Possible CF National Date Changes

[topdocker 0]

The dates for the CF portion of the Nationals this year in Chicago may be changing!

The reason is that both Clean Air and Redline have been invited to China for an international air show to demonstrate CF. It's a huge honor for those involved and for the US. However, the dates for the Nationals and the air show overlap a bit.

What USPA is proposing to do is move the CF competition up, with registration on the 15th, competition starting on the 16th, running through the 20th. We are trying to keep the number of competitors up, so CF is not eliminated due to lack of participation, and making it so two teams could not come may be a problem for us in the long run.

Please be aware of this possibility and let me know if there are other conflicts.

thanks,
Craig Stapleton

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[leapdog 0]

So when will we know if the dates have actually changes and that is solid with no more changes?

Some of us have already reserved lodging and need to take advantage of cheap plane tickets by getting them earlier than later.


Can USPA decide and decide fast and then stick with it? The concern is that another team, based on the change and if the change comes too slow, won't be able to make it. That would be self defeating for the reason of the change in the first place. Just trading one team for another.

Gunnery Sergeant of Marines
"I would like it if I were challenged mentally at my job and not feel like I'm mentally challenged." - Co-worker

[CReW 0]

Which honor is huger, Doing some airshow in China or competing in the United States Nationals?
Maybe you should tell China better luck next time.

[topdocker 0]

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Which honor is huger, Doing some airshow in China or competing in the United States Nationals?
Maybe you should tell China better luck next time.

Both are an honor and we are trying to do both.

The trip to China is PR for our sport, our discipline, and our organization. We are trying to go to the nationals as well, as every team present is going to make a difference in keeping CRW alive as a discipline. We are close to losing 8-way, and last year we had the minimum number of teams for 4-way to hand out all the medals.

I'm trying to see how many teams are even going to the nationals this year, and if anyone cares if the dates are changed by a few days.

CReW, you got a team, or just a comment?

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[CReW 0]

Hey No Problem.

Just have them change the date of the airshow.

[ScoobieDoo 0]

I just got a comment cause I'm no skygod/dog. Sounds like your saying that going to China has some great importance on crw and will affect us greatly back here in AMERICA. So we should let them tell us when we should have OUR "AIRSHOW" so you can play at both places. If YOU really think that it matters so much that you particpate in the "Nationals" as to it might affect CRW in the future "Nationals" then maybe you should decide what is more important and maybe express that to China and have them move their dates for you instead.

[topdocker 0]

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I just got a comment cause I'm no skygod/dog.

So, I can stop reading right there. This is for the CF comp people. If you have a team and a plan to compete, I would like to hear from you, otherwise....
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[CReW 0]

Otherwise what? Just because someone doesn't have a team in the Nationals this year doesn't mean that they don't care about it being the best it can be. There are a lot of non-competitors that care very much about the Nationals. I'd say every USPA members concern about their Nationals is valid and merits at least listening to. I'm surprised you don't. Maybe most people feel that it's OK to mess with the dates of the Nationals after they have been set so a team can go do a demo. Yea they probably do.

[leapdog 0]

I have a team and I plan to be at nationals- Sorry for the long post.

PR for our sport where? in China? Will we recruit the chinese to move to the US and become CRW jumpers and eventually U.S. national comptetitors? Not very likely. The gerneral chinese public doesn't care about skydiving in the US. Hell the average public in the U.S. don't care about skydiving in the U.S. How does PR in CHina help us here in the U.S.

We as a community should support each other. However, the concern is how many of us will have to sacrafic something for it though when the glory of such an invite will not actually be felt by all who may directly or indirectly give something for the effort. What stands to be gained in the US for going to showcase CF in China? Will we grow CF here by going to China?
The original post sounds like a demo personally but I have been wrong in the past too. I do demos and usually those are paid. [edit] no one started doing CF as a rsult of a demo I did [edit] I do remember nationals being temoprarily on hold for a demo in the recent past [edit] Eloy [edit]. Not very well recieved but not vocally protested either. Examining this further, if I had a high profile demo and it conflicted with nationals I don't think USPA would even consider changing the nationals CF schedule to accomodate me. I would have to make a choice for one or the other.
Small fish in a large pond so to speak.

So is it really fair to ask USPA to change the national schedule because someone else may be larger fish when they typically don't show at nationals on an off year? Or even for someone who does? I don't have the answers and not trying to provide any. Just the question does beg to be asked why the special consideration? Last year there were was small worry that there was not enough teams for 2 way. There ended up being five. Same with Pro-am. Not sure as my memory isn't up yet but Red line didn't compete in every event and 4 way CRW still survived at nationals. Now I'm not saying they aren't needed but one would have to ask themselves when put in the same situation, is it morally right to ask USPA for special consideration when no one else would get a second glance if they asked for the same?

As I said before I hope the decision is made quickly so we can all move on with our travel plans for nationals without spending too much, fees, or losing reservations.

Just so I'm clear, The reason I mention that the international airshow sounds like a demo event is that I can't imagine that someone would travel all the way around the world from the east coast or half way from California and not get paid to demonstrate CF. Most certainly the travel to get there is being paid for. That is a lot of money to pay out of pocket to jump for free.

I'm confident in saying that no one cares if someone from CRW gets to go get a huge paycheck and then still come to nationals to mop up the gold. If the dates line up then go do it by all means and congrats on being asked. However, it sounds like you are asking all of us to say have your cake and eat it too, its ok. If nationals is that important then come to nationals and skip china. Skydiving was ok before [edit] the international airshow [edit] this event and it will be ok after.

Perhaps Someone from Red Line or Clean Air can clear [edit] the whole demo thing [edit] that up for us before the whole community throws thier hand in the air in fustration.

I want a reason to support our friends. I do also want nationals to go on the orginal dates so I don't have to change my reservations either. Or perhaps they all would be willing to pay the fees associated with having to change reservations. IF it is that important to change nationals for an international airshow.

Gunnery Sergeant of Marines
"I would like it if I were challenged mentally at my job and not feel like I'm mentally challenged." - Co-worker

[FreeFlyer2100 0]

This is my first year going to nationals and as you can probably imagine arranging travel and schedules for 5 team members living in 4 different states is no easy task. We have already arranged housing reservations and are working on travel plans now, when can we expect a decision to be made on this? Can we trust that the dates will not change after a certain date? We have been doing a lot of training and are very excited to compete at nationals but this changing of dates could really mess things up. Who has the final say in this date change and can we hear from them? Hope something can be decided soon.

Todd

[sedwick 0]

Since this is in the effort to keep CF from being eliminated due to lack of competitors will Redline and Clean Air participate in 8-way (which I believe MUST go or else it's gone from nationals) and ProAM? These events encourage pups and young dogs (like myself) to come to nationals.

8-way is easier to get a slot since a second team is always needed. If we have a lot of Pros committed to ProAm it might encourage more pups to show up hoping to make a team.

[leapdog 0]

Todd- The competion community and I think Larry Bagely is the USPA people who are ultimately charge.

user name Sedwick-
* edited to say* Good question. What is the intent of these two teams at nationals that they want to attend both events. What events will they support. Last year neither cared about 8 way and only one supported Pro-am. I only remember one of the teams supporting 2 way sequential open also.

The dates being moved or not still allow for both 4 way events to be attended.

As said before, more clarity form these teams is needed.

Gunnery Sergeant of Marines
"I would like it if I were challenged mentally at my job and not feel like I'm mentally challenged." - Co-worker

[topdocker 0]

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user name Sedwick-
* edited to say* Good question. What is the intent of these two teams at nationals that they want to attend both events. What events will they support. Last year neither cared about 8 way and only one supported Pro-am. I only remember one of the teams supporting 2 way sequential open also.

As said before, more clarity form these teams is needed.

Hey leapdog, your recollection of last year is a little weak. Redline intended to do 8way, but two of our team members were killed on a practice jump a month prior, so we opted out. We intended to do 2way and pro-am. Sorry, we didn't stick around for the 2way, but we had a team member (and her husband) who had to get home for some much need rest and healing (one was injured in 4way). We "care" about all the events, and have been supporting the nationals for twenty years.

To answer everyone's question about this air show. It is not a "demo" in the normal sense. It is a large international air show that the FAI and IPC are hoping to have host a World Air Games in the future. Since they have not had CF performed much there, they would like to see it at the air show by people that may attend the WAG and decide if it would be something to have.

Ultimately, this is up to the meet director, Bill Wenger, and the comp committee. I am trying to get feedback from competitors who may be affected by these changes and minimize the effects.

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[leapdog 0]

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user name Sedwick-
* edited to say* Good question. What is the intent of these two teams at nationals that they want to attend both events. What events will they support. Last year neither cared about 8 way and only one supported Pro-am. I only remember one of the teams supporting 2 way sequential open also.

As said before, more clarity form these teams is needed.

Hey leapdog, your recollection of last year is a little weak. Redline intended to do 8way, but two of our team members were killed on a practice jump a month prior, so we opted out. We intended to do 2way and pro-am. Sorry, we didn't stick around for the 2way, but we had a team member (and her husband) who had to get home for some much need rest and healing (one was injured in 4way). We "care" about all the events, and have been supporting the nationals for twenty years.

To answer everyone's question about this air show. It is not a "demo" in the normal sense. It is a large international air show that the FAI and IPC are hoping to have host a World Air Games in the future. Since they have not had CF performed much there, they would like to see it at the air show by people that may attend the WAG and decide if it would be something to have.

Ultimately, this is up to the meet director, Bill Wenger, and the comp committee. I am trying to get feedback from competitors who may be affected by these changes and minimize the effects.

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Yes, that's right. last year is coming back to me more clearly.

Thanks for the clarity on the purpose for being in China.

So here is a more direct question- Why should the CRW competition community care about the world air games? If we are haivng trouble keeping it alive in the US for comp, (thus being the reason for the date change) then we should be focusing on that and not the air games that seemingly no one shows to. IF my memory would not fail me again, after the world record at the "formal" dinner I remember the question being asked what the interest for CRW was for games. The answer was very little.

Gunnery Sergeant of Marines
"I would like it if I were challenged mentally at my job and not feel like I'm mentally challenged." - Co-worker

[topdocker 0]

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Otherwise what? Just because someone doesn't have a team in the Nationals this year doesn't mean that they don't care about it being the best it can be. There are a lot of non-competitors that care very much about the Nationals. I'd say every USPA members concern about their Nationals is valid and merits at least listening to. I'm surprised you don't. Maybe most people feel that it's OK to mess with the dates of the Nationals after they have been set so a team can go do a demo. Yea they probably do.

Otherwise you have no input to my data.

I care about the people who will be directly and possibly negatively affected by this. T, "most people" are not the issue here, "most people" (if you are referencing most skydivers) couldn't tell you when the Nationals are, where they are, who goes, what happens, and if you get paid to go or not.

We are changing the dates for CF, but they are staying within the published dates for the Nationals themselves. Precedent for this was set in 1999, when they were changed with much less notice and time. Did you care then?

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[topdocker 0]

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So here is a more direct question- Why should the CRW competition community care about the world air games? If we are haivng trouble keeping it alive in the US for comp, (thus being the reason for the date change) then we should be focusing on that and not the air games that seemingly no one shows to. IF my memory would not fail me again, after the world record at the "formal" dinner I remember the question being asked what the interest for CRW was for games. The answer was very little.

I wasn't at the dinner after the WR, so I have no memory of that. The WR had many competitors, but not every nation was well-represented by its competitors. Consider Egypt, they probably didn't care about a WAG then, but they would now.

I can tell you the WAG in Spain in 2001, was very well-attended. Eleven nations competed in CF? Have to look that one up for an accurate count.

WAG's get more corporate sponsorship, provide a greater venue for our sport to be shown, including TV. One of the major reasons to have it outside the US is because TV is more willing to show skydiving there than they are here. It might get picked up here, afterward.

If the World stage is bigger, is it ultimately better for our sport? Don't know, but it ain't getting better with what we are doing now.

Competition CF is really struggling in the US, if it wasn't, this wouldn't be an issue. Two large, well-known teams missing the Nationals would be okay, but not in the state we are in.

My worry, if Clean Air and Redline are not there, and only one other team shows- the Wisconsin gang. No meet for rotes, sequential, 8way. Could get two way done if they have two camera people. But the next BOD meeting, CF is on the chopping block!

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[leapdog 0]

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So here is a more direct question- Why should the CRW competition community care about the world air games? If we are haivng trouble keeping it alive in the US for comp, (thus being the reason for the date change) then we should be focusing on that and not the air games that seemingly no one shows to. IF my memory would not fail me again, after the world record at the "formal" dinner I remember the question being asked what the interest for CRW was for games. The answer was very little.

I wasn't at the dinner after the WR, so I have no memory of that. The WR had many competitors, but not every nation was well-represented by its competitors. Consider Egypt, they probably didn't care about a WAG then, but they would now.

I can tell you the WAG in Spain in 2001, was very well-attended. Eleven nations competed in CF? Have to look that one up for an accurate count.

WAG's get more corporate sponsorship, provide a greater venue for our sport to be shown, including TV. One of the major reasons to have it outside the US is because TV is more willing to show skydiving there than they are here. It might get picked up here, afterward.

If the World stage is bigger, is it ultimately better for our sport? Don't know, but it ain't getting better with what we are doing now.

Competition CF is really struggling in the US, if it wasn't, this wouldn't be an issue. Two large, well-known teams missing the Nationals would be okay, but not in the state we are in.

My worry, if Clean Air and Redline are not there, and only one other team shows- the Wisconsin gang. No meet for rotes, sequential, 8way. Could get two way done if they have two camera people. But the next BOD meeting, CF is on the chopping block!

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So you are speaking for Clean Air and they are showing up this year?

My team and the WI team is showing so there is two. But if the dates change and we are put out finacially then your purpose is defeated.

Nothing the world stage has done has helped us at home. If it had then we wouldn't be in trouble. Focus here, not there. From what you write they seem to be doing just fine and don't need your help. Who else went to the WAG from the US in the last 5 years. I know one- Clean Air and that was two way.

SO obviously no one in CRW cares about the WAG.

This is in response to your other post-
I have tried to be about a diplomatic as I know how to this point.

Are the dates already changed? So far the statement May be changed is has been made not they are changed and I have not seen a solid "this is the new date" from someone that has authority to do so.

Also we are talking about 2010 not 1999 there are a whole new set of competitors now aside from Red Line and Clean Air.

Obviously someone who is not competeing shouldn't care less when the dates are. The audacity is shocking to me that a peer/ fellow competitor is stating the "dates are changing" as if the competition was being run by them.

That needs to come from the meet director and the competition commitee.


So far this proposition that has been issued has not been well recieved. Other competitors are stating funds changing reservation fees, vacation days alreay submitted ect. If one team doesn't get to go to nationals because he dates get changed and you do how is that helping? Thisis assuking of course that history will repeat itself and Clean air will not be there on an off year.

Gunnery Sergeant of Marines
"I would like it if I were challenged mentally at my job and not feel like I'm mentally challenged." - Co-worker

[ScoobieDoo 0]

Here's another COMMENT. You don't have to respond but others will. I don't count cause I have no team(YET), I know I'm not good nuff for it(YET) and can admit to it. Now what about those of us who wanted to go and watch, we don't count cause we're not a team. WOW that sucks, I thought we had the Nationals so everybody can enjoy watching and learning this stuff. Now I know it's only for teams cause they are the only ones that matter! Not that anybody travels and has to book planes/motels/lodging to this event just to watch and admire the sport. Wonder if all the Nascar fans left if they will still have races? Hmmm, maybe a boycot is needed, maybe sponsors would agree that it only matters to comp. and not to the rest of the jumpers/watchers and not have any worries about it. Who knows, what I do know is that some jumpers who don't get nuff attention just quit and there goes the future of it all. slippery slope your making with this. You also know how bad this situation is and still insist on having it your way?
Nice way of thinking. Yeah you might have help this sport for 20+ years but thats dosen't mean it's your time to take back cause thats never the case in skydiving. It's always a give sport.

[Renegate 0]

I can only, obviously, speak for myself.
I havent jumped much in the past year, and not a lot to talk about under my belt alltogether. The camp at Sebastian I attended last year was a lot of fun and makes me want to participate more in the sport. Nationals are generally a tough thing to attend be it skydiving, fencing, judo or any other such event. Time off work, travel, costs etc. all this puts limits on options and whether attending an event will be possible. For example, attending Nationals in Chicago can be more easily accomplished for someone in the north-east than attending them in California. However, this is not news and is not the point.
If the reason that two of the major CF teams were invited to China to make a pitch for CF being included in WAG, then I can definetly understand the appeal of such an invite. It is generally a good move for the sport albeit not necessarily a big impact for those who compete only in US. Big (professional) teams generally have enough exposure in the worldwide arena, Dubai games, world comptetions, etc. Small, local teams are unlikely to go to the WAG anyway. All this being said, the question is this. If it is important to have a CF presence in China during the air show, why does it have to be US teams. There are plenty of highly trained and capable CF teams in the wolrd to present to sport. I do not see why the invited teams can not politely refuse an invitation explaining the very patriotic reasons (who, if not China, can understand these reasons better) and suggesting an alternative to take their place. Having our presence felt on the world stage is good, but Nationals is about Us and has to take priority. This is IMHO of course.

P.S.
I would like to attend the Nationals this year as it would be much easier to attend them for me this time around (though I have no team and do not feel that I am well prepared for it).

- It's okay to be happy to see me. Just because you're English doesn't mean you need to hide your emotions.
- I'm Irish. We let people know how we feel. Now fuck off.

[topdocker 0]

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Here's another COMMENT. You don't have to respond but others will. I don't count cause I have no team(YET), I know I'm not good nuff for it(YET) and can admit to it. Now what about those of us who wanted to go and watch, we don't count cause we're not a team. WOW that sucks, I thought we had the Nationals so everybody can enjoy watching and learning this stuff. Now I know it's only for teams cause they are the only ones that matter! Not that anybody travels and has to book planes/motels/lodging to this event just to watch and admire the sport. Wonder if all the Nascar fans left if they will still have races? Hmmm, maybe a boycot is needed, maybe sponsors would agree that it only matters to comp. and not to the rest of the jumpers/watchers and not have any worries about it. Who knows, what I do know is that some jumpers who don't get nuff attention just quit and there goes the future of it all. slippery slope your making with this. You also know how bad this situation is and still insist on having it your way?
Nice way of thinking. Yeah you might have help this sport for 20+ years but thats dosen't mean it's your time to take back cause thats never the case in skydiving. It's always a give sport.

Scoobie! Come watch, that would be great, but have you made reservations, asked for time of work, told your wife you'll be out of town? Do ya wanna do Pro-Am with me? I will if I can be there.

I'm trying to see who loses out financially if we move the dates. I'm asking bacause no one asked me in 1999, they just moved the dates because it was better for meet management. I care enough about the competitors to find out first.

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[topdocker 0]

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If it is important to have a CF presence in China during the air show, why does it have to be US teams. There are plenty of highly trained and capable CF teams in the wolrd to present to sport. I do not see why the invited teams can not politely refuse an invitation explaining the very patriotic reasons (who, if not China, can understand these reasons better) and suggesting an alternative to take their place. Having our presence felt on the world stage is good, but Nationals is about Us and has to take priority. This is IMHO of course.

Ah, a good question!

Being invited as a country to this air show is a HUGE honor, apparently. Last year, the French represented in CF, and the Chinese felt it should go another country this year. Airshows are a little odd, once you turn one down, no matter how pollitely, you will not get asked again. (We're talking US, not just CF teams).

I think people are missing the point here. My team (Redline, not speaking for Clean Air at all) wants to do both events, but cannot with the Nationals dates as they are. USPA wants us to be able to do both, show the national support, but show the world what we are capable of on an international forum.

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[ScoobieDoo 0]

I live by and JUMP at Skydive Chicago where the meet is. So to answer your question did I make reservations already, don't need to as I will drive there from home everyday I would go to them. For once an event is close to me. I would love to jump with you also if it works out. As for the last part you mention to see who loses out financially, If others can put a cost on it will it be covered(paid for) otherwise why bother asking what the cost are? Sorry they just uped and moved the dates on you in 99, but you know it feels so why do you want to do it to others? Yes, I understand you really want to go and not miss the China thing but again what is at steak here is the future and you know that too. I think the backlash is stronger on the idea of you(both teams)having a say of moving it for CHINA, now if it was for medical reasons for time to recover from something that I think people would understand more but CHINA! That's just hard to agree with for some.

[topdocker 0]

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As for the last part you mention to see who loses out financially, If others can put a cost on it will it be covered(paid for) otherwise why bother asking what the cost are?

I think the backlash is stronger on the idea of you(both teams)having a say of moving it for CHINA, now if it was for medical reasons for time to recover from something that I think people would understand more but CHINA! That's just hard to agree with for some.

First, I'm trying to see if people have bought plane tickets(not just reserved them), locked in time off from work, etc. No, I don't reimburse, no one reimburses me when a meet runs long or short and I need to get home. You might be surprised to find out that the cost of flying to the Nationals is a small fraction of the costs of competing.

The second point may be where we disagree more. I think moving dates for a team to recover before the meet from an injury would not happen (but giving a team a day when they have had an injury does happen). If we were going to VENEZUALA, would that be better?

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[edge01 1]

Can't we all just get along.Post less jump more.
Eric

[ScoobieDoo 0]

First and last post for me here, Others can take up the posting from than.
An injury was said cause that means giving time to help field the best at their best for the best comp. not moving for convenience of a team.
the reason reimburstment was said cause it sounded like you wanted a tally of what this move would incur to others, is there a limit before you say forget it. I said plane and lodging cause thats all that would be different, food and other things wouldn't change as the amount of days stay the same. Extra fees to make changes do add up. The other thing would be time off work which some people are locked in already.
As for China? Any other country should come after the one you live in, earn a living and play in most of the time. Remember, Nationals may drop it if WE can't keep enough people coming to this. Keep this in mind.