The current state of teaching/coaching sit flying and on to other types of fast fall rate flying

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"The current state of teaching/coaching sit flying and on to other types of fast fall rate flying"

Long title isn't it? But that is what I am asking.

This is a question for those of you who "teach" others the basics of sit flying when asked.

I've seen sit flying go through a few stages. Just when it became popular a few years back and a number of people had sit suits, head down flying came along and surpassed it in popularity, then it seemed to increase in popularity again and become more intergrated into head down flying.

I have also noticed a few stages (or cycles) of using sit suits, and then of not using them.

For those of you that are suggesting learning sit flying without sit suits (when teaching), the question is why?

After all they work quite well within the normal range of body sizes and weights (just like RW suits.)

Is it an "on to other types of fast fall rate flying" thing?

[NeedToJump 0]

I have never considered teaching sit flying using a sit suit mainly because I think a person should learn to fly their body and not a suit. A sit suit will allow a person to learn a bad body position and compensate for it. When the person takes the suit off he would not be able to fly.

Once someone can already fly their body then sure, play around with suits and see what they do.

Wind Tunnel and Skydiving Coach http://www.ariperelman.com

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Thanks for your response. Of course this absolutely begs the question- "Why do we not do this for face-to-earth relative work?" It could be said to be true of any flying style.

[NeedToJump 0]

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Why do we not do this for face-to-earth relative work?

We do, when was the last time you saw an AFF student wearing booties? There's also a difference - booties add more power to the legs for belly flying, they do not make the position more stable. A sit-suit drastically increases the drag on the upper body making it much easier to get stable without a good body position.

Wind Tunnel and Skydiving Coach http://www.ariperelman.com

[VectorBoy 0]

Some people believe they create too much strain for the shoulders. Others believe that you should be able to maintain a sit even in a tee shirt.

[skipro101 0]

I see it as a handicap and am glad ive never worn one.

[Bushy 0]

That's fine providing you live in a country that has (or skydive only in) fine, warm weather. Try this in UK during most of the year and you will probably be glad for an extra layer of protection from the elements!

Also, I presume you are not flying naked? And so any clothing you wear will act as friction to the passing air - so a jumpsuit merely provides a consistent friction across your body surface.

If learning a new discipline then surely consistency across as many variables as possible is a desirable as this allows the student to adopt the basic principles. Wearing different clothes will affect these variables and make it increasingly difficult to get to grips with the basics and that's when bad habits are created to compensate for the lack of basic knowledge.

Bad habits are generally adopted due to non-existent or bad coaching and not because of the threads you wear (I am sure there are exceptions to this but I am generalising here).

I will finish by saying that not wearing a suit is great and fun and far less restricting in movement but, learning the basics and progression must be learned from a stable platform and non-suit flying should be attempted only after the basics have been mastered.

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My question was actually much more basic than that.

What I meant was "If it is so important to teach someone to sit fly without a sit suit, then why isn't it equally important to teach someone to fly face-to-earth without an RW suit?"

Or asked another way, "If we insist that someone learn to sit fly wearing a sweatshirt and shorts (temperature permitting), why wouldn't we insist that
they learn the basics of face-to-earth flying (up to the point where the really need grippers) in a sweatshirt and pants or jeans?"

As fas as I can tell, the arguement about "learning to fly one's body" can apply to both.

I wasn't even at the point of discussing booties yet. Oh, my, that is another topic altogether and I hope this thread doesn't get hijacked by that discussion.

It seems that a number of people treat sit flying differently and insist on those that they teach not wear a sit suit. I'm trying to figure out why.

[SkymonkeyONE 3]

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It seems that a number of people treat sit flying differently and insist on those that they teach not wear a sit suit. I'm trying to figure out why.

I think it is because none, or only very few of the people instructing freeflying these days were even jumping when "sit suits" (aka: chute asis) were around. Most people jumping these days have never even seen such a suit, much less jumped one, therefore they see no merit in using such a suit as a tool. I never owned a big-winged sit suit, but I still own my original skysurfing suit that I had built in 1990. Skysurfing suits have much smaller wings and I, when jumping with others on chute assis jumps, found myself layed out pretty far on my back to keep from sinking out on them. True sit suits were really hard on your shoulders and arms in general, but I do believe they were a fine tool to get a newbie "feet down." That said, there are so few of those suits laying around these days that it would be asking a lot to expect a school to keep enough around to fit every potential student.

As to the "bad habit" remark, I disagree. I didn't learn any bad habits using my skysurf suits on head-up skydives. Likewise, I laugh at people who tell me I can't skydive head-down in my RW bootie suit. You will do well in whatever form of clothing you practice enough in, no matter the discipline.

Chuck

[NeedToJump 0]

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That's fine providing you live in a country that has (or skydive only in) fine, warm weather. Try this in UK during most of the year and you will probably be glad for an extra layer of protection from the elements!

I'm not sure I understand what you're getting at here? I didn't say that you should learn without anything, I just don't believe in learning in a suit designed as a handicap. Check out this picture of people in sit suits - those suits definitely are not keeping them warm...

I think wearing a freefly suit, or shorts and a sweatshirt is great for learning.

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Bad habits are generally adopted due to non-existent or bad coaching and not because of the threads you wear (I am sure there are exceptions to this but I am generalising here).

Yup, I agree. The problem with learning in a sit suit (or a freefly suit that is just way too baggy) is that it allows you to get away with a bad body position and hides the body position from the video / coach.

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As fas as I can tell, the arguement about "learning to fly one's body" can apply to both.

That's my view as well. A particular kind of suit (or lack thereof) should not affect whether or not you can fly in a specific position, it will merely aid it. I can freefly fine in my RW suit and fly my belly fine in my FF suit.

I prefer my belly suit for RW because it makes what I do on my belly more responsive and has grippers which help a lot with 4-way.

Wind Tunnel and Skydiving Coach http://www.ariperelman.com

[NeedToJump 0]

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You will do well in whatever form of clothing you practice enough in, no matter the discipline.

Exactly!

Wind Tunnel and Skydiving Coach http://www.ariperelman.com

[davelepka 4]

One point you may be missing, depending on your experience with sit suits, is that they are not designed to control the fall rate like an RW suit would, they are designed to facilitate an upright position without much balance or skill on the part of the jumper. A fair comparison to RW would be more along the lines of "Why dont we strap a drouge to RW students?". The drouge would hold them belly to earth regardless of thier actions.

Of course, the drouge would have them falling slower than other non-drouge belly flyers, much like the sit suit will slow the fall rate of a freeflyer to the very slow end of the freefly spectrum (another reason they are not popular).

The range of fall rate that a belly flyer can use, when compared to the range of a head up freeflyer is quite small. For this reason, belly flyers are suited up from day one in an appropriate suit (baggy, tight, whatever). This allows them to be relative to other jumpers (the whole point of RW).

Freeflyers can work together at a wide variety of speeds, meaning that a big guy and a little girl can be relative even if both are dressed the same, thus no suits are required. That is not to say that a freefly suit isn't helpful in freeflying, but that usually comes down the line a bit.

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Dave:
One point you [Gary] may be missing, ..., is that they are not designed to control the fall rate like an RW suit would, they are designed to facilitate an upright position....

Gary:
Dave, I am _astounded_ by this comment.

When Tony Uragallo designed his company's line of sit suits, the size of the wings were most definitely chosen to give the jumper a "standard fall rate" (if desired), at least among wearers of their suits!

And it works very well, just like when Garry Carter developed the "standard fall rate" (RW) Flight Suit.

I looked through my old documentation to try to find one of the order forms from back then. I think I recall seeing something specifically mentioned about wing size and fall rate, but I can't find it.

Have you possibly not seen a wide variety of suits designed for a wide variety of jumpers? I have seen many. The wing sizes are proportional to the jumpers body size/weight.

Edited to add:
If you have, and you have not observed the proportional wing sizes to effectively manage the fall rate, it is probably because this is (granted) more difficult to do at the higher fall rates. In other words, I believe you if you say that you have not seen it work well.

To me the Air Time Designs SitSuit "standard fall rate" just seems to work so well.

[78RATS 0]

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I presume you are not flying naked?

Tried it once. Kept getting smacked in the face.

Rat for Life - Fly till I die
When them stupid ass bitches ask why

[NeedToJump 0]

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When Tony Uragallo designed his company's line of sit suits, the size of the wings were most definitely chosen to give the jumper a "standard fall rate" (if desired), at least among wearers of their suits!

This may be true if everyone on the jump is wearing one of Tony's sit suits but I have found everyone wearing a sit suit to fall incredibly slow. I've done two ways (very confortably) with me on my belly and a person sit flying in a sit suit doing docks, linked barrel rolls, etc. I'm 5'9" 155 so I don't fall too fast on my belly and I did not have to arch very hard to stay with the sit flyer.

Wind Tunnel and Skydiving Coach http://www.ariperelman.com

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[NeedToJump]:
This may be true if everyone on the jump is wearing one of Tony's sit suits but I have found everyone wearing a sit suit to fall incredibly slow.

Peek:
I would think so too. That's why my original question included "and on to other types of fast fall rate flying".

"Learning to sit fly" might mean something different to people now. I'm thinking to some degree it now means learning a sit position in preparation for turning over head down and falling at basically the same speed in both positions.

[DAMO 0]

I don't think sit suits necessarily teach bad body position, they do tend to teach people to rely more on the arms for stability.
Ideally people should be learning to use the legs for stability leaving the arms free to take grips, give peace signs, etc.

[prcastro 0]

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***I have never considered teaching sit flying using a sit suit mainly because I think a person should learn to fly their body and not a suit.

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I happen to agree with that statement, that a person should learn to fly their body, but why is it then that most freefly "experts" repeatedly harp on the use of a freefly suit to help you fly? Wouldn't you agree that at least big freefliers benefit greatly from suits, especially baggy ones with lots of drag? Do you really think any freeflier who's been freeflying with a suit for awhile can fly just as well without it, or at least be able to slow him or herself down enough to stay with a group?

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[Trent 0]

Finally someone said it... it really isn't about flying your arms anyway. Feet and legs guys, feet and legs.

Oh, hello again!

[freeflybella 0]

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Feet and legs guys, feet and legs.

...not to argue or hijack but I'd put hips before feet and legs. Either way, your point is right on, relying on arms for stability is counterproductive.

Baggy suits are like training wheels for beginners. They will assist you in getting vertical - I'd suggest once you have some familiarity with vertical body positions, that you get out of baggy suits. Learn to fly your body without the help of drag.

Once you start flying with a set group of people and want to adjust your range in fall rate - you could choose a suit, with the appropriate amount of drag, to give the largest window of movement. (I.e., if you're small and jump with big guys - less drag. If you're big and jump with small guys - more drag)

Action expresses priority. - Mahatma Ghandi

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freeflybella:
Baggy suits are like training wheels for beginners. They will assist you in getting vertical - I'd suggest once you have some familiarity with vertical body positions, that you get out of baggy suits. Learn to fly your body without the help of drag.

peek:
Would you please qualify this with regard to fall rate?

General comment to all who support not wearing suits/baggy suits/wings:

I think many people assume a group of skydivers who are about the same size and weight doing these things. It works great for them, but adjusting your body position only works up to a point when people are of drastically different sizes and shapes.

[Trent 0]

The only problem I have with saying hips first is that it kind of discounts the fact that you have 2 HUGE wings that can work independently, legs. Sometimes legs alone are enough to get a job done... like in turns, fall rate, docking, etc... hips come in in larger movements like forward and backwards driving and sidesliding.

Either way, like you said, no arms please!

Oh, hello again!

[freeflybella 0]

I did qualify it - in my original post.

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Once you start flying with a set group of people and want to adjust your range in fall rate - you could choose a suit, with the appropriate amount of drag, to give the largest window of movement. (I.e., if you're small and jump with big guys - less drag. If you're big and jump with small guys - more drag)

Action expresses priority. - Mahatma Ghandi

[freeflybella 0]

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The only problem I have with saying hips first is that it kind of discounts the fact that you have 2 HUGE wings that can work independently, legs. Sometimes legs alone are enough to get a job done... like in turns, fall rate, docking, etc... hips come in in larger movements like forward and backwards driving and sidesliding.

I agree. Mostly. Except the 'discounting' part. I think when teaching freefly (although I'm not a coach - I was taught this way and believe in it), emphasizing that all movement originates with the hips (the center) is a good way to teach fluid muscle memory.

We are NOT disagreeing!

Action expresses priority. - Mahatma Ghandi

[peek 20]

Yeh, I guess you did! I must admit I get concerned about fall rate rather easily.