Reserve Packing methods

[MrHixxx 0]

A few months back I was discussing reserve packing methods with a master rigger I ran into at a boogie. He said that he has a "staggered" flat pack method that opens faster than a neat propack. I was wondering if anyone else is familiar with this. I personally believe you can't beat a neat propack with the nose wide open and a good wind channel up the center.

thanks, Jon

[Wags 0]

I would think someone in the BASE world would be able to answer this, as they get to pack "neat" and jump them more then we do with reserves. Not to mention it's a more consistent environment.

Blue Skies,
Wags

[councilman24 36]

There is a method of packing that essentially results in a propack starting on the floor like a flat pack. You split the sides of the canopy as you pick up each line group. As for any particular pack job opening faster, ask to see the drop test data. There's a lot of rumor, opinion, and legend in skydiving that's presented as fact. The industry doesn't even know the opening times of reserve canopies at the end of pack cycles. All of the TSO testing is done on relatively fresh pack jobs. Some manufacturers are just now collecting data on end of pack cycle performance... A multi year project.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[rigging65 0]

Quote

Some manufacturers are just now collecting data on end of pack cycle performance... A multi year project.

Actually, the military and at least a couple of different canopy mfgs. have done rather extensive long-term-pack testing and have found it doesn't make a damn bit of difference in opening times.

For some reason, PIA doesn't seem to want to believe the work that others have done. Hell, I was at a seminar where the hierarchy at PD offered their test data (of which they have a ton) to PIA after being told exactly the same thing being presented here..."We have no reliable data to support this one way or the other."

IMO, several people on the PIA Rigging commission are pushing personal agendas and are trying to justifying their positions. Wake up people! The information is out there, you just have to ask!!

"...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward.
For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

[Chrisky 0]

afaik, its called "Pro-Stack".
The final result is pretty much a propack canopy layout. Actually, it just ends up having the canopy folded and the lines lying centered in the same way, no matter if you use Pro-Pack or Pro-Stack.
They are both PRO=Proper(?) Ramair Orientation.
From what i heard, its common practice for reserve packs, mostly because you seem to have better control of the line laying (as you don't "drop" the cocoon with the lines in the center, increasing risk lines slipping to the sides/towards the nose-> danger of lineover). Apart from that, you seem to get the air out of the canopy more easily, allowing for a tighter PJ.
I've also seen a member of the GK pack using this method, and it was phuck*n fast. But you could see he had tons of routine on it.

I'm not a rigger, so if i do have any misconceptions here, PLEASE CORRECT!

I'm pretty eager on learning in that respect.

The mind is like a parachute - it only works once it's open.
From the edge you just see more.
... Not every Swooper hooks & not every Hooker swoops ...

[councilman24 36]

I doubt that these days it's "common". With most everybody including riggers propacking these days, we, at least I, now feel more comfortagle do a stand up propack and then redressing it on the ground. I started using what you call the Prostack in the middle 80's when Paraphernalia published it for the Norther Lite. I used it for a long time for greater control.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[sunshine 2]

I still do the pro pack on the ground for reserves. I have too much trouble doing it standing up. I think it's cause my arms are too short. Anyhoo, i'm sticking with what i'm most comfortable with since it is indeed someone's life i'm packing. I love watching other riggers pack. It's so neat to see people's own little style, such a good way for me to pick up tips and such.

___________________________________________
meow

I get a Mike hug! I get a Mike hug!

[Chrisky 0]

Quote

I doubt that these days it's "common".

*snip*

Well, riggerrob just packed up my reserve lately and told me that was the method he uses, and the rigger who did so before used it too, so i just generalized.

Quote

I used it for a long time for greater control.

This is just what i expect when i pay a rigger for a reserve packjob.
Can there be "enough" control for a reserve packjob?
And it's the reason why BASE dudes use it too, if i get it right.

The mind is like a parachute - it only works once it's open.
From the edge you just see more.
... Not every Swooper hooks & not every Hooker swoops ...

[hookitt 0]

Some BASE dudes PRO pack standing up and redress it on the ground. Some BASE dudes just PRO pack on the ground. It's just a PRO pack whether you start it by hanging it over your shoulder or start it on the ground.

On my BASE rig and on reserves, I clamp the topskin above the line groups. Stack it nicely then pack it standing up. I place it on the ground and finish up the details.

Occasionally, just because and for no other reason, I PRO-pack my BASE rig on the ground. Both Methods offer plenty of "control" if you're a neat packer. Keep in mind I've seen plenty of poorly packed or just very wrinkly packed parachutes that were packed with either method.

Moral: The end result is still a PRO pack.

My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

[Chrisky 0]

Quote

Moral: The end result is still a PRO pack.

Sure is, no doubt on that. I just prefer thinking my rigger does it on the ground neatly stacking it, because if i think of "standing", my inner eye sees packer Joe just throw the whole PJ to the ground to bag it. No good thought for my reserve.

The mind is like a parachute - it only works once it's open.
From the edge you just see more.
... Not every Swooper hooks & not every Hooker swoops ...

[rigging65 0]

I've got about 2000 reserve packjobs using a PRO-stack (on the ground) and only a few hundred in the standing position. One thing I notice about the guys that pack over the shoulder: They end up either doing the job twice (dressing it over the shoulder and then re-dressing it on the ground) or using a BUNCH of clamps (somewhere between 3 and 7...which is something I dislike, but is certainly acceptable).

Not that this should ever be a race, but it's always seemed to me that every extra step you add to a packjob is another opportunity for something to slip out of place or come unfolded...and that certainly slows you down. I like the PRO-stack because I only have to do the job once...and it's faster

Every rigger we train learns the PRO-stack, but very few stick with it after they get done with the course. They almost always ask if there is some reason why they aren't taught the over-the-shoulder method, and I always tell them "Packing over the shoulder is a nice way to pack a main, then you put it on the ground and clean it up and it becomes a reserve packjob...Why do you want to pack the same parachute twice?"

I think most people are just more familiar packing over-the-shoulder, so that's what they stick with. Either way is just fine, as long as you clean up after yourself and maintain tension and symmetry throughout the packjob!

"...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward.
For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

[hookitt 0]

Quote

like the PRO-stack because I only have to do the job once...and it's faster

Challenge??? Hmm??? Neatness counts.

My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

[DexterBase 0]

Quote

...or using a BUNCH of clamps (somewhere between 3 and 7...which is something I dislike, but is certainly acceptable).

hehe... When I pack my BASE rig I'll sometimes use up to 12 clamps.

[councilman24 36]

I've been trying to remember. In the 7 rigger conferences and PIA symposiums (all symposiums but one) I've attended, I don't think I've seen the "ProStack" demo'd. I've now gotten to the point where my over the shoulder, lay it down and straighten it out is neater, hmmmm and maybe faster, depending on what else I have to do with the rig. What ever is most comfortable for the rigger is right. Like I said, it took several years for me to feel comfortable with doing reserves over the shoulder after I started packing mains that way.

For the non riggers reading this, pro packing a reserve over the shoulder is much more involved than packing a main. Laying it on the floor is really just the beginning, not the end. I suggest that all jumpers watch at least one reserve pack job. I tell my customers they are always welcome to watch, but I actually probably do better without them watching because I'm not distracted. One customer (and ex-girl friend) immediately responded "I'll just watch you do someone else's."

If your rigger has maintained a good reputation don't worry about the details of how they accomplish the final goal. What you should worry about is whether your rigger (AND YOU!) are treating your rig and reserve as your last chance to live.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[ZigZag 0]

If you know the the underlying principle...
what is the dfference...

I spend the time to lay the canopy flat and squeeze out all the air, from tail to nose. I return to the risers and pick up the lines, low, and run them up to the canopy.
So, from the flat pack, I transpose to a pro-pack. I flake accordingly, and lay the result onto the ground.
I re-dress the entire packjob twice, flaking the steering lines and their associated fabric first, the A-B, B-C, C-D partitions, and then re-dressing them in reverse order. A matter of minutes! Once again there
is a check for line continuity, and some re-dressing,
but rather minor. ( A built in redundency ). Folding of the entire canopy is either in accordance with the mfg or accepted practices. There is some lee-way, but constructs a rather limited gray-zone for riggers.
A good foundation for rigging can be obtained via Dave deWolf's Rigging course and the Rigging University via Rigging Innovations. Many packers and jumpers obtain a basic understanding of rigging skills through their involvement in the sport, by their presence and continued exposure to the state of the art;. A basic understanding of packing can only be generally obtained by this very aspect of their involvement. A jumper that follows some of these guidelines should in general become selfsufficient, but does not absolve said jumper from the responsibilities he/she accepted. Learn how to pack well. Take your instructor to task. Make them do what they said they would do. Packing lessons are part of the requirements of any ground schooling.!!! If you do not understand packing, then it is not an issue of it being pawned off to someone else. If you shall be charged extra for packing, make sure that you understand this. Generally it is part and parcel of your jump course. Why, because it is required by the USPA. It is part of your entitlement to a fully qualified instructional course.

[riggerrob 558]

In the 7 rigger conferences and PIA symposiums (all symposiums but one) I've attended, I don't think I've seen the "ProStack" demo'd.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Hee! Hee!
Sounds like you skipped my lecture at the 1997 PIA Symposium entitled "Packing a Ram-Air Canopy into a Pilot Emergency Rig." The lecture was sponsored by Rigging Innovations (maker of the Aviator PEP) and Precision (maker of the P-124A canopy). It lecture included plenty of packing tips that I learned from those dirty, rotten, low-pulling BASE jumpers. I wrote this style of PRO-stacking into manuals for the P-124A/Aviator, Talon 2, Telesis 2, Genera, Voodoo, etc.

[rigging65 0]

Quote

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


like the PRO-stack because I only have to do the job once...and it's faster

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Challenge??? Hmm??? Neatness counts.

Bring it! And yes, neatness definitely counts.

"...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward.
For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

[hookitt 0]

All in fun

But sure!

Trading Ideas is what makes us better.

My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

[rigging65 0]

Of course!

"...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward.
For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

[councilman24 36]

Actually I did attend that. I was thinking I saw it once after I had been using it for years and years but I couldn't remember where or who it would have been. But now I remember the Aviator demo. I think I mentioned before that the first place I saw it written was in a circa 1981 Northern Lite manual from paraphernalia.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[betzilla 56]

Quote

Every rigger we train learns the PRO-stack, but very few stick with it after they get done with the course. They almost always ask if there is some reason why they aren't taught the over-the-shoulder method, and I always tell them "Packing over the shoulder is a nice way to pack a main, then you put it on the ground and clean it up and it becomes a reserve packjob...Why do you want to pack the same parachute twice?"

I'm a just a rigging student, so take what I say with a grain of salt. BUT, doesn't it come down to, which skin do you want to organize first, top or bottom? If you hang it over your shoulder, the bottom skin will be very well organized, but you have to redress the top skin. The reverse is true for the flat pro (PRO-stack)pack. Either way, I've come out with decent pack jobs (probably just luck this early in the game ), by checking and double checking line position, and making sure the nose is open. I prefer the flat-pro right now, but could see changing to over-the-shoulder at some point.

Ultimately, I could give two shits HOW the rigger gets it that way, as long as the canopy is facing front in the bag, and it's a clean, well organized pack job. With no tools in it... .

[GroundZero 0]

We don't even want to mention my Psycho pack reserve pack job.... works very well for the different vessels we pack into, but to try to pull it into a molar bag shape, well, there's the trick...

but I'm not a rigger so I can't pack my own reserve that way, and it's not "approved" by the manufacturer...


Chris

(please don't open my reserve container or ask about the last ride(s) on the reserve...)

[rigging65 0]

Quote

If you hang it over your shoulder, the bottom skin will be very well organized, but you have to redress the top skin. The reverse is true for the flat pro (PRO-stack)pack.

IMO, if you pack over your shoulder, yes, you end up reorganizing the top skin on the ground, however, the opposite is not true of the Pro-Stack. If you do it right, you organize all the layers at once (and only need to do it once) if you pack on the ground. You also get a "last look" at the packjob before you flake the tail down...so you can check the line placement and folds.

As has been said, it doesn't matter how you get there, as long as you end up with a clean packjob...I've just found the Pro-Stack to be faster (and I hate doing things twice! ).

"...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward.
For there you have been, and there you long to return..."