'Singing' wings

[ziboulateur 0]

Here we go... buzzing wingsuits... who would have thought ?

http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn7867

..or maybe it would be just like putting 100 vibrating cellphones on your skin...brrrr

[LouDiamond 1]

There is another company currently using a "film" coating on airplane wings based off of research done on the Mako sharks scale pattern that increases lift and reduces surface separation that looks promising as well.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[The111 0]

Even if this concept does somehow create a significant improvement in near-stall flight (which I am a little doubtful of, but I will keep an open mind), the following logic is dangerous thinking.

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But the technique could have other advantages. The size of a small plane’s wings is determined by the need to avoid stalls during take-off and landing. “So if you use this device to improve lift at low speed, you can potentially decrease wing size,” says Salmon, thereby reducing the plane’s weight and its fuel requirements.

Somewhat along the lines of "with the introduction of AAD's, we can all join big ways that we couldn't before".

I agree I would not like to be vibrating in flight though. Maybe if we all go flying when it is very cold, and we are shivering (vibrating) very hard, we can fly our suits much slower?

The "film" idea, on the other hand, I think could be a much better thing for both us and airplanes...

www.WingsuitPhotos.com

[Trae 1]

Perhaps we would all have our own specific whistling noise vibration which produced different tones so that flocking would sound like an orchestra................ perhaps not

[cobaltdan 0]

not to try to detract from the article but did want to point out that this is not new technology.

we have been using this technique for trajectory control of spinning projectiles for many years.

if you go to the aiaa website and search on tony calise (atair's senior scientist) or search under micro adaptive flow control you will find a wealth of information in published papers.

facinating stuff.

Daniel Preston <><>
atairaerodynamics.com (sport)
atairaerospace.com (military)

[Trae 1]

Would it be an advantage to have the low pressure top skin of a canopy draw the micro-boundary layer flow down through the skin between these little bumps further decreasing the pressure on the top skin?
Could the ram air pressure be used to further increase the under surface high pressure boundary zones somehow.?

It has occurred to me that if some form of venturi effect was used in conjunction with partial airlocking of the rear of the chord there may be some lift advantages at high speeds and high ram-air pressurisation.
The inner part of the canopy or wing could be shaped to give this venturi effect. The outlets of the venturi could be located towards the rear half of the bottom surface and designed so that sufficient RA pressurisation is maintained and the high pressure created in the venturi be distributed to the lower boundary layer.

In visualising this effect there would have to be a very tight skin surface otherwise it seems any advantages would be negated by the fabric absorbing rather than transmiting any extra lift achieved.
If this did work somehow perhaps it would be more applicable to wingsuit RA wings as they could be manually tightened rather than just relying on RA pressure.

Bit like a blown wing in miniature using RA pressure rather than jet efflux.
????? any aerodynamicists out there help with this one?

I know my ideas are stupid until I see some-one pick them up and run away with them

[kallend 1,623]

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Would it be an advantage to have the low pressure top skin of a canopy draw the micro-boundary layer flow down through the skin between these little bumps further decreasing the pressure on the top skin?
Could the ram air pressure be used to further increase the under surface high pressure boundary zones somehow.?

It has occurred to me that if some form of venturi effect was used in conjunction with partial airlocking of the rear of the chord there may be some lift advantages at high speeds and high ram-air pressurisation.
The inner part of the canopy or wing could be shaped to give this venturi effect. The outlets of the venturi could be located towards the rear half of the bottom surface and designed so that sufficient RA pressurisation is maintained and the high pressure created in the venturi be distributed to the lower boundary layer.

In visualising this effect there would have to be a very tight skin surface otherwise it seems any advantages would be negated by the fabric absorbing rather than transmiting any extra lift achieved.
If this did work somehow perhaps it would be more applicable to wingsuit RA wings as they could be manually tightened rather than just relying on RA pressure.

Bit like a blown wing in miniature using RA pressure rather than jet efflux.
????? any aerodynamicists out there help with this one?

I know my ideas are stupid until I see some-one pick them up and run away with them

I think you are not fully understanding the mechanics of pressurization of a ram-air canopy.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Trae 1]

in rep 2 'I think you are not fully understanding the mechanics of pressurization of a ram-air canopy.'
...
What I do understand is that this is not the correct forum to express such ideas.
The mechanics of RA pressurisation.....YAWN......(DUR)



I'm talking enhancing lift by improving the micro boundary layer flow dynamics perhaps by using a venturi effect (venturi inside wing top surface scavenging- lower surface pumping) if possible....???? while maintaining a suitable RA pressure as well perhaps by using airlocks separate to the proposed venturi section.

Too big for this put down arena?
I think you might not know what I'm getting at here.
But you're right I don't pretend to fully understand ANYTHING.

[sirenoremac 0]

First, I wouldn't reccomend getting into a physics arguement of any kind with the professor. Second, this is extremely old news in aerodynaimcs. Ten years plus. Rest assured that if it could be applied as effectively as the article makes it seem, it would have already been done. The aerospace industry is always looking for anything, ever so slight, that is truly beneficial. It doesn't take much cost saving to make a huge difference in an industry where a single product cost $100 million. And as far as applicability to ram-air flight goes, there is zilch. Systems of this type are very complex, even on a rigid wing. As far as this venturi effect idea goes, I'm not sure I understand what you're suggesting, but if I'm picturing it correctly, just the manufacture of such a system, made completely from fabric, would be absurd. But perhaps I am not getting the idea right.

[kallend 1,623]

Quote

in rep 2 'I think you are not fully understanding the mechanics of pressurization of a ram-air canopy.'
...
What I do understand is that this is not the correct forum to express such ideas.
The mechanics of RA pressurisation.....YAWN......(DUR)



I'm talking enhancing lift by improving the micro boundary layer flow dynamics perhaps by using a venturi effect (venturi inside wing top surface scavenging- lower surface pumping) if possible....???? while maintaining a suitable RA pressure as well perhaps by using airlocks separate to the proposed venturi section.

Too big for this put down arena?
I think you might not know what I'm getting at here.
But you're right I don't pretend to fully understand ANYTHING.

Why don't you draw a picture of it if you think you're being misunderstood? I have free access to a very nice, big, wind tunnel when you're ready to test.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Trae 1]

in reply to sirenoremac's ' Systems of this type are very complex, even on a rigid wing. As far as this venturi effect idea goes, I'm not sure I understand what you're suggesting, but if I'm picturing it correctly, just the manufacture of such a system, made completely from fabric, would be absurd. But perhaps I am not getting the idea right. "

At least you had the decency to include 'perhaps' along with your use of the word "absurd" .
As to getting into arguments with professors ..it wouldn't be the first time and hopefully not the last.

in reply to kallends ' Why don't you draw a picture of it if you think you're being misunderstood? I have free access to a very nice, big, wind tunnel when you're ready to test. "

You'll have to be a bit nicer before I feel inclined to do as you suggest
Although the free wind tunnel access must be lotsa fun.

However I didn't come here for an argument ..I came hear to express an idea I had.

As I stated in my original attempt to describe my idea I feel that a canopies fabric surface would absorb any benefits (with the venturi concept) and that this idea would probably be more suitable to say a Wingsuit ram air wing with a much stiffer surface .

However that said I still feel that this could be possible with a very stiff surface generated at high speeds and the resultant higher internal pressures.

Simplifying this concept somewhat ...a 'half way' IDEA is the following....I was wondering if the pressure created within the ram air wing would be at a higher pressure than the high pressure zone created beneath the airfoil. Therefore if this higher pressure could be 'leaked or pumped into the HP zone beneath the wing some lift advantages may ensue.

Remember this is an idea ..and an extension of already existing technology (the shark skin bits) To be shot down so quickly makes me wonder if I've hit on something worth pursuing.

More please.

• Quote

[kallend 1,623]

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Simplifying this concept somewhat ...a 'half way' IDEA is the following....I was wondering if the pressure created within the ram air wing would be at a higher pressure than the high pressure zone created beneath the airfoil.

.

The pressure inside the ram air wing HAS to be higher than the pressure outside, or the wing would collapse. The fact that you even ask the question ....

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Therefore if this higher pressure could be 'leaked or pumped into the HP zone beneath the wing some lift advantages may ensue.

Quote

To be shot down so quickly makes me wonder if I've hit on something worth pursuing.

Yes, all previous knowledge of fluid dynamics is wrong.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Trae 1]

inreply to "The pressure inside the ram air wing HAS to be higher than the pressure outside, or the wing would collapse. The fact that you even ask the question .... "

And so IS there an advantage to transferring this higher pressure to the high pressure zone beneath the airfoil.?????.....(this is like leading a little kiddie ,,,but we'll get there ...just keep footing one poot down in front of the other )

in reply to'Yes, all previous knowledge of fluid dynamics is wrong. '..........................................................

If you're teaching it I'm not surprised.

the fact that I even bothered with this here is more of an issue.................

[The111 0]

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And so IS there an advantage to transferring this higher pressure to the high pressure zone beneath the airfoil.

Sure, if you consider a loss of pressurization to be an advantage.

Quote

And so IS there an advantage to transferring this higher pressure to the high pressure zone beneath the airfoil.?????.....(this is like leading a little kiddie ,,,but we'll get there ...just keep pooting one poot down in front of the other )

Where should we "poot" our feet next? You're the one continually asking questions; that's hardly leading us...

www.WingsuitPhotos.com

[Trae 1]

in reply to The111's "You're the one continually asking questions; that's hardly leading us... "

Never heard of a leading question?

..and since when has asking questions been a bad thing when you want to learn something.?

Only around here I'd guess

Do you know that a venturi replaces the pressure by the very nature of the flow through it.....starting to get some where???? but it's not me that's learning here except how to talk with people who appear quicker to put something down they don't understand rather than being open to other people's ideas.

But thank you ....it's been very edumacational ..... just a bit too off topic for me.



You take the high road and he takes the low road ...me I'm goin flyin'

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[kallend 1,623]

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in reply to The111's "You're the one continually asking questions; that's hardly leading us... "

Never heard of a leading question?

..and since when has asking questions been a bad thing when you want to learn something.?

Only around here I'd guess

Do you know that a venturi replaces the pressure by the very nature of the flow through it.....starting to get some where???? but it's not me that's learning here except how to talk with people who appear quicker to put something down they don't understand rather than being open to other people's ideas.

But thank you ....it's been very edumacational ..... just a bit too off topic for me.



You take the high road and he takes the low road ...me I'm goin flyin'

Maybe you should have asked the basic questions about fluid dynamics BEFORE you impressed us all with your ideas for a revolution in ram-air wing design.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kallend 1,623]

Quote

inreply to "The pressure inside the ram air wing HAS to be higher than the pressure outside, or the wing would collapse. The fact that you even ask the question .... "

And so IS there an advantage to transferring this higher pressure to the high pressure zone beneath the airfoil.?????.....(this is like leading a little kiddie ,,,but we'll get there ...just keep footing one poot down in front of the other )

You tell us - it's your idea. Maybe you'll explain how the net lift is improved (and that involves forces on both surfaces of the wing) by leaking air from inside to the bottom. You know, foo one poot for us simpletons.

Quote

in reply to'Yes, all previous knowledge of fluid dynamics is wrong. '..........................................................

If you're teaching it I'm not surprised.

the fact that I even bothered with this here is more of an issue.................

So do you have a PhD in aero engineering? It would be nice to know your qualifications.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Trae 1]

in reply to "Maybe you should have asked the basic questions about fluid dynamics BEFORE you impressed us all with your ideas for a revolution in ram-air wing design. "
...

Impressed were you ? revolution you think? Not my intention just trying to express an idea in a forum where I thought such crude unformed ideas may have been welcome.

I lernt..... you helped teech me.

Another idea of mine ????...inflato sharks for use in chat rooms to devour creativity....but maybe you've already got one sitting on your shoulders?


hint... it's in that HP zone.

[LouDiamond 1]

OK, before this degrades into outright name calling. We are lucky to have a diverse and very educated group of people,some of which are directly involved with inventing and manufacturing skydiving related products, right here on Dropzone.com. However, I suggest that if you actually have an idea that you present it and not take offense when you're given a truthful answer by someone who makes a living teaching in the field. This and every forum is open to ideas but do not become offended if your idea turns out to not be as great of an idea as you thought.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[Trae 1]

point taken Lou,

Thing is my detractors had nothing to offer on topic except just rubbishing my idea....without saying why or having anything to offer except sideways putdowns.

If that's the accepted standard of 'discussion' and how people with ideas get treated here then pretty poor in my estimation.



.

[The111 0]

I told you exactly what would happen if you took pressure out of the inside of the inflated wing - you would lose pressure (go figure). The wing would collapse (partially or totally, depending on how much pressure you take out of it).

www.WingsuitPhotos.com

[TomAiello 25]

I have and jump a canopy which effectively transfers pressure from the inside to the bottom surface. This is a (last-generation) FOX Vtec BASE canopy. It has open, 2 way vents on the bottom skin. These lead to a weaker flare, and a tendency to "accordion" and lose stability during hard toggle turns. BASE canopies have since moved on to one way valves that allow pressure transfer between bottom and interior in only one direction (inward).

-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[Trae 1]

in reply to "The wing would collapse (partially or totally, depending on how much pressure you take out of it). "

Yeah OK but what if the pressure was being replaced as quickly or quicker than it was being taken out?

If this only happened at very high speeds there could be a surplus of high press if the inlet -outlet design allowed for it--- as in a one way valve (inside to outside underneath) of some description (perhaps on a micro level eg built/moulded into the fabric itself ).
I know this sounds a bit out there ( it hasn't been particularly easy for me to put this idea into words ) and no doubt this would be problematic to achieve technically ... and would be a difficult problem in fluid mechanics /dynamics...but it's just an idea .
I bet who ever first suggested the Ram jet motor to the wrong people got mocked and put down too.

in reply to TomAiello's "I have and jump a canopy which effectively transfers pressure from the inside to the bottom surface. This is a (last-generation) FOX Vtec BASE canopy. It has open, 2 way vents on the bottom skin. These lead to a weaker flare, and a tendency to "accordion" and lose stability during hard toggle turns. BASE canopies have since moved on to one way valves that allow pressure transfer between bottom and interior in only one direction (inward).

I recall some experiments done with high pressure air being pumped from jet engines thru pin holes in the bottom surface of airfoils. The idea being that the Hp zone beneath the wing could be enhanced upping the pressure & thereby increasing lift.( I seem to recall there were some + lift advantages.)

Same thing for my little idea only here using excess high pressure created within the ram-airfoil (not by jet efflux )and maintained by some constant flow 'venturi" design. ...

I wonder if any viewers know how different the ZP top skin /F111 bottom skin canopies perform compared to all ZP ones of the same design?
I understand the F111 gives easier packing qualities but does it reduce flight performance significantly due to high pressure leakage through the F111 bottom surface.?
If there was a band of F111 extending across the bottom surface about half way along the chord & the lower leading edges and trailing edges still made from ZP..this may come close to what I'm getting at.

The trouble I'm having here is that it's much easier to imagine this than to put it into words .

my experience here trying to discuss this has felt a bit like trying to describe how a scramjet works in 10 words or less and then being blasted when every-one don't get it.. (no doubt such a 10 word desription is possible but that doesn't mean any-one else would understand what was said or even believe it could work based on such a description.)

Anyway it's still a learning process...I just wish future replies could be a bit less like " how absurd" or " you obviously don't know ..etc" and a bit more like " just don't get where you're comin' from with this . "

Cheers ( oh dears)

[whatever 0]

the idea you are describing is based on airfoils producing lift due to Bernoulli's Principle

I have heard from several sources that this has been challenged fairly succesfully and that airfoils' mechanism of creating lift is Newtonian.

I'm hoping some very educated and knowledgeable folk will comment on this.

thanks!

sam

soon to be gone

[kallend 1,623]

Quote

the idea you are describing is based on airfoils producing lift due to Bernoulli's Principle

I have heard from several sources that this has been challenged fairly succesfully and that airfoils' mechanism of creating lift is Newtonian.

I'm hoping some very educated and knowledgeable folk will comment on this.

thanks!

sam

There is no contradiction between Bernoulli's theorem and Newtonian physics. The "problem" (if there is one) is improper application of Bernoulli's theorem by people who don't know how to do physics.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.