4-way VRW at US Nationals

[HydroGuy 0]

I was being a smart ass.

All the good freeflyers I know are fired up on the VRW scene. And I know Eloy and Betsie are doing their best to push this scene...especially since their tunnel can do 4way VRW work no sweat.

I just don't want Betsie to lure Chisholm to AZ...he's the closest thing I have to a mentor in this sport.

Get in - Get off - Get away....repeat as neccessary

[rehmwa 2]

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I was being a smart ass.

All the good freeflyers I know are fired up on the VRW scene.

Thanks, in retrospect, I actually was being an ass to you - sorry. It's amazing how many FFers I've met that hate the idea of competition in FF just because they have this narrow vision of what freeflying means to them - and if it's not their way, then it MUST be wrong. I think there's room for a lot of different visions - competitive types like me would wither and die if skydiving was just all geeking the camera and "relax, dude, it's just skydiving".

I think it's less about which discipline you like, or whether you like your recreation to be competitive or not - so much as which type of person are you and the does sport provide that to different personality types (ie, if you love RW competition instead of RW 'fun jumps', you'll like really enjoy the same in FF or swooping or any other aspect). I think the all around skydiver will be proficient in all attitudes - and it will take a LOT or training to get there.

Sounds like fun.

blues

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[skyjuggler 0]

You make some good points, but remember, some aspects of freeflying are subjective, as with any artistic discipline.
It's quite hard to quantify who is better at making music, Mozart or Beethoven.....

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It's amazing how many FFers I've met that hate the idea of competition in FF just because they have this narrow vision of what freeflying means to them - and if it's not their way, then it MUST be wrong.

And 4 way is just another version to add to the list that one person may like it and another may not. Which you kind of say with your next comment

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I think there's room for a lot of different visions

I think you'll agree that competitive types come in all forms. Turning points on you head is just one form of being competitive against the clock.

The good thing about freefly is that there is so much scope in the discipline.
Some of the best freeflyers aren't competing or having someone saying they are the best, that's kind of up to each person.

Progression doesn't have to be via competing. I don't think anyone would say Phillippe Vallaud is a bad freeflyer just because he likes to tear up the sky flying around, or that Omar is not one of the best freeflyers out there just because he doesn't compete at present.

Not being able to be where you want to be is one issue, needing some rules and guidelines to govern you is another.

Not having a dig, just think there are shades of grey and it is not just black and white.
At least formations against the clock are easier to judge, but artistic events despite the difficulty of judging is where you will see different styles, techniques and ideas, and is the fluid freeflying I like.

Giving structure to your jumps challenges you to see if you can adhere to those limits imposed. However you can give those to yourself doing freeflying without the need for a point structure or judging rules.
Tracing in a tight group, moving together all on level, respecting each others air space requires a good amount of skill, its just difference.

On a personal note I will agree I'm not into the just fall out the plane and geek the camera thinking I'm the daddy flyer.
But then its horses for courses, each has there own agenda and aim for the sport and that suits some.

I digress...... the 4-way stuff is pretty cool, it will help vertical skills and make people more accurate and quicker.
But it is still just one area of freefly, and of course the hardest thing about freeflying is understanding that you need to train at all the different elements to gain any skill in it.

[rehmwa 2]

Totally agree - this is what I've been saying. And I don't think I've been "kinda" saying it. I've been pretty obtuse about it - it's the whole point. In that, here on this board, I've heard no one bad mouth competition in FF (except in jest).

But I have heard cries elsewhere of 'purity' of the 'art' and comp will 'ruin' it - I think that's nonsense in the same vein that a serious competitor will look down on the more artistic (or even goofing around) side of the disciplines.

I'm always happy to hear from (especially someone new in the sport) - "that's pretty cool, but not for me. But if you have fun with it, great" It's much better than "cripes, why the hell would you do that? My thing is what skydiving is meant to be, stop ruining my sport".

It's funny that I'm very excited about the concept of VRW, for FFing, I'm only able to get a few relative moves (mixes of docks and orientations in only 2 and 3 ways) in when I'm feeling it well. Let alone tie in anything advanced yet. But I can't wait to see more as this is how I learn.

Maybe I'm imagining a minor dissent to VRW just because of the comments of a few arrogant wierdos. Yup, that's likely it.

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[skyjuggler 0]

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just because of the comments of a few arrogant wierdos. Yup, that's likely it.

Ha ha that's funny

There will be some, but to be fair, VRW is cool, but its not everything.

Freeflying has loads to it, but the thing with formations and structure is that it is tangible and easy to see / recognise.

You may have had discussions with people who were talking cross purpose.

I have to say, I don't like the formation thing or racing the clock so much.
But let's not confuse preference to being able to do something.
Let it be on the belly, back, feet, head, in the vertical in an angle, I want to be able to do it all. Then I think you can really make an informed opinion of what you prefer!

Freeflying should be free, I love the feeling of the space in the sky and trying to progress towards my goal of being where I want to be as fast and smooth as possible.
That can be making a point or going full gas with someone across the sky. Skill and control is one thing, flailing around is another!!!

Reckon you should hear some people out. I personally think that freefly means so many different things to different people, and I prefer not having it in a box.

But to stay to the point, 4-way will be cool, but at the end of the day it is 4 way just in different positions!!!
There is a whole load of other very good stuff to explore and get better at, just depends on imagination, experiences and influences from the people you meet.

Personally I think tangible goals make everything easier for the masses to understand but it is not always the right thing.
How many different ways to paint a picture? There are alot of different freeflyers doing different things and thats what I think is great.
The more you travel, the more of the freefly scene you see.
Sometimes you even catch freeflyers learning point turns in the tunnel.............hate to admit it!!!

[rehmwa 2]

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Reckon you should hear some people out. I personally think that freefly means so many different things to different people, and I prefer not having it in a box.

1 - "that's pretty cool, but not for me. But if you have fun with it, great" and I'd love to learn a thing or 7 from you someday.

2 - It is only in a box if you visualize it that way. it's so much more when you treat it as learning - precision, speed, and power, feeling the air and making it do what you want it to do.

The RW transition was the same way. Strangely enough, once people reach a certain skill level, then the 4way becomes very attractive (a few skilled hold outs didn't like it, but mostly for tradition reasons, the bulk of the dissentors were rather unskilled and resented the obvious gap those 'hotshots' demonstrated, until they got better at flying their bodies - then they miraculously converted.)

I think one way this can go: 1) the beginners don't like it because they feel left out. Except for the fact that their mentors get even better and suddenly we see the 'beginners' learning faster and better - an explosion of talent. 2) competition ranks increase as people learn more about precision and speed and power and how to harness it, another/greater explosion of talent. 3) The very best of the competitors revert to more artistic type stuff - trying even newer and more complex moves. More "free" if you will, but with a newer, more sophisticated set of flying skills and they start showing us even better things which propigate again into the entire group of skydivers.

Amazing isn't it?

Edit: I guess my point is that people who are just babies like to think of their work as their art (if they bother taking themselves that seriously). Learning control first (via comps, etc) is a great way to build an advanced skill set. After that point, they finally have the tools to really be artist at the discipline, instead of self-delusional hacks. It's like someone just learning to walk thinking that they should be jumping into professional ballet. Shouldn't they learn to turn, stop, run, skip, etc first so it's not a complete farce?

But then again, if it's fun for them ""that's pretty cool, but not for me. But if you have fun with it, great"

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[skyjuggler 0]

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1 - "that's pretty cool, but not for me. But if you have fun with it, great" and I'd love to learn a thing or 7 from you someday.

Not sure what that means,? Is it a positive comment or a dig, not sure. But...

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2 - It is only in a box if you visualize it that way. it's so much more when you treat it as learning - precision, speed, and power, feeling the air and making it do what you want it to do.

Freefly has different elements. Fact. Some people just want to do the headdown stuff, some want to do big ways, some want to do tracking and tracing around the sky and some train for competitions in freestyle and freefly.

The original point is that there are many different components to freefly. VRW will be one of them.

When we come to discuss how to progress etc... that is another can of worms.


I think you have to agree that some people will be different to you and have different opinions on different topics.
VRW is cool, but there are other things to freefly too.
I think good belly 4-way is great. The speed the top teams move at is great, and I would love to be that fast. But I want to move on belly, back, feet, head, whatever...that is what interests me and why I love freefly.
Different people will have different opinions on it.

May we are talking about different things here. Your points on how the sport has progressed and how progression can occur are good IMHO. The point I am trying to make is it is one area of the sport. If you want to get good at something you have to train hard to improve. That is why VRW 4way is possible now. It is difficult to do and requires a specific level. However this is in one area though. It doesn't automatically mean you can do something else in freefly, although I sure some one will point out that some skills are transferable.

If you jump with some of the top freeflyers, you can see the difference in speed of ability and thought. When I last visited Perris I jumped with Mike Swanson, he was so much faster than me, and he reminded me of a top 4 way flyer. That was good motivation to get faster as you see the current bench mark in a particular respect.
So in that respect this 4 way VRW will help skills no doubt. But it still what it is: 4-way VRW.

Anyways, I'm sure the post will get picked apart, but thats my view.
The funny thing is I want to do this and am interested in the VRW, just think maybe it ain't going to be the only thing that Freefly becomes. Playing a bit of devil's advocate here.

And as I say, perhaps hearing people out might be a good thing, because I have met some people who will never do this, purely because they are interested in other things.

[rehmwa 2]

I'm not quite sure why you keep taking the position that I disagree with you in any way - I surely don't and we've agreed on just about every single point in this thread almost right down to the nearly impossible subtle stuff. Fact - You must be assuming that I have a position that I don't.

So, I'll just stop here.

(and I would like to learn a thing or 7 from experienced FFers - always a positive comment).

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[skyjuggler 0]

Sorry, long days working the head is often fried!!!

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