instability/acrobatics

[The111 1]

When doing my first jump one question I had for my instructor was what to do if I got very unstable (flat spin, upside down, or something). He said the best solution was prevention. Makes sense for a first jump maybe, but I think I might disagree a bit. On my second jump I bumped shoulders pretty hard with the S3 flyer I was with. I got spun 180 degrees away from him hard but corrected and was back on course immediately.

I'm curious what would happen though if something knocked me onto my back, into a flat spin, loop, or barrel roll. I would assume most experienced flyers have tried these things. I even saw a short clip once of a girl flying a WS head down. Keeping in mind that I only have 5 flights to my name right now and don't want to get in over my head... is it a good idea to intentionally try to mix it up so that you know you can recover from hairy situations? I.e. do a barrel roll, try to backfly, ball up and fall like shit for 500 feet and recover, things like that? It seems reasonable to me and I think it would make me a more confident flyer. But my instructor who has many jumps to his name seemed quite a bit scared of flat spins, making them sound like some sort of magnetic field that sucks you in and doesn't let you out. He said he's never had one and hopes not to. Almost sounded like he doubted his ability to recover from one. But I know a guy named Mike (Aviatrr on these forums) who got an S3 with relatively few BM jumps to his name, got into a flat spin on his back one of his first jumps (post here) and recovered from it very quickly.

On all my jumps so far I have been perfectly stable and upright save the one quick 180 spin from my shoulder bump with the S3. To me, it makes sense that just like freefall, it would be good to know I can find stability from any situation, but my instructor seemed to think otherwise...

So, would I be creating any risk if on a solo jump, I balled up all my shit and flailed uncontrollably for 500 feet and tried to recover from it?

www.WingsuitPhotos.com

[bodypilot1 0]

Did you recieve instruction from a qualified Birdman Instructor?
Or is this someone that just has a suit and explained some things to you about how to fly it?

www.WestCoastWingsuits.com
www.PrecisionSkydiving.com

[SkymonkeyONE 3]

Matt, in the smaller suits it's very simple to simply arch, "roll out of bed" and fly out of any situation. Once you gain a bit of "standard" experience, simply start rolling (half barrel roll) onto your back and give back flying a try; it's not hard. I have never found myself in a situation that I could not fly myself out of, but have seen more than a few people get into tail-spins in S3's and have to ball up, then fly out.

[jmfreefly 0]

My first flight instructor, the late Rob Tonneson, http://www.skydiveelsinore.com/photo-gallery/new-photos/birdmanrob.html, told me that he would intentionally try to become unstable up high to practice recovery. He did it on many jumps (even did it on our first flight) to practice.

The key is - up high. This gives you time to recover normally, or if needed, time to chop your wings and recover.

Think about it this way: How do you know you will be able to cutaway and pull your reserve on a normal jump? Well, because you practice it in your mind, practice it in a hanging harness, and hopefully practice it when your reserve is out of date.

Recovering from instability is part of AFF training, that is the real reason they teach you front and back loops -- to ensure you can recover.

Planning a dive flow that includes these things, and executing that dive flow up high (and probably solo) is a good idea, imho. I think if you don't have confidence that you can recover, then you are jumping with a big question mark -- someday you will become unstable unintentionally, as you have seen already.

There have been a few articles / blurbs about recovery from flat spins, which are a good resource, along with some posts here on dz.com. And I am sure Scott will point you to a BMI for in-depth discussions.
j

[The111 1]

BMI. Maybe I just misunderstood him.

www.WingsuitPhotos.com

[PhreeZone 15]

There are two different levels of BMI's. There is the new school ones that had to pass a test and go through a program similar to an AFF-IC to get their rating and then there is the old school ones that were basically awarded ratings since they had a suit and asked (it was harder then that, but not near the new class stuff)... which one was your instructor?

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[bodypilot1 0]

Quote

BMI. Maybe I just misunderstood him.

***Thats GOOD.
As I have told some of the students I have trained. "If you dont understand something I have told you, or you may need to have it explained in a different way to maybe understand it better, PLEASE ask personaly and not in a forum such as this were you may possible get the wrong information.
There are BMI's in here that can help you with what questions you need answered, maybe PM them directly.
Try and get ALL your information from a BMI if at all possible.Be safe

www.WestCoastWingsuits.com
www.PrecisionSkydiving.com

[The111 1]

***
As I have told some of the students I have trained. "If you dont understand something I have told you, or you may need to have it explained in a different way to maybe understand it better, PLEASE ask personaly and not in a forum such as this were you may possible get the wrong information.

[LouDiamond 1]

Good questions, I'm glad your thinking about these things now and while you're on the ground. First off, recovering from instability issues and flat spins should of been discussed during your ground training. Just like AFF there is a possibility you may become unstable at some point, recovery is very much the same for Birdman flights. The one major difference is the flat spin which in my personal experience is not entirely flat but rather on all axis. It is very hard to get out of using just the roll over and arch approach if not entirely impossible. The only quick and sure way to recover from a flat spin is to ball up or cannon ball ie: knees on chest with arm and leg wings closed. The flat spin will usually stop as soon as you do this in a matter of seconds. You will however continue to tumble ass over kettle or what ever orientation you find yourself in. Stopping the spin is the crucial part, the tumbling is easily fixed with everything you've already learned about skydiving and recovering from instability. Once you find yourself simply tumbling you need to time it so when you see ground you open your arms and begin to fly, this will stop the tumble, then you can straighten your legs and open the tail wing and resume flying as normal.

You will undoubtedly learn more about this as you continue to fly and either start doing acrobatics or as you experienced already, when you bump into another flyer. It would not be a bad idea to take a solo flight and while up high and headed back to the DZ initiate a few front/ back loops and barrel rolls. They are done the same way as you'd do them without a suit on. Back flying is a little bit more complicated but very much the same. The important thing to remember is to have a plan before you leave the A/C of what you will work on and most importantly, what actions you will take if X happens. Let me caveat this with the following: Always pull stable. If you are unstable get stable before pulling. If you are unstable and you cannot get stable and you are going to impact the ground you need to get something out before you impact the earth. Otherwise, relax, have fun and smile alot while doing it.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[rustik 0]

Very interesting thread this guys....
I don't have many wingsuit jumps and will think about this technique for some of the future ones, am sure it will develop more confidence... in fact it can only develop more confidence and therefore make it even more enjoyable!

thanks for posting

If it's safe it ain't fun