riggerrob 558 #1 January 3, 2003 Which container features do you consider mandatory for CReW? Straight harness? Hip rings? Hip and chest rings? Extra-wide leg pads? Extra-large riser covers? Style of pin cover? Reserve CReW flap or tuck in pin cover? Pull-out or throw-out? How many of you ignore side flaps? Let's limit this discussion to below-riser features. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
faulknerwn 36 #2 January 3, 2003 QuoteWhich container features do you consider mandatory for CReW? . I don't really have an opinion on rings or no rings. I jump Racers with no rings but I don't really care. CRW leg pads are important - they're generally better padded (not necessarily wider). Large riser covers are mandatory as well. It can be hard enough getting all of our riser stuff in larger covers much less regular ones! As for as pin covers, most of the modern rigs are safe. You want to not be able to snag the pin - but all of the rigs currently being built are being built with those. I'd seriously considering getting the reserve container slightly bigger than needed so everything seats well and stays in place. Overfull containers tend to be less comfortable and more prone to flaps coming undone. I actually order even my freefall rigs slightly larger than need be for comfort. Much better having a soft container than a brick on your back, and everything seats and squishes so much easier. I hate hard pack jobs. The reserve flaps are generally only on older rigs and Reflexes. I don't see any need for them on a modern Javelin assuming that the reserve can be packed so that the tuck tab stays put. I put my risers in my side flaps. I can't usually get all the muck tucked in very well over the shoulders, but my side flaps are fine. I personally prefer a pullout for CRW because you get an opening without pilot chute hesitations and stuff like you can with a throwout. But unless you're on a competition team or something, throwouts usually work fine for most CRW. It only becomes an issue when you're exiting extremely close together. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
relyon 0 #3 January 3, 2003 I agree with Wendy's comments, so I won't repeat those. Most of the features listed are comfort/fit related, but my biggest concern re: containers and CReW is snag resistance. No offense Wendy, but I'd never jump an exposed pop top style rig (Racer, Reflex, older Javelins, etc.) for CReW. A main snagged on the reserve pilot chute practically guarantees a main/reserve entaglement if it can't be cleared, and clearing it may be impossible. I personally prefer as clean and as closed a rig as possible, and get plenty of comments from other dogs because my stuff doesn't hang out. Infinities and Talons are excellent in this respect - the later Javelins are pretty good too. There are others as well. Bob Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
crwmike 0 #4 January 4, 2003 Ditto on the PopTops, Bob. I did CRW with a Racer Elite for many years. Always made sure the Hat was snugged down tightly. On one CRW weekend, my PopTop got snagged three times. That was enough for me. The Racer is a nice rig but I won't use one for CRW anymore. I now wear a far less comfortable rig (the price was right :) but it's a safer option. Michael QuoteI agree with Wendy's comments, so I won't repeat those. Most of the features listed are comfort/fit related, but my biggest concern re: containers and CReW is snag resistance. No offense Wendy, but I'd never jump an exposed pop top style rig (Racer, Reflex, older Javelins, etc.) for CReW. A main snagged on the reserve pilot chute practically guarantees a main/reserve entaglement if it can't be cleared, and clearing it may be impossible. I personally prefer as clean and as closed a rig as possible, and get plenty of comments from other dogs because my stuff doesn't hang out. Infinities and Talons are excellent in this respect - the later Javelins are pretty good too. There are others as well. Bob Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
faulknerwn 36 #5 January 4, 2003 Quote No offense Wendy, but I'd never jump an exposed pop top style rig (Racer, Reflex, older Javelins, etc.) for CReW. A main snagged on the reserve pilot chute practically guarantees a main/reserve entaglement if it can't be cleared, and clearing it may be impossible. Bob A lot of people think like that. I've about 1500 CRW jumps on my Racers though and have never had a problem. My reserve container is definitely larger than it needs to be so the poptop seats cleanly. I've seen problems with the Reflexes snagging and popping (and not just in CRW) but the 2nd pin on the Racer seems to hold it considerably snugger. If I ever was concerned I'd just get CRW flaps put on it - Racer's are one of the few rigs that are really comfortable for small people. CRW flaps wouldn't be a bad idea on my Racer to make it more snag proof. It depends on your rigger and your setup whether its a good idea. If you're in an area where no one has Racers and your rigger doesn't know them, you're probably better off with something else for CRW. But they can be perfectly safe as well. I'm just paranoid about jumping a rig where my reserve pin is on my bag and potentially snagged by a line (because I've seen the reserve tuck tabs come open on all sorts of rigs). That's a guaranteed main-reserve entanglement if it opens, and/or a bent reserve pin making for an impossible deployment. I've seen this happen on a ~1996 Javelin on a freefall jump. My pins are more secure. Just choose your paranoia. Mine is potentially-snaggable pins. Other people's biggest one is snag-resistance. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
crwmike 0 #6 January 4, 2003 Some good points, Wendy. I had years of problem free CRW with my Racer. (Perhaps I should place the blame on NippleBoy for hanging his nose on my poptop :) With a tightly seated poptop and CRW flaps, the Racer would be an acceptable choice (and a comfortable one). I do appreciate the pin protection a Racer offers. Without the flaps OR a less than PERFECT reserve pack job, there is a definite safety issue. I felt I was a crater waiting for a grid reference. YMMV Michael QuoteQuote A lot of people think like that. I've about 1500 CRW jumps on my Racers though and have never had a problem. My reserve container is definitely larger than it needs to be so the poptop seats cleanly. I've seen problems with the Reflexes snagging and popping (and not just in CRW) but the 2nd pin on the Racer seems to hold it considerably snugger. If I ever was concerned I'd just get CRW flaps put on it - Racer's are one of the few rigs that are really comfortable for small people. CRW flaps wouldn't be a bad idea on my Racer to make it more snag proof. It depends on your rigger and your setup whether its a good idea. If you're in an area where no one has Racers and your rigger doesn't know them, you're probably better off with something else for CRW. But they can be perfectly safe as well. I'm just paranoid about jumping a rig where my reserve pin is on my bag and potentially snagged by a line (because I've seen the reserve tuck tabs come open on all sorts of rigs). That's a guaranteed main-reserve entanglement if it opens, and/or a bent reserve pin making for an impossible deployment. I've seen this happen on a ~1996 Javelin on a freefall jump. My pins are more secure. Just choose your paranoia. Mine is potentially-snaggable pins. Other people's biggest one is snag-resistance. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites faulknerwn 36 #7 January 5, 2003 Quote Without the flaps OR a less than PERFECT reserve pack job, there is a definite safety issue. I felt I was a crater waiting for a grid reference. YMMV Michael Quote Yeah I always feel like a crater waiting for a grid reference every time I jump a rig for CRW with an exposed pin on my back. Every time I've borrowed a Javelin or something for CRW I think I check those pins 82 times during a trip up and down. I think I'm just ultra-paranoid about that because of all the premature reserve launches I've seen over the years with exposed-pin rigs (tho admittedly all during airplane rides, climbout, or freefall, not CRW). It was at Ballunarfest during the CRW event I last saw a Vector prematurely launch while sitting in the airplane. And after the time I watched a friend land with her Javelin reserve pin bent at a 90 degree angle from catching on the Cessna door during climbout, I'm just way too scared of pin snags to jump rigs with exposed pins more than occasionally. Tis funny eh? Some people are paranoid of snags on a poptop, other people are more paranoid about snags on pins? I'd like to see a rig where the pins were protected on your back and there was no pop-top snag points. That'd be nice. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites markbaur 0 #8 January 5, 2003 Quotea rig where the pins were protected on your back and there was no pop-top snag points Something like the original Mirage, plus CRW flaps perhaps? The pilot chute packed underneath the flaps (like current Mirage or Vector, but the pin was on the back (like Reflex). Mark Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites parachutist 1 #9 January 5, 2003 Quote It was at Ballunarfest during the CRW event I last saw a Vector prematurely launch while sitting in the airplane. To me, the scary part of that incident was that it seemed his pin did not actually catch on anything. He leaned back and it seemed that the pressure of his body on the rig caused the pin to release. *pop* The jumper was convinced that he needed a new rig after this incident. Chris Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites faulknerwn 36 #10 January 6, 2003 Quote Something like the original Mirage, plus CRW flaps perhaps? The pilot chute packed underneath the flaps (like current Mirage or Vector, but the pin was on the back (like Reflex). Mark Was the orignal Mirage like that? I can't remember. I just have been at a dropzone a bunch of the times over the years and have seen a reserve launch prematurely probably a dozen times (without a ripcord pull). Every single one was on a 1-pin system - none was on a Racer. That's why I'm scared to jump those rigs. I feel like I have a much more secure reserve system. Not everyone does tho. That's why skydiving is so great - everyone can have their own opinions, their own feelings, and there is gear out there for everyone. So if you're out there worried about a poptop, there is awesome gear available. If you're worried about pin protection, there's awesome gear out there. Pick your poison. Skydiving is an inherently dangerous sport unless you choose to save yourself. You can choose from any sort of helmet/rig/canopy/AAD/RSL and more according to your liking. That's a damn good thing. There is all sorts of great equipment out there nowadays. Educate yourself and pick what is best for you. What is bets for you is quite possibly not what is best for me. That is what so great about choices. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites relyon 0 #11 January 6, 2003 Quote Tis funny eh? Some people are paranoid of snags on a poptop, other people are more paranoid about snags on pins? I'd like to see a rig where the pins were protected on your back and there was no pop-top snag points. That'd be nice. I'm paranoid about snags anywhere. I don't understand the pin snag reference, though. Are we discussing climb out related mals or CRW wraps and entanglements? Your friends climbout could have just as easily snagged the pop top on a Racer - I know people who have done just that. And in-plane reserve deployments happen on all sorts of rigs for all kinds of reasons. The reserve closing (top) flap on my Infinity is closed with two side tabs and it tucks into the bottom flap as well. The reserve pin points down (IIRC, the newer Javelins are similar). How does a line get that far into my rig without ripping my head off too? What would happen to a pop top under the exact same circumstances? Bob Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites faulknerwn 36 #12 January 6, 2003 Quote I don't understand the pin snag reference, though. Are we discussing climb out related mals or CRW wraps and entanglements? Your friends climbout could have just as easily snagged the pop top on a Racer - I know people who have done just that. And in-plane reserve deployments happen on all sorts of rigs for all kinds of reasons. ---- True. Most of the ones have been on Javelins and Vectors and the sort (we don't have many Infinities over here, and especially Javelins they seem to be the most popular). Usually whether its in the plane, or gradually over time, or in the door, the pin has been pushed out so there is very little left, and a bump in the door or in freefall, or just flexing has caused them to pop. That is the biggest thing I like about 2 pin rigs - you have to try pretty hard to pop both pins out. I've heard of premature deployments on Reflexes, but I've never heard of one (at least in the past 10 years or so) on a Racer. I expect its probably but I've never heard or seen one. 2 pins seem to make it more secure. ---- The reserve closing (top) flap on my Infinity is closed with two side tabs and it tucks into the bottom flap as well. The reserve pin points down (IIRC, the newer Javelins are similar). How does a line get that far into my rig without ripping my head off too? What would happen to a pop top under the exact same circumstances? --- Generally - its possible the Infinities aren't as prone to this as the Vectors with which I'm more familiar, but I see where those tabs are tucked in at the bottom, always seem to be coming out. And a line sliding in under there could snag a pin - depending on how far the pin gets tucked in. That's how the Javelin pin get bent to a 90 degree angle. It was a Javelin without the place to tuck it into the bottom, and she was on a 182 step, and something on the door during exit snagged her pin and bent it to a 90 degree angle. Scary. The only Infinities I see on a regular basis are student rigs - probably ~5 years old or so. (They might have updated their design since then I'm not sure.) Anyway those bottom tuck tabs seem to never want to stay tucked in. A lot of how well those things stay in seem to be with the reserve size/tightness, how well the reserve is packed, how much abuse the rig sees and such. You're being up in Infinity country, I expect that the riggers up there know those rigs really well. The best reserve repack my Racer ever saw was at a CRW thing up in Michigan where I had a chop and the dz owned 30 student Racers. That rigger made my Racer the most beautiful looking reserve container I've ever seen it. I expect if you order a Javelin and Infinity and others like I order my Racer - with a bigger reserve container size than necessary, those flaps are a lot more likely to stay in place. How well do they hold up over time though? I normally check my reserve pins every single jump - do the flaps get bent out of shapes like a lot of main flaps and riser covers do on a lot (probably most) rigs? If I have to open and close that flap 5 times a day that is a lot of wear. Rigs are getting better every year so I'm sure I've never seen on a regular basis the latest Infinities.. They may have found ways around these issues. It just seems like most of the rigs out there work great brand new, and then after a year or two start having all of these issues. The other big question I'd wonder about is size. All of my rigs are pretty small - I wonder how that affects this kind of issue. The reserve flap would be shorter, so would that make it more or less likely to pop out? I bet it has some effect but I'm not sure which way. Another question would be where the pin goes on small versus larger rigs - I know that the pins on my littlest Power Racer lie very differently than my larger CRW Racer. How does the size of the rig affect pin placement on Infinities? I would think it would somewhat just because of the shorter height of the reserve container as a whole. I don't know enough about packing reserves to know the answer to that one. Lots of interesting questions. Things to think about at night :-) W Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites parachutist 1 #13 January 6, 2003 Quote I'm just paranoid about jumping a rig where my reserve pin is on my bag and potentially snagged by a line (because I've seen the reserve tuck tabs come open on all sorts of rigs). That's a guaranteed main-reserve entanglement if it opens, and/or a bent reserve pin making for an impossible deployment. I've seen this happen on a ~1996 Javelin on a freefall jump. My pins are more secure. I just noticed that on my 3-year old Dolphin container there is a little hood that the tip of the reserve pin slides under (Much like a hood used to keep the tip of a brake toggle in place). I think this must be a relatively recent refinement and it seems that this pretty much rules out the chances of a line getting caught under the pin, or chances of comething pushing on the tip of the pin to push it free from the closing loop. THere is still possibility with this design I think of the velcro cover being flipped back during climbout and heavy pressure against a door combined with movement to grab the cable itself and pull the pin that way... overall though it seems pretty secure to me. My Wings rig has a cover similar to the Infinity picture that Bob posted... where the bottom of the cover flap tucks in. But on this particular rig like you mentioned earlier, Wendy.... it's not a very secure tuck.. the flap just sits there loosely in this rig and it's easy to nudge it open. Chris Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites faulknerwn 36 #14 January 7, 2003 Quote I just noticed that on my 3-year old Dolphin container there is a little hood that the tip of the reserve pin slides under (Much like a hood used to keep the tip of a brake toggle in place). I think this must be a relatively recent refinement and it seems that this pretty much rules out the chances of a line getting caught under the pin, or chances of comething pushing on the tip of the pin to push it free from the closing loop. Just be sure to check it regularly. I've seen reserve pins on all types of rigs gradually work their way out. Right after a pack job your pin goes in that pouch, but after 120 days of flexing, moving, packing, pins and cable flex during that time and if you're not diligent with checking it, it can quite easily slide considerably closer to the loop than where it started. CRWdogs in general seem to be more careful with and knowledgable about their gear than many skydivers, but if you're not looking for that its easy to miss. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Casch 0 #15 January 7, 2003 QuoteJust be sure to check it regularly. I've seen reserve pins on all types of rigs gradually work their way out. Right after a pack job your pin goes in that pouch, but after 120 days of flexing, moving, packing, pins and cable flex during that time and if you're not diligent with checking it, it can quite easily slide considerably closer to the loop than where it started. Hmmm, I check my reserve pin before and after every jump...I urge everyone to do the same. 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faulknerwn 36 #7 January 5, 2003 Quote Without the flaps OR a less than PERFECT reserve pack job, there is a definite safety issue. I felt I was a crater waiting for a grid reference. YMMV Michael Quote Yeah I always feel like a crater waiting for a grid reference every time I jump a rig for CRW with an exposed pin on my back. Every time I've borrowed a Javelin or something for CRW I think I check those pins 82 times during a trip up and down. I think I'm just ultra-paranoid about that because of all the premature reserve launches I've seen over the years with exposed-pin rigs (tho admittedly all during airplane rides, climbout, or freefall, not CRW). It was at Ballunarfest during the CRW event I last saw a Vector prematurely launch while sitting in the airplane. And after the time I watched a friend land with her Javelin reserve pin bent at a 90 degree angle from catching on the Cessna door during climbout, I'm just way too scared of pin snags to jump rigs with exposed pins more than occasionally. Tis funny eh? Some people are paranoid of snags on a poptop, other people are more paranoid about snags on pins? I'd like to see a rig where the pins were protected on your back and there was no pop-top snag points. That'd be nice. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites markbaur 0 #8 January 5, 2003 Quotea rig where the pins were protected on your back and there was no pop-top snag points Something like the original Mirage, plus CRW flaps perhaps? The pilot chute packed underneath the flaps (like current Mirage or Vector, but the pin was on the back (like Reflex). Mark Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites parachutist 1 #9 January 5, 2003 Quote It was at Ballunarfest during the CRW event I last saw a Vector prematurely launch while sitting in the airplane. To me, the scary part of that incident was that it seemed his pin did not actually catch on anything. He leaned back and it seemed that the pressure of his body on the rig caused the pin to release. *pop* The jumper was convinced that he needed a new rig after this incident. Chris Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites faulknerwn 36 #10 January 6, 2003 Quote Something like the original Mirage, plus CRW flaps perhaps? The pilot chute packed underneath the flaps (like current Mirage or Vector, but the pin was on the back (like Reflex). Mark Was the orignal Mirage like that? I can't remember. I just have been at a dropzone a bunch of the times over the years and have seen a reserve launch prematurely probably a dozen times (without a ripcord pull). Every single one was on a 1-pin system - none was on a Racer. That's why I'm scared to jump those rigs. I feel like I have a much more secure reserve system. Not everyone does tho. That's why skydiving is so great - everyone can have their own opinions, their own feelings, and there is gear out there for everyone. So if you're out there worried about a poptop, there is awesome gear available. If you're worried about pin protection, there's awesome gear out there. Pick your poison. Skydiving is an inherently dangerous sport unless you choose to save yourself. You can choose from any sort of helmet/rig/canopy/AAD/RSL and more according to your liking. That's a damn good thing. There is all sorts of great equipment out there nowadays. Educate yourself and pick what is best for you. What is bets for you is quite possibly not what is best for me. That is what so great about choices. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites relyon 0 #11 January 6, 2003 Quote Tis funny eh? Some people are paranoid of snags on a poptop, other people are more paranoid about snags on pins? I'd like to see a rig where the pins were protected on your back and there was no pop-top snag points. That'd be nice. I'm paranoid about snags anywhere. I don't understand the pin snag reference, though. Are we discussing climb out related mals or CRW wraps and entanglements? Your friends climbout could have just as easily snagged the pop top on a Racer - I know people who have done just that. And in-plane reserve deployments happen on all sorts of rigs for all kinds of reasons. The reserve closing (top) flap on my Infinity is closed with two side tabs and it tucks into the bottom flap as well. The reserve pin points down (IIRC, the newer Javelins are similar). How does a line get that far into my rig without ripping my head off too? What would happen to a pop top under the exact same circumstances? Bob Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites faulknerwn 36 #12 January 6, 2003 Quote I don't understand the pin snag reference, though. Are we discussing climb out related mals or CRW wraps and entanglements? Your friends climbout could have just as easily snagged the pop top on a Racer - I know people who have done just that. And in-plane reserve deployments happen on all sorts of rigs for all kinds of reasons. ---- True. Most of the ones have been on Javelins and Vectors and the sort (we don't have many Infinities over here, and especially Javelins they seem to be the most popular). Usually whether its in the plane, or gradually over time, or in the door, the pin has been pushed out so there is very little left, and a bump in the door or in freefall, or just flexing has caused them to pop. That is the biggest thing I like about 2 pin rigs - you have to try pretty hard to pop both pins out. I've heard of premature deployments on Reflexes, but I've never heard of one (at least in the past 10 years or so) on a Racer. I expect its probably but I've never heard or seen one. 2 pins seem to make it more secure. ---- The reserve closing (top) flap on my Infinity is closed with two side tabs and it tucks into the bottom flap as well. The reserve pin points down (IIRC, the newer Javelins are similar). How does a line get that far into my rig without ripping my head off too? What would happen to a pop top under the exact same circumstances? --- Generally - its possible the Infinities aren't as prone to this as the Vectors with which I'm more familiar, but I see where those tabs are tucked in at the bottom, always seem to be coming out. And a line sliding in under there could snag a pin - depending on how far the pin gets tucked in. That's how the Javelin pin get bent to a 90 degree angle. It was a Javelin without the place to tuck it into the bottom, and she was on a 182 step, and something on the door during exit snagged her pin and bent it to a 90 degree angle. Scary. The only Infinities I see on a regular basis are student rigs - probably ~5 years old or so. (They might have updated their design since then I'm not sure.) Anyway those bottom tuck tabs seem to never want to stay tucked in. A lot of how well those things stay in seem to be with the reserve size/tightness, how well the reserve is packed, how much abuse the rig sees and such. You're being up in Infinity country, I expect that the riggers up there know those rigs really well. The best reserve repack my Racer ever saw was at a CRW thing up in Michigan where I had a chop and the dz owned 30 student Racers. That rigger made my Racer the most beautiful looking reserve container I've ever seen it. I expect if you order a Javelin and Infinity and others like I order my Racer - with a bigger reserve container size than necessary, those flaps are a lot more likely to stay in place. How well do they hold up over time though? I normally check my reserve pins every single jump - do the flaps get bent out of shapes like a lot of main flaps and riser covers do on a lot (probably most) rigs? If I have to open and close that flap 5 times a day that is a lot of wear. Rigs are getting better every year so I'm sure I've never seen on a regular basis the latest Infinities.. They may have found ways around these issues. It just seems like most of the rigs out there work great brand new, and then after a year or two start having all of these issues. The other big question I'd wonder about is size. All of my rigs are pretty small - I wonder how that affects this kind of issue. The reserve flap would be shorter, so would that make it more or less likely to pop out? I bet it has some effect but I'm not sure which way. Another question would be where the pin goes on small versus larger rigs - I know that the pins on my littlest Power Racer lie very differently than my larger CRW Racer. How does the size of the rig affect pin placement on Infinities? I would think it would somewhat just because of the shorter height of the reserve container as a whole. I don't know enough about packing reserves to know the answer to that one. Lots of interesting questions. Things to think about at night :-) W Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites parachutist 1 #13 January 6, 2003 Quote I'm just paranoid about jumping a rig where my reserve pin is on my bag and potentially snagged by a line (because I've seen the reserve tuck tabs come open on all sorts of rigs). That's a guaranteed main-reserve entanglement if it opens, and/or a bent reserve pin making for an impossible deployment. I've seen this happen on a ~1996 Javelin on a freefall jump. My pins are more secure. I just noticed that on my 3-year old Dolphin container there is a little hood that the tip of the reserve pin slides under (Much like a hood used to keep the tip of a brake toggle in place). I think this must be a relatively recent refinement and it seems that this pretty much rules out the chances of a line getting caught under the pin, or chances of comething pushing on the tip of the pin to push it free from the closing loop. THere is still possibility with this design I think of the velcro cover being flipped back during climbout and heavy pressure against a door combined with movement to grab the cable itself and pull the pin that way... overall though it seems pretty secure to me. My Wings rig has a cover similar to the Infinity picture that Bob posted... where the bottom of the cover flap tucks in. But on this particular rig like you mentioned earlier, Wendy.... it's not a very secure tuck.. the flap just sits there loosely in this rig and it's easy to nudge it open. Chris Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites faulknerwn 36 #14 January 7, 2003 Quote I just noticed that on my 3-year old Dolphin container there is a little hood that the tip of the reserve pin slides under (Much like a hood used to keep the tip of a brake toggle in place). I think this must be a relatively recent refinement and it seems that this pretty much rules out the chances of a line getting caught under the pin, or chances of comething pushing on the tip of the pin to push it free from the closing loop. Just be sure to check it regularly. I've seen reserve pins on all types of rigs gradually work their way out. Right after a pack job your pin goes in that pouch, but after 120 days of flexing, moving, packing, pins and cable flex during that time and if you're not diligent with checking it, it can quite easily slide considerably closer to the loop than where it started. CRWdogs in general seem to be more careful with and knowledgable about their gear than many skydivers, but if you're not looking for that its easy to miss. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Casch 0 #15 January 7, 2003 QuoteJust be sure to check it regularly. I've seen reserve pins on all types of rigs gradually work their way out. Right after a pack job your pin goes in that pouch, but after 120 days of flexing, moving, packing, pins and cable flex during that time and if you're not diligent with checking it, it can quite easily slide considerably closer to the loop than where it started. Hmmm, I check my reserve pin before and after every jump...I urge everyone to do the same. 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markbaur 0 #8 January 5, 2003 Quotea rig where the pins were protected on your back and there was no pop-top snag points Something like the original Mirage, plus CRW flaps perhaps? The pilot chute packed underneath the flaps (like current Mirage or Vector, but the pin was on the back (like Reflex). Mark Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
parachutist 1 #9 January 5, 2003 Quote It was at Ballunarfest during the CRW event I last saw a Vector prematurely launch while sitting in the airplane. To me, the scary part of that incident was that it seemed his pin did not actually catch on anything. He leaned back and it seemed that the pressure of his body on the rig caused the pin to release. *pop* The jumper was convinced that he needed a new rig after this incident. Chris Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
faulknerwn 36 #10 January 6, 2003 Quote Something like the original Mirage, plus CRW flaps perhaps? The pilot chute packed underneath the flaps (like current Mirage or Vector, but the pin was on the back (like Reflex). Mark Was the orignal Mirage like that? I can't remember. I just have been at a dropzone a bunch of the times over the years and have seen a reserve launch prematurely probably a dozen times (without a ripcord pull). Every single one was on a 1-pin system - none was on a Racer. That's why I'm scared to jump those rigs. I feel like I have a much more secure reserve system. Not everyone does tho. That's why skydiving is so great - everyone can have their own opinions, their own feelings, and there is gear out there for everyone. So if you're out there worried about a poptop, there is awesome gear available. If you're worried about pin protection, there's awesome gear out there. Pick your poison. Skydiving is an inherently dangerous sport unless you choose to save yourself. You can choose from any sort of helmet/rig/canopy/AAD/RSL and more according to your liking. That's a damn good thing. There is all sorts of great equipment out there nowadays. Educate yourself and pick what is best for you. What is bets for you is quite possibly not what is best for me. That is what so great about choices. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
relyon 0 #11 January 6, 2003 Quote Tis funny eh? Some people are paranoid of snags on a poptop, other people are more paranoid about snags on pins? I'd like to see a rig where the pins were protected on your back and there was no pop-top snag points. That'd be nice. I'm paranoid about snags anywhere. I don't understand the pin snag reference, though. Are we discussing climb out related mals or CRW wraps and entanglements? Your friends climbout could have just as easily snagged the pop top on a Racer - I know people who have done just that. And in-plane reserve deployments happen on all sorts of rigs for all kinds of reasons. The reserve closing (top) flap on my Infinity is closed with two side tabs and it tucks into the bottom flap as well. The reserve pin points down (IIRC, the newer Javelins are similar). How does a line get that far into my rig without ripping my head off too? What would happen to a pop top under the exact same circumstances? Bob Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
faulknerwn 36 #12 January 6, 2003 Quote I don't understand the pin snag reference, though. Are we discussing climb out related mals or CRW wraps and entanglements? Your friends climbout could have just as easily snagged the pop top on a Racer - I know people who have done just that. And in-plane reserve deployments happen on all sorts of rigs for all kinds of reasons. ---- True. Most of the ones have been on Javelins and Vectors and the sort (we don't have many Infinities over here, and especially Javelins they seem to be the most popular). Usually whether its in the plane, or gradually over time, or in the door, the pin has been pushed out so there is very little left, and a bump in the door or in freefall, or just flexing has caused them to pop. That is the biggest thing I like about 2 pin rigs - you have to try pretty hard to pop both pins out. I've heard of premature deployments on Reflexes, but I've never heard of one (at least in the past 10 years or so) on a Racer. I expect its probably but I've never heard or seen one. 2 pins seem to make it more secure. ---- The reserve closing (top) flap on my Infinity is closed with two side tabs and it tucks into the bottom flap as well. The reserve pin points down (IIRC, the newer Javelins are similar). How does a line get that far into my rig without ripping my head off too? What would happen to a pop top under the exact same circumstances? --- Generally - its possible the Infinities aren't as prone to this as the Vectors with which I'm more familiar, but I see where those tabs are tucked in at the bottom, always seem to be coming out. And a line sliding in under there could snag a pin - depending on how far the pin gets tucked in. That's how the Javelin pin get bent to a 90 degree angle. It was a Javelin without the place to tuck it into the bottom, and she was on a 182 step, and something on the door during exit snagged her pin and bent it to a 90 degree angle. Scary. The only Infinities I see on a regular basis are student rigs - probably ~5 years old or so. (They might have updated their design since then I'm not sure.) Anyway those bottom tuck tabs seem to never want to stay tucked in. A lot of how well those things stay in seem to be with the reserve size/tightness, how well the reserve is packed, how much abuse the rig sees and such. You're being up in Infinity country, I expect that the riggers up there know those rigs really well. The best reserve repack my Racer ever saw was at a CRW thing up in Michigan where I had a chop and the dz owned 30 student Racers. That rigger made my Racer the most beautiful looking reserve container I've ever seen it. I expect if you order a Javelin and Infinity and others like I order my Racer - with a bigger reserve container size than necessary, those flaps are a lot more likely to stay in place. How well do they hold up over time though? I normally check my reserve pins every single jump - do the flaps get bent out of shapes like a lot of main flaps and riser covers do on a lot (probably most) rigs? If I have to open and close that flap 5 times a day that is a lot of wear. Rigs are getting better every year so I'm sure I've never seen on a regular basis the latest Infinities.. They may have found ways around these issues. It just seems like most of the rigs out there work great brand new, and then after a year or two start having all of these issues. The other big question I'd wonder about is size. All of my rigs are pretty small - I wonder how that affects this kind of issue. The reserve flap would be shorter, so would that make it more or less likely to pop out? I bet it has some effect but I'm not sure which way. Another question would be where the pin goes on small versus larger rigs - I know that the pins on my littlest Power Racer lie very differently than my larger CRW Racer. How does the size of the rig affect pin placement on Infinities? I would think it would somewhat just because of the shorter height of the reserve container as a whole. I don't know enough about packing reserves to know the answer to that one. Lots of interesting questions. Things to think about at night :-) W Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites parachutist 1 #13 January 6, 2003 Quote I'm just paranoid about jumping a rig where my reserve pin is on my bag and potentially snagged by a line (because I've seen the reserve tuck tabs come open on all sorts of rigs). That's a guaranteed main-reserve entanglement if it opens, and/or a bent reserve pin making for an impossible deployment. I've seen this happen on a ~1996 Javelin on a freefall jump. My pins are more secure. I just noticed that on my 3-year old Dolphin container there is a little hood that the tip of the reserve pin slides under (Much like a hood used to keep the tip of a brake toggle in place). I think this must be a relatively recent refinement and it seems that this pretty much rules out the chances of a line getting caught under the pin, or chances of comething pushing on the tip of the pin to push it free from the closing loop. THere is still possibility with this design I think of the velcro cover being flipped back during climbout and heavy pressure against a door combined with movement to grab the cable itself and pull the pin that way... overall though it seems pretty secure to me. My Wings rig has a cover similar to the Infinity picture that Bob posted... where the bottom of the cover flap tucks in. But on this particular rig like you mentioned earlier, Wendy.... it's not a very secure tuck.. the flap just sits there loosely in this rig and it's easy to nudge it open. Chris Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites faulknerwn 36 #14 January 7, 2003 Quote I just noticed that on my 3-year old Dolphin container there is a little hood that the tip of the reserve pin slides under (Much like a hood used to keep the tip of a brake toggle in place). I think this must be a relatively recent refinement and it seems that this pretty much rules out the chances of a line getting caught under the pin, or chances of comething pushing on the tip of the pin to push it free from the closing loop. Just be sure to check it regularly. I've seen reserve pins on all types of rigs gradually work their way out. Right after a pack job your pin goes in that pouch, but after 120 days of flexing, moving, packing, pins and cable flex during that time and if you're not diligent with checking it, it can quite easily slide considerably closer to the loop than where it started. CRWdogs in general seem to be more careful with and knowledgable about their gear than many skydivers, but if you're not looking for that its easy to miss. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Casch 0 #15 January 7, 2003 QuoteJust be sure to check it regularly. I've seen reserve pins on all types of rigs gradually work their way out. Right after a pack job your pin goes in that pouch, but after 120 days of flexing, moving, packing, pins and cable flex during that time and if you're not diligent with checking it, it can quite easily slide considerably closer to the loop than where it started. Hmmm, I check my reserve pin before and after every jump...I urge everyone to do the same. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. 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parachutist 1 #13 January 6, 2003 Quote I'm just paranoid about jumping a rig where my reserve pin is on my bag and potentially snagged by a line (because I've seen the reserve tuck tabs come open on all sorts of rigs). That's a guaranteed main-reserve entanglement if it opens, and/or a bent reserve pin making for an impossible deployment. I've seen this happen on a ~1996 Javelin on a freefall jump. My pins are more secure. I just noticed that on my 3-year old Dolphin container there is a little hood that the tip of the reserve pin slides under (Much like a hood used to keep the tip of a brake toggle in place). I think this must be a relatively recent refinement and it seems that this pretty much rules out the chances of a line getting caught under the pin, or chances of comething pushing on the tip of the pin to push it free from the closing loop. THere is still possibility with this design I think of the velcro cover being flipped back during climbout and heavy pressure against a door combined with movement to grab the cable itself and pull the pin that way... overall though it seems pretty secure to me. My Wings rig has a cover similar to the Infinity picture that Bob posted... where the bottom of the cover flap tucks in. But on this particular rig like you mentioned earlier, Wendy.... it's not a very secure tuck.. the flap just sits there loosely in this rig and it's easy to nudge it open. Chris Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
faulknerwn 36 #14 January 7, 2003 Quote I just noticed that on my 3-year old Dolphin container there is a little hood that the tip of the reserve pin slides under (Much like a hood used to keep the tip of a brake toggle in place). I think this must be a relatively recent refinement and it seems that this pretty much rules out the chances of a line getting caught under the pin, or chances of comething pushing on the tip of the pin to push it free from the closing loop. Just be sure to check it regularly. I've seen reserve pins on all types of rigs gradually work their way out. Right after a pack job your pin goes in that pouch, but after 120 days of flexing, moving, packing, pins and cable flex during that time and if you're not diligent with checking it, it can quite easily slide considerably closer to the loop than where it started. CRWdogs in general seem to be more careful with and knowledgable about their gear than many skydivers, but if you're not looking for that its easy to miss. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Casch 0 #15 January 7, 2003 QuoteJust be sure to check it regularly. I've seen reserve pins on all types of rigs gradually work their way out. Right after a pack job your pin goes in that pouch, but after 120 days of flexing, moving, packing, pins and cable flex during that time and if you're not diligent with checking it, it can quite easily slide considerably closer to the loop than where it started. Hmmm, I check my reserve pin before and after every jump...I urge everyone to do the same. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
