Coaches taking harness grips

[popsjumper 2]

No, top, it was not directed at you. You aren't a 100-jump wonder by a long shot.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[popsjumper 2]

Yes, I know that. I noted "Strictly for demonstration purposes" to show that the book does not specifically say 10-way...or 11-way...or 12-way.

Believe it or not, asking around, I heard, "...it says maximum 4 but that doesn't mean we can't do an 8-way if 4 of them are Coaches."

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[davelepka 4]

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I think I've been insulted, but in all my "100-jump wisdom," I'm not sure

I'm sure you realize that was not directed at you.

If there was someone who could vet each person on their own abilities, and assign them responsibilities based on that, then you might have a point being insulted.

The fact of the matter is that you hold a rating available to jumpers with as few as 100 jumps, so in designating the level of responsibility a coach, it has to be done with the 'least common demonenator' in mind. If it's not something you want a 100-jump wonder doing, than you cannot have it fall under the responsibilities for a coach.

[topdocker 0]

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I think I've been insulted, but in all my "100-jump wisdom," I'm not sure

I'm sure you realize that was not directed at you.

If there was someone who could vet each person on their own abilities, and assign them responsibilities based on that, then you might have a point being insulted.

The fact of the matter is that you hold a rating available to jumpers with as few as 100 jumps, so in designating the level of responsibility a coach, it has to be done with the 'least common demonenator' in mind. If it's not something you want a 100-jump wonder doing, than you cannot have it fall under the responsibilities for a coach.

No, as a Coach it is directed at me. 100 jumps is the minimum to take the course. It is up to the CCD to evaluate if the candidate has the minimum skills to fulfill the rating. If he/she does not, the he/she should not have a rating, simple enough.

Just like AFFI, there is no "main side only." Either you trust them to work with a student in most situations or you they don't have a rating.

top

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[popsjumper 2]

Top,
Again, please don't extrapolate 100-jump wonder to include yourself, either personally or as a Coach. This is not about you nor your evaluations of course candidates.

We all know that passing a course, regardless of how good it was, does not make anyone a top dog in the skydiving world....at Coach level nor at AFFI level nor at any level.

I don't know of a CCD that lets candidates practice harness holds during the the course. I'm not convinced that they come out of the course knowing the potentials of mishandling a harness hold. If YOU teach that, then my hat is off to you in the sense that you at least are teaching them good stuff that will make them better and safer Coaches.

So with being said, I stand by my assertion that Coaches doing harness holds is not a good idea in the big scheme of things...whether it allowed by the USPA or not. Just call me an old, very conservative fuddy-duddy and I would be happy with that.

Thanks for the discussion, Top. It's nice to have a discussion on DZ.com without the typical BS postings.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[davelepka 4]

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100 jumps is the minimum to take the course. It is up to the CCD to evaluate if the candidate has the minimum skills to fulfill the rating.

True, and as such, the scope of the rating is limited to what the average 100-jump jumper could handle. Again, the rating is built around the lowest common denomenator, that being the 100-jump coach, and while this may be a limiting factor to the 6000+ jump coach, it's the way it needs to be in the interest of the students.

Look at it this way, I took my kid to the go-kart track where anyone over 58" tall is allowed to drive. If Mario Andretti showed up at the track, he would still get the same 9hp go-kart that my 13 year ol son gets. Surely Mario could handle a more powerful kart, but the track allows anyone over 58" tall to drive, and 9hp is what they feel the average person over 58" tall could handle, so everyone is limited to that type of cart.

To take the example one step further, if someone was talking about the karts at that track are so slow, they would mention that it's because that's what the least skilled drivers allowed could handle. Surely they are not talking about Mario, and I doubt that Mario would take it that way.

Nobody is suggesting you or your skills are on par with a 100-jump wonder. Your coach rating, on the other hand, is identical to that of a 100-jump wonder.

[topdocker 0]

I get what you guys are saying and appreciate it.

It is nice to get some intelligent conversations in here!

top

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[riggerrob 558]

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We're not talking about AFF jumps either. But everywhere you read about harness holds it specifically mentions AFF-I's. Which would lead one to believe they are the only ones to do it. One thing I learned in the coach course is that the SIM makes a lot of assumptions. Did you know that according to the SIM a student is not required to wear shoes or a jumpsuit? So would you let a student jump naked and with no shoes? No. Same idea here.

But it's not ILLEGAL. How many tandem STUDENTS have you seen jump without a jumpsuit?

True. But that doesn't make it right.

...................................................................

A reasonable compromise might be to dress tandem students in freefly pants - but only during the hotter months.
By the time air temperature at exit altitude approaches freezing, all tandem students will be glad to wear full-length jumpsuits.

[Designer 0]

Depends on the student.I like working with the student on exit.Exits are such a big part of how the skydive will evolve.If you plan & execute the exit right,the rest of the skydive seems to flow smoothly.

[VideoFly 0]

In reference to harness grips on a student, I was told during my coach course, not to do it.

[mjosparky 3]

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Please tell me of a FS formation that requires a harness grip.

http://flic.kr/p/aotMDp

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[theonlyski 3]

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In reference to harness grips on a student, I was told during my coach course, not to do it.

That's what I was getting at, seems to be no standardization on this subject.

Check out the poll results so far.

"I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly
DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890
I'm an asshole, and I approve this message

[captain_stan 0]

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That's what I was getting at, seems to be no standardization on this subject.

Unless, of course, you're willing to consider the USPA as an authority. Some valid reasons have been aired as to why it's a bad idea for a coach to take harness grips, but the USPA doesn't officially prohibit this. Everything prohibited by the USPA is enumerated in the BSRs--all you have to do is read these and note the absence of any such rule. The reason you can't find it is because it's not there. The fact that half of the survey responses are flat-out incorrect is testemant that most skydivers and many instructors never read the BSRs.

I've held a USPA instructional rating since 1994 and a CCD during that time, conducting a number of certification courses. I distinctly remember a time when BSRs did indeed prohibited non-AFF-qualified persons from harness-holds on students, but this was ammended and removed some years ago. The AFF community has been bitching about it ever since.