so i was in a collision this weekend....

[Newbie 0]

not very fun, and thankfully not a serious one - although it was a definite slammer.

Looking back it was a stupid plan from the outset - my friend and i doing a 2 way sit (which we had done before and were good with) and a friend with 300 jumps or so working on his HD. Anyway the 2 way was more or less solid, a little vertical separation, and i was also trying to watch out for my HD friend, who can't hold a good position for more than a few secs.

He was below me, on his head, but was leaning back, actually in more of a back track position, suddenly coming at me from about 20ft below and closing fast. Im in a sit, looking at his face thinking "ok go into your sit whenever you are ready" (this is what we had arranged - he would use us as reference points, but stay away and not hit us - apparently). So he is closing fast looking at me with a sort of blank expression and both of us know whats coming (all he remembers while rising toward me was "i think this might hurt") - anyway we are both lucky as we hit my foot sole to his arm, on the bicep i think. It was pretty scary nonetheless. My question - what would have been the best thing for me to do? My thoughts after were maybe ball up and sink, which is pretty much what i was doing when he hit i think (probably more to protect myself as he was coming my way). It just came out of nowhere. We decided we were trying to do too much on that jump and the next one was scheduled to be a 3 way sit, to keep it nice and straightforward, but we got weathered out. So i will be wary of putting myself in a position like that again. My question is whats the best action to take if you have a collision coming your way? Any help appreciated

"Skydiving is a door"
Happythoughts

[FreeflyGoat 0]

I've side slid several students who were on a collision course with me.

This brings the point of dont invite people who cant hold a solid position and manuever on a 3 way. It makes me sad because this happen every weekend and nearly every drop zone. People say "oh, it's just a 3way and we'll watch out for each other."..It just doesnt work like that...

_________________________
goat
derka jerka bukkake jihad

[freeflydrew 0]

so if you're a low timer (relatively), and he's a low timer, and he's going straight at you really quickly, why not just go to your belly to avoid the collision? when there's more than 2 people in the jump it's not the best alternative, but if it's only a 2 way, that's the safest thing you can do at that moment... You're going to slow down to avoid the collision much quicker than if you try to side slide, ball up or speed up.

[Newbie 0]

thanks drew, i thought about this, but i guess it's been drilled into me so much not to go flat while ff'ing, or to avoid going flat, that it didn't occur to me until i got down.
Will bear it in mind though (on these smaller ways anyway)

"Skydiving is a door"
Happythoughts

[freeflydrew 0]

to add: I know it sounds corny, but you can also start waving your hands at them to try to alert them to how fast they're coming at you. They may be concentrating so much on their position that they don't even realize how fast they're moving. Flail your arms or start kicking your legs and it may snap them out of their trance in time.

Have fun!

[kaerock 1]

After being in that exact same situation and not being able to walk for several days I came to a conclusion:
Two low-time jumpers shouldn't be experimenting together. I highly discourage jumpers with 100-200 jumps from jumping with each other while freeflying...head down is usually out of the question. When my girlfriend started jumping I usually wouldn't allow another low-time jumper to jump with us as I was sure *I* could avoid a mess, but not my girlfriend.

Whenever I jump with someone new, I ask how many jumps they have, if it's just a few hundred, I ask them a few more questions.
Do you cork occasionally? - (beware)
Can you fly to someone and dock on them? (i.e. can they fly well enough to know how to stop and turn)
Do you feel confident that if I came flying at you that you'd be able to move? (same reason as above)

If they state that they are working on flying on their head, or that they're even good at it, I make it a sitfly. If they sitfly well-enough, the next time I have no problem flying head down with them.

These are things to think about when you're jumping with your low-jump-number friends. Keep dives small and simple. Work on the basics, facing off, staying close, going for toe-docks. Don't do anything too experimental without the guidence of a much more experienced diver. You need to realistically evaluate your skill as well as your jump-partner's, it's okay to question your and their abilities and to bow-out.

Ok at sitfly + ok at sitfly = ok
Ok at sitfly + iffy at sitfly = iffy
Iffy at stifly + iffy at sitfly = Bad Idea.
Ok at sitfly + ok at head down = iffy
Ok at sitfly + iffy at head down = Bad Idea.
Iffy at sitfly + iffy at head down = Very Bad Idea.

-R

Quote

not very fun, and thankfully not a serious one - although it was a definite slammer.

Looking back it was a stupid plan from the outset - my friend and i doing a 2 way sit (which we had done before and were good with) and a friend with 300 jumps or so working on his HD. Anyway the 2 way was more or less solid, a little vertical separation, and i was also trying to watch out for my HD friend, who can't hold a good position for more than a few secs.

He was below me, on his head, but was leaning back, actually in more of a back track position, suddenly coming at me from about 20ft below and closing fast. Im in a sit, looking at his face thinking "ok go into your sit whenever you are ready" (this is what we had arranged - he would use us as reference points, but stay away and not hit us - apparently). So he is closing fast looking at me with a sort of blank expression and both of us know whats coming (all he remembers while rising toward me was "i think this might hurt") - anyway we are both lucky as we hit my foot sole to his arm, on the bicep i think. It was pretty scary nonetheless. My question - what would have been the best thing for me to do? My thoughts after were maybe ball up and sink, which is pretty much what i was doing when he hit i think (probably more to protect myself as he was coming my way). It just came out of nowhere. We decided we were trying to do too much on that jump and the next one was scheduled to be a 3 way sit, to keep it nice and straightforward, but we got weathered out. So i will be wary of putting myself in a position like that again. My question is whats the best action to take if you have a collision coming your way? Any help appreciated

You be the king and I'll overthrow your government. --KRS-ONE

[Newbie 0]

Quote

to add: I know it sounds corny, but you can also start waving your hands at them to try to alert them to how fast they're coming at you. They may be concentrating so much on their position that they don't even realize how fast they're moving. Flail your arms or start kicking your legs and it may snap them out of their trance in time.

Have fun!

another good point. He was definitely brain locked (as i mentioned, he was supposed to pop straight back to head up if it wasn't going well).
Thanks!

"Skydiving is a door"
Happythoughts

[Newbie 0]

Quote

After being in that exact same situation and not being able to walk for several days I came to a conclusion:
Two low-time jumpers shouldn't be experimenting together. I highly discourage jumpers with 100-200 jumps from jumping with each other while freeflying...head down is usually out of the question. When my girlfriend started jumping I usually wouldn't allow another low-time jumper to jump with us as I was sure *I* could avoid a mess, but not my girlfriend.

Whenever I jump with someone new, I ask how many jumps they have, if it's just a few hundred, I ask them a few more questions.
Do you cork occasionally? - (beware)
Can you fly to someone and dock on them? (i.e. can they fly well enough to know how to stop and turn)
Do you feel confident that if I came flying at you that you'd be able to move? (same reason as above)

If they state that they are working on flying on their head, or that they're even good at it, I make it a sitfly. If they sitfly well-enough, the next time I have no problem flying head down with them.

These are things to think about when you're jumping with your low-jump-number friends. Keep dives small and simple. Work on the basics, facing off, staying close, going for toe-docks. Don't do anything too experimental without the guidence of a much more experienced diver. You need to realistically evaluate your skill as well as your jump-partner's, it's okay to question your and their abilities and to bow-out.

Ok at sitfly + ok at sitfly = ok
Ok at sitfly + iffy at sitfly = iffy
Iffy at stifly + iffy at sitfly = Bad Idea.
Ok at sitfly + ok at head down = iffy
Ok at sitfly + iffy at head down = Bad Idea.
Iffy at sitfly + iffy at head down = Very Bad Idea.

-R

thanks Kae, some very good advice. Much appreciated.

"Skydiving is a door"
Happythoughts

[LoudDan 0]

It's that whole experience thing. Any experienced freeflyer will tell you to NEVER fly directly underneath someone else, if your HD friend "couldn't help it" or "didn't realize where he was" this illustrates the point. Sounds like you guys could benefit from some one on one coaching, it helps trust me. This is a perfect illustration of how freeflyers need to be able to react faster to situations. You should consider yourself very luck, there are freeflyers who have been paralyzed and killed from the same kind of collisions you have described. Learn, fly safe, stay alive to enjoy what you have learned. To quote Missy Nelson, "Learning never stops".

Coming soon to a bowl of Wheaties near you!!

[Newbie 0]

yeah i know - we got lucky. The problem was, he wasn't right below me - he was off at an angle, but when he went HD, he actually floated up by presenting his back, and came at me from about a 60 degree angle (i stupidly thought because i was off his vertical axis, i would be safe )

Thanks - if we go up again together we will keep it nice and simple (i.e. head up the whole way) and certainly no bigger than a 3 way at this stage! He said on the ground he is not going to do any more HD until he has done some coached jumps with a very experienced guy on the dz.

"Skydiving is a door"
Happythoughts

[LoudDan 0]

You should see if Chris Lynch is anywhere around your area (London?). He's one hell of a freeflyer, as well as a very knowledgable, thourough, and patient instructor. I've had the priveledge of jumping with Chris, and you just can't help but learn from him. Go 5 or 10 coach jumps at a awhack, and your learning curve will skyrocket. Good Luck

Coming soon to a bowl of Wheaties near you!!

[freeflydrew 0]

Quote

This is a perfect illustration of how freeflyers need to be able to react faster to situations.

I agree, but I think that what's more important is a freeflyer's ability to react sooner, and not faster (unless I misinterpreted what you're saying). We need to see "it" happening before "it" happens, and not just be able to move and dodge real quick right before a collision... In freeflying, when somone is coming at you, they tend to pick up more and more speed until they put on the brakes, and you don't want to react late to their speed. Being able to dodge quickly isn't the best approach to safety. Awareness, a dive plan, and the ability to communicate effectively in the air will also help you avoid collision type situations. When you see the dive plan go to shit, and everything is about to get real chaotic, put up your hand in a "stop" position... Hold it there until the chaos settles... Even if you just sit there until the end of the skydive waiting. Eventually this will make the skydives much more productive. It's actually really difficult to fly with one hand out and hold your position without moving all over the sky yourself. Take a deep breath, regroup, relax, go on with your skydive.

[Zoter 0]

This situation is something I think about alot...
Its also a situation that alot of experienced freeflyers /jumpers preach about consistantly to avoid ....
In reality...we (low timers) still always just try and push the boundries just that little bit more then maybe we should do.....sure we all learn'something' from it......sometimes its good stuff....sometime its bad stuff.

I wont comment specifically on the situation....these are your buddies and you know them best.......

In my own circumstances....I always 'push' my ante up a little....just a little beyond my known abilities....but I do that in conjunction with people whose abilities and prob more important, inabilities
I am aware of.....I make sure they know the same about me

My credo on ' freefly experimenting'is never more than a two way ....and certainly not anything bigger when at least one person does not have enough ability to at least recognise a proximity and avoid a collision

Yes...I'm one of these people who gets a bit peeved at those who say DONT do this or that up to x jumps .....because it negates MY ability to make a reasonable decision about whats within my capability , its not ignorance I listen passionately to all opinions and advice.....but I'm acutely aware that if I expect people to respect my decision on that.... I shouldnt take the piss......shit will happpen things will go wrong and I will end up proving thier experience and advice as correct..

[Zoter 0]

I forgot to write at the beginning of my last post...
Very glad to hear you and your friends are Ok....