USPA Freefly Award? (kinda long, sorry)

[WrongWay 0]

Okay, so you see some guy out on a dropzone you've never been to. He has a nice looking freefly suit, a nice rig, wears a camera on his head, and asks you to go out and freefly with him. You ask him how many jumps he has, and he says "about 600". Just by looking at this guy and the way he talks about it, you simply assume he's a capable freeflyer. So you go out with him......READY, SET, GO.....and he's corking all over the sky. You survive the dive (after many close calls) and get to the ground, where he says "That was f*cking AWESOME!!!". You find out later that this guy has been doing zoo dives for 500 jumps, making no effort to learn precision and safety, etc. I'm sure everyone here has seen at least one case of this somewhere, whether it be in freefly, RW, canopy piloting, whatever. Myself being a freeflyer and a person that believes in learning and bettering yourself and your flying through hard work and coaching, I personally think that we need a better system of determining who is going to complete a four way round with ease and who's going to crash into everyone trying.

At this time, the only things we have in the USA to recognize good freeflyers (other than reputation) are the AD, the 3D Award, and the old "How many jumps do you have?" question. The AD is a good way to know someone is a good head down flyer, but what does it say about their head up flying? (Not to mention it costs a lot....) The disadvantage of the 3D Award is the fact that you need three people to do it. Some (smaller or belly oriented) dropzones have very few freeflyers who can accomplish this, and if you don't have many, then a jumper, as an individual, has no means of getting the award. The problem with "How many jumps do you have?" is a very vague question these days. The person could have 1000 jumps but 900 would be RW. I've personally seen guys with 600 jumps competing on a world level (and a few with <1000 on the new record....), and I've also seen guys with 1000 jumps flail and cork on every dive. "How many jumps do you have?" doesn't cover coaching, tunnel time, or even the effort to learn, making the determination of the freeflyers level to be nearly impossible without jumping with them.

I've put a lot of thought into this, and I'm considering contacting USPA and running the idea of freefly awards by them so we can more easily distinguish safe freeflyers from unsafe ones.

However, we all know how USPA can be with their "We wanna squeeze all the money we can out of people with required ratings" crap, which poses a problem for us. This is why I would personally push more towards an optional award, as opposed to a required rating. I'm thinking something that would be similar to the British FF1 and FF2, where one would go out with a coach or instructor and prove basic and advanced maneuvers on all axes.

The question is, would it be worth it? Would it be worth running the risk of some cheesy USPA Freefly Coach Rating and them charging 700 bucks for a class for people who are already coaches? Could we trust the USPA to keep it an optional award system and not force us, as individuals, to do something that we don't want to?

I'm really not sure where I stand on it yet, to be honest. I like the idea of optional awards or accomplishments, but I would hate running the risk of having freefly "USPAized" and having them charge us hundreds of dollars to do the stuff we already do. The dropzone at which I learned to skydive is not USPA. I don't have a coaches rating and at this point I don't see a need for it. I don't have any special USPA freefly awards or anything either. Like I said, I like the idea of a cheap or free system, but I don't know if we should place our trust with USPA or not, as many times they have screwed good jumpers out of time and money for a useless rating.

If you think it's worth the risk, please post what you would like to see in such an award system, and why. If you don't think it's worth it, then please state why as well. I'm really wanting open opinions from experienced freefly coaches as well.

Thanks for reading my super long post, and forgive any run on sentences.

Wrong Way
D #27371 Mal Manera Rodriguez Cajun Chicken Ø Hellfish #451
The wiser wolf prevails.

[freeflydrew 0]

I think that Levin had put a lot of this together... Maybe he, or someone who knows the details of it will chime in about it...

[WrongWay 0]

Quote

I think that Levin had put a lot of this together... Maybe he, or someone who knows the details of it will chime in about it...

Yup, the Rebel Freeflyer License System. It was a good idea, but never really went through. Besides, Levin seems to have gone MIA.

Wrong Way
D #27371 Mal Manera Rodriguez Cajun Chicken Ø Hellfish #451
The wiser wolf prevails.

[78RATS 0]

What about a "baby steps" award system like RW has. Falcon, Eagle, Double Falcon...


Of course we would wanna call it something cool like dragon or double wookie

Rat for Life - Fly till I die
When them stupid ass bitches ask why

[IMGR2 0]

Yeah! Robert already has a Spanking Monkey Award.

WW, I totally agree with you on this one. I feel like I am somewhat of an accomplished freeflier but that 3-D award kicks my ass. Havnt been able to get that one yet. But I will one day.

Let me know if there is anything the Rats can do to help.

[WrongWay 0]

Quote

WW, I totally agree with you on this one. I feel like I am somewhat of an accomplished freeflier but that 3-D award kicks my ass. Havnt been able to get that one yet. But I will one day.

Yeah dude I think if anything it's because it takes three people. The hardest thing about the dive IMO would be switching up that stairstep....whew.....

Quote

Let me know if there is anything the Rats can do to help.

Okay, tell me, should we go to USPA or do you think a group of freeflyers could set up a non-profit organization to address the issue???

Wrong Way
D #27371 Mal Manera Rodriguez Cajun Chicken Ø Hellfish #451
The wiser wolf prevails.

[IMGR2 0]

Quote

Okay, tell me, should we go to USPA or do you think a group of freeflyers could set up a non-profit organization to address the issue???

Watch out for this one. Your big hurdle is if its not USPA controlled and you are in charge of it, you will for sure get the "skygod", "ego" flames.
Look at what Olav did with the Space Games and the AD license. I personally think it was awesome and I know many others who believe the same. But you still have the ones that will bash Olav for trying.

And if it is USPA controlled now we are back to the whole coaches thread. What stops someone from sitting through a $200 class and having so-so skills and recieve a freefly rating much like they are doing in the coaches rating.

[hookitt 0]

I've put a lot of thought into this, and I'm considering contacting USPA and running the idea of freefly awards by them so we can more easily distinguish safe freeflyers from unsafe ones.
===========

Thanks but no thanks. I meet many very competant and talented freeflyers in a 2 way format that bock at fallrate on larger dives. You're always going to get a flailer. In fact even people with awards and ratings are often included in that category.

The USPA can't possibly determine (at least yet) how and award system can take place. The millenium (3d) can be fooled very easily. 2 good flyers and one not so hot flyer can pull it off no problem. We did it our first try. At the time, one of the flyers was supposed to be a good flyer but was all over the place. We sent in but it was not recognized yet and the first few applicants were scrapped.

The AD system was fine for the most part. Unfortunately it's political in nature. I don't care how it's run but others take issue with it. Also, does AD award make you competant to take on a 4 way? Does it mean you can dodge the person coming at you? No, it means you can fly straight down take a ball out of the air and have a fairly good semblance of control. It's not bad though.

I can honestly say, I'd never take a class to get a coach rating. I agree with the 200 buck statement.

The way to get better is find a mate and practice together one on one. Get some coaching if possible but the one on one training with your buddy is the best way to expand your capabilities. Coaching doesn't hurt either :)

My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

[wzettler 0]

Quote

millenium (3d) can be fooled very easily. 2 good flyers and one not so hot flyer can pull it off no problem.

Quote

The way to get better is find a mate and practice together one on one. Get some coaching if possible but the one on one training with your buddy is the best way to expand your capabilities. Coaching doesn't hurt either :)

I'm a pretty low-timer newbie type so keep that in mind.
I agree 100% with this.

Also, as far as awards like RW (such as falcon, eagle, etc), I don't subscribe to them. I have qualified to get one of them but I didn't send in the paper and get it. Jumping to me is not about getting awards. Thats fine if thats your thing, but I am not going to send in for awards. I don't jump to get awards and at this point I don't care if I don't get on the "hot" jumps. I don't think I ever will. Anyway, thats my worthless point of view...

I think when Jesus said "love your enemy" he probably meant don't kill them.

[WrongWay 0]

Quote

Watch out for this one. Your big hurdle is if its not USPA controlled and you are in charge of it, you will for sure get the "skygod", "ego" flames.
Look at what Olav did with the Space Games and the AD license. I personally think it was awesome and I know many others who believe the same. But you still have the ones that will bash Olav for trying.

You're absolutely right on all of that.

Quote

And if it is USPA controlled now we are back to the whole coaches thread. What stops someone from sitting through a $200 class and having so-so skills and recieve a freefly rating much like they are doing in the coaches rating.

This is also true. Hence the dilemma of the post.

It seems all of this is a lose/lose situation. I agree that no awards or licenses should be given for the sake of vanity, but I also feel we need a better system. I suppose that to have a better system we must either sacrifice reputation and respect by doing it ourselves, or sacrifice our control and freedom by turning it over to the USPA. It's a shame that we can't have change without loss, but that's evolution for ya.

Wrong Way
D #27371 Mal Manera Rodriguez Cajun Chicken Ø Hellfish #451
The wiser wolf prevails.

[hookitt 0]

Quote

I don't jump to get awards and at this point I don't care if I don't get on the "hot" jumps. I don't think I ever will.

You will care eventually. You'll be creating your own hot dives soon enough any way so you probably won't even notice that you're already on the hot dives.

My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

[davelepka 4]

A USPA award won't help the problem you're addressing. When was the last time you overheard an RW load organizer ask a jumper "So, do you have your Falcon Award? Have you got your quadruple Eagle Badge thingy yet?". Probably never hear dthat, but I'm sure you've heard, "Are you comfortable in that exit position? Can you back into your slot on the second point?".

It's up to you to investigate into a new-to-you jumper a little more than assuming nice gear and a high jump numbers makes the flyer. Ask tough questions about abilites and skills, and design a dive around them, provided you have the skills to control the dive if the plan goes astray (meaning you can get out of the other guys way). If you cannot control a dive, and think the other guy cannot as well, maybe you need to pass, and do a solo, or locate another possible partner.

I've done video for AFF jumps where the AFF I did things I would never expect a rated individual to do. Even if there was a freefly rating, and a jumper had it, you need to do several jumps with them before 'trusting' that they will perform as needed.

[rehmwa 2]

Quote

Quote

I don't jump to get awards and at this point I don't care if I don't get on the "hot" jumps. I don't think I ever will.

You will care eventually. You'll be creating your own hot dives soon enough any way so you probably won't even notice that you're already on the hot dives.

I also remember static line students way back saying that didn't much care for freefall either. They just liked the canopy ride.

They grew out of that also.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[blazetailman 0]

I think having a few awards similar to the falcon and such gives a person a reason to jump and improve their skills and safety. I had an organizer ask me about the Falcon. Got a few other jumpers and we didi it. I was excited. Never sent the award in. Used the money for jump ticket. But I accomplished the skill.

I think if there were awards for freeflying based on skill, discipline they would be very welcomed. People are looking for jumps to do, they don't want to do zoo loads.

I think this would be a good use of the forum to have ideas submitted, refined and sent to the USPA. I know they would love the input of a plan that was thought out.

www.canopyflightcenter.com
www.skydivesac.com
www.guanofreefly.com

[hookitt 0]

hmmm... Peter you do have a point. Like a vertical falcon and such.

My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

[blazetailman 0]

well my concept is the award is based on skill. Just like the Falcon is. A skill that is defined as 4way with so many points. I think we can cater it to the needs of the disciplne. Head down with "#" of people doing "#" of points with complete breaks. Some one with a D lic. can sign it off.

Something simple. when it comes to jumping with groups its up to the organizer or the most expereinced person to slot people where they go, breif them and keep it from becoming a zoo load.

If some one has trouble with fall rate, or other flying problems the organizer or another experienced jumper should give that person a few tips to improve on what happened.

I know some freefliers don't like debreifs or shine them off but they are an important part of safety and learning in our sport.

www.canopyflightcenter.com
www.skydivesac.com
www.guanofreefly.com

[blazetailman 0]

well, if we were to add a skill based freefly award:

What would we name it?

How many people on the jump?

Are the doing vrw? if so how many points?

is it all head down? Sit?

Technically, you could get a falcon, double falcon, eagel and double eagle doing vrw. Points are points regardless of what attitude you are in......

www.canopyflightcenter.com
www.skydivesac.com
www.guanofreefly.com

[blazetailman 0]

Tim, we could get 2 others and get someone a falcon doing a 4 point 4way. Star, flower, open acc, 2way with the others stining packpacks.

www.canopyflightcenter.com
www.skydivesac.com
www.guanofreefly.com

[hookitt 0]

Quote

Tim, we could get 2 others and get someone a falcon doing a 4 point 4way. Star, flower, open acc, 2way with the others stining packpacks.

That's a great Idea. It's been done a few times and I'd completely forgotten. Peter, I think you're onto something. It goes well with wrongways thinking.

Awards that are more fun, rather than an AD type license could go over rather well. It's a great skill builder.

My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

[Trent 0]

The 3-D award is a pretty valid test of someone's flying skill. Granted having 2 pro freeflyers with you would kinda skew it a little, but even for some "pros" it's proven hard to get. If someone has really earned the 3-D award, they can't be too horrible. Yes the dive is challenging, and that's the point. If you can do it, it says a lot about your flying. That's not including people who may have the award but maybe didn't actually earn it. It would be much more viable if the USPA required video to get the award...

Oh, hello again!

[blazetailman 0]

Does the uspa currently require video for the 3d?

www.canopyflightcenter.com
www.skydivesac.com
www.guanofreefly.com

[Trent 0]

They didn't in the beginning... dunno if they do now or not.

Oh, hello again!