Dont freefly with old racers

[Levin 0]

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How many malfunctions have you seen from toggles out, or risers all the way out? I've seen some mals from toggles out on a few rigs.

hmm. I'm not sure I would call that a malfunction. Back in '98 and '99 before "freefly friendly" became the industry standard we had to make do with what we had. I started jumping at a Cessna DZ and one of the guys I first started freeflying with had a slim line Vector II. He put about 300 HD jumps on that rig with both risers all the way out around his arms. Again that's 300 jumps with both risers out and David Armstrong has video of almost every one of those jumps. He never had a major issue or malfuction. I have had a riser around my arm on my Racer 2000 several times. I've had a brake line come undone twice on my Spectre 120 loaded at 1.2. I wouldn't call that a malfunction. More like a 720 degree off heading opening.

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When the riser comes all the way out and pulls the lines out of the pack tray, it malfunctions big.

I saw this once. My friend Kyle, also someone I first started freeflying with, never replaced the velcro on his rig. David Armstrong has a video of him HD just learning to fly the body position. He's 6'+ and in that video his body poistion was split legs with knees out and his arms were holding pizzas. But on this jump in between his legs even with his knees were both his toggles and and unstowed brake lines. David pointed at the steering lines and Kyle went on his belly and pulled. One of the steering lines snagged on the back of his rig. With a steering line snagged on his rig he decided not to cut-away. Instead he flew the Stiletto 135 in with one hand on a rear riser and the other hand up in the line set above the link. He crashed the canopy right next to me and got up without a scratch. Very interesting malfunction and handled ver well. But the situation could have been avoided had he replaced his velcro.

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After seeing 2 identical baglocks from 2 different rigs caused from the exact same thing, in two days,

I've seen 2 baglocks on 2 tandems in 2 weeks, but that has nothing to do with what we're talking about.

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Don't freefly in old racers. What part of don't freefly in old racers is creating such a stir

I guess the "don't" part.

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If a Riser comes out on a Javelin, the riser cover will contain most of the riser. Not good, but lesser of 2 evils. The toggle needs to be blown off, to cause trouble, but the lines will not get pulled out of the main pack tray.

And the new Racer 2k3 also falls into the category off the lesser of 2 evils.

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BASE jump.. wow, that has nothing to do it ... at all. Grasp at straws mate.

No straws to grasp. The BASE jump has everything to do with a point that I made. Use the rig for what it is intended and it works great. Use it for something it wasn't intended and when it doesn't work people blame the manufacturer instead of themselves.

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That reads... Don't freefly in Old racers. THANK you... FINALLY!!!!

Only if you are reading it with foggy glasses. The Racer 2000 that I speak of is not an old Racer. In fact they still make them. What it reads is don't use a rig for something that it was not designed for. And if you do and something bad happens don't blame the manufacturer. Blame yourself.

This whole debate basically boils down to one thing. If you are going to use a rig with velcro; keep the velcro in good shape. Replace it as needed. Don't neglect maintanence on your rig. And if you do and something bad happens that your fault not the manufacturers.

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ok you win. I'm off to work now.

After the time I have invested in this discussion I would hardly say I win. The winners are the readers who can now make a better informed decision on the gear they purchase and jump after reading this thread.

[LouDiamond 1]

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If a Riser comes out on a Javelin, the riser cover will contain most of the riser. Not good, but lesser of 2 evils. The toggle needs to be blown off, to cause trouble, but the lines will not get pulled out of the main pack tray.

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And the new Racer 2k3 also falls into the category off the lesser of 2 evils.

Even one step better. The new risers come with snap toggles so it's not coming undone until you want it undone.

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This whole debate basically boils down to one thing. If you are going to use a rig with velcro; keep the velcro in good shape. Replace it as needed. Don't neglect maintanence on your rig. And if you do and something bad happens that your fault not the manufacturers.

AMEN! to that.



OH, BTW check out this thread since were on the subject of OLD and FFing.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[hookitt 0]

Levin, bring your old rig with you to AOT. I will show you the reason why the riser covers will blow open on it where they'll probably stay shut on the smaller rig you have.

[hookitt 0]

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This whole debate basically boils down to one thing.

... the fact you like to debate

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If you are going to use a rig with velcro; keep the velcro in good shape.

It's not that simple. Again, bring the rig with you.

[78RATS 0]

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I have had a riser around my arm on my Racer 2000 several times. I've had a brake line come undone twice on my Spectre 120 loaded at 1.2

haha - maybe that's what people are talking about. Fuck a bunch o that.

Rat for Life - Fly till I die
When them stupid ass bitches ask why

[321seeya 0]

Are all racers sst's? if they aren't the same rig as yours but have the same name does that still mean they all suck?? just trying to understand your logic.

[RMURRAY 1]

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there are 3 types of racers and as far as I know you can buy each one of them today.

1. elite (velcro sealed risers)
2. 2000 (trough style riser covers)
3. 2K3 (no velcro)

By "old" I think everyone is referring to everything but the 2K3. An old 2k3 would be fine for FFing. Just wanted to clarify a bit...

Jumpshack recommends that the "2000" is for RW only - so if you are using one for freeflying you are going against their recommendation. Looked but could not find this on their website but I have seen it.

My next rig will be a 2K3 power racer - less maintainence (I change the velcro every 200 jumps), less whining from packers, more secure risers/bridle, lightweight/strong, good service.

[78RATS 0]

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(I change the velcro every 200 jumps)

haha - fuck dat too.

Rat for Life - Fly till I die
When them stupid ass bitches ask why

[ChasingBlueSky 0]

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(I change the velcro every 200 jumps)

haha - fuck dat too.

Just to toss in a bit on velcro - I have a friend that jumped an old Mirage with Velcro riser covers for years. He is a rigger and changes out the velcro almost every month and he has yet to have a riser come undone.

Bill Booth has stated many times that the velcro risers are the most secure form of all the risers if the velcro is replaced when it is supposed to be. However, we all know that jumpers do not follow out all the maintenance schedules.

Personally, with the speeds I go, I would never chance jumping anything that used Velcro as a closing method for RW or FF...I don't care what rig it is or if I change the velcro every weekend.

_________________________________________
you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me....
I WILL fly again.....

[hookitt 0]

Riser covers would stay shut if sheer force was the only force you deal with.

Take a brand new Vector 2 for instance. The riser cover is not "taught" when it's closed. A flier on his back will push the middle of the riser cover outward and peel the riser cover right open.

There tends to be a gap on the top of the riser on many many racers of old, so a bit of air getting in will peel it right open.

Mirage riser covers were designed with a tighter profile. However, I don't know anyone that will replace velcro every month.

[askir 0]

this is probably very old but hey I thought afetr I showed meg why this happenned no one bothered to mention it:
The new tuck flaps take some breaking in (20 jumps or so to mold to your shoulder, during that period folks place the riser over one of the two covers (as the tuck pocket is a double tab to prevent opening) after this period one should place the risers under both flaps..but hey I walk by rigs that have 100 jumps and there they are still over the one flap.....
perhaps we should put this on video too

LIFE IS LIKE A CIGARETTE, YOU CAN SIT THERE AND WATCH IT BURN AWAY OR YOU CAN SMOKE THAT BITCH TO THE FILTER

[LouDiamond 1]

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during that period folks place the riser over one of the two covers (as the tuck pocket is a double tab to prevent opening) after this period one should place the risers under both flaps..

Let me caveat that by saying that even though this technique may help during the break in period, Jump Shack does not advocate it as an approved method nor is it in the owners manual.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[askir 0]

You are correct, Nancy. John , Mike Forsythe and I have had long conversations regarding this thing, but it beats the heck out of sending the rig back to them for trimming 1/8th of an inch, massaging sometimes helps, waiting for a mal while the tuck pocket is stuck is no fun (seen it) very interesting hand assisted cut-away.
After break in or trimming or chancing they work great, I have sent a couple to them for trimming and have had it returned overnight at no charge to me or my customer.
Jump Shack's service is excellent and they are very nice people.

LIFE IS LIKE A CIGARETTE, YOU CAN SIT THERE AND WATCH IT BURN AWAY OR YOU CAN SMOKE THAT BITCH TO THE FILTER

[Mindcake 0]

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Yesterday I was doing some freefly with a friend , and while I was head down , one of the velcro riser covers catched air and opened , making it short , when I looked at my altimeter to open I saw one toogle wraped around my arm , I managed to clear it and opened my main , the opening wasn`t really good , but i managed it .
for freefly ,old racers are not good , the speed that you reach , is not for old racers.

I can name at least 4 occasions where this has happened, two ended in a cutaway and one almost tore a guys ear off on opening.

Don´t belive the hype

[Mindcake 0]

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He is right, The Racer doesnt just suck for freeflying...It Just Sucks...

As the packer at a DZ with 60 student-rental Racers, and the former home DZ for the corp (so there are a bunch of Racers around here) I would have to say that this statement sums up my feelings.

Don´t belive the hype

[crazydiver 0]

Just to interject all of the arguing...folks...racers do fine for RW and if well maintained will do fine with freeflying...HOWEVER...there are better built rigs out there that are more versatile, more secure, and in the same price range. I would freefly with one, but there is a long list of other rigs that I would RATHER freefly with. My main rig is a Javelin and I use a Dolphin as a second rig. I have freeflown with the dolphin...but I prefer my javelin. I really dont think there is a lot of room to argue in this forum. Simple engineering flaws and weaknesses...as well as stregnths...can be easily pointed out on every rig out there. These are documented through previous malfunctions, service bullitens, and incident reports. It seems that some containers...and a certain one that is in discussion here on this forum...have weaknesses that have been well documented and accepted in the skydiving community. For example...a 1970 buick could be argued by someone that it is the best built and most attractive car out there and great to use for nascar racing...and could truly believe that...but others in the driving community would probably disagree. Sure, they still make brand new redesigned buicks, but they obviously aren't good for nascar racing and some people would just not like them because they are a GM vehicle. But the fact of the matter is...in this case..and the case of the racer...its documented and accepted that there are things that each shouldnt be used for.

Cheers,
Travis

[LouDiamond 1]

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its documented and accepted that there are things that each shouldnt be used for

The key word in all of this is OLD. The new racer 2k3 no longer has any of the previously mentioned shortcomings. I challenge anyone to show me any manufacturers rig that hasn't had a riser cover come open in the field. Bottom line is no one can because it happens all the time. If you haven't actualy flown a 2k3 you have absolutely no baisis to make a decission or comment on how suitable it is for any type of skydiving. But don't take my word for it, go out and demo one for yourself, you won't be disappointed.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[diablopilot 2]

I've owned 3 Infinities and never had a flap come open on one....

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[cbain 0]

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its documented and accepted that there are things that each shouldnt be used for

The key word in all of this is OLD. The new racer 2k3 no longer has any of the previously mentioned shortcomings. I challenge anyone to show me any manufacturers rig that hasn't had a riser cover come open in the field. Bottom line is no one can because it happens all the time. If you haven't actualy flown a 2k3 you have absolutely no baisis to make a decission or comment on how suitable it is for any type of skydiving. But don't take my word for it, go out and demo one for yourself, you won't be disappointed.

I've never had a flap (any) come open on my 2K3.

Can't say that for my Javelin Odessey I used to have though. The risers and the main flap both would routinely open on my Javelin when freeflying starting when there was only 100-200 jumps on the rig.

Christina

[Mindcake 0]

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[replyCan't say that for my Javelin Odessey I used to have though. The risers and the main flap both would routinely open on my Javelin when freeflying starting when there was only 100-200 jumps on the rig.

Christina

I think that the Javelin main pin protection borders on the worst in the industry...I could put together a lot of footage of those things flapping in the breeze

Don´t belive the hype