main shit.
So I have a looped cutaway handle, and a soft reserve pad.
I think Davelepka summed it up, you have to weigh up your own circumstances and make your own decision. Most importantly you should be aware of the ramifications of your own gear selection, and take responsibility for your own decision making processes.

There is no right or wrong in this situation, its all about individual choice.

--------------------

He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson

[jacco 0]

It is possible to discuss all the exceptions to the rule, but I was merely commenting on the way peeling was regarded in general (in some posts, in my opinion), the general way of performing a reserve procedure and what the basics are for mine, and yes in an ideal situation.

If the situation is not ideal there are a lot of different scenarios. I have thought about the ones that I am aware of, discussed them with fellow skydivers, read about them in the forums, etc, and have procedures worked out for them. I do have thoughts about some of the less ideal situations you mention but that was not what my comment was referring to.

Jacco.