Bill Booth....Collin's Lanyard & Skyhook

[alan 1]

Bill, you provide a considerable amount of expert and valuable information here. Can you discuss the two? Should the Collin's Lanyard be standard on RSL equipped rigs? What about the Skyhook AND a Collin's Lanyard? Any and all thoughts would be welcome. There have to be a few people out there thinking "Collin's Lanyard, what's that?".

alan

[Hooknswoop 19]

From RWS's web page:

"Skyhook RSL

A normal RSL does one thing. It automatically pulls the reserve ripcord pin following a breakaway. The new Relative Workshop Skyhook RSL goes two steps further.

1. It automatically releases the non-RSL riser in case the RSL riser was released prematurely by itself. (You wouldn’t want your reserve deploying with half your main still attached, would you?)

2. It then uses your departing malfunctioned main canopy as a super pilot chute to deploy your reserve canopy faster than was ever before possible."

Hook

[betzilla 56]

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1. It automatically releases the non-RSL riser in case the RSL riser was released prematurely by itself. (You wouldn’t want your reserve deploying with half your main still attached, would you?)

It's the Collins lanyard that does this. You can't get a Skyhook without a Collins, by the way.

-Betsy

[alan 1]

Yes, I've read that. I just thought some discussion and explanations here by Mr. Booth would be beneficial and reach more people. Maybe I was wrong and should just assume everyone will get all of the information they need from the RWS web-page and manuals. It does provide a nice start though.

alan

[billbooth 10]

I believe that if you jump an RSL, you should have a Collins' Lanyard" or the French "LOR" system (which is basically two RSL lanyards, connected to two reserve closing pins, through two reserve loops) installed. An RSL that fires your reserve after one riser has released is simply not as safe as an RSL that won't fire until you are completely free of your broken away main. (People have died of this particular problem, by the way.)

We have required the "Collins' Lanyard" (which automatically cuts away the other side if the RSL side riser goes first for any reason) on our tandem rigs for over three years now, because a single riser release is much more likely on a tandem rig. However, they can also happen on a solo rig.

The Skyhook RSL would not be a reasonable device without the Collins' Lanyard, because in case of a single riser release on the RSL side, it would haul the reserve freebag out of the container, and plant in "right smack dab" in the middle of the remaining line groups in about a quarter of a second. This would all but guarantee a reserve malfunction. (The LOR system is not compatable with the Skyhook, because if one riser went without the other, it would try to pull the reserve bag out of still closed container with a lot of force, doing damage for sure, and possibly locking up the resever container by bending the closing pin.)

[skydiverek 60]

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We have required the "Collins' Lanyard" (which automatically cuts away the other side if the RSL side riser goes first for any reason) on our tandem rigs for over three years now, because a single riser release is much more likely on a tandem rig. However, they can also happen on a solo rig.

Has it ever been offered on solo rigs??? If not, why? Just curious.

[SkyMissy 0]

Yes, it's just a lanyard. I think the RWS website will even show you how to make one.

________________________________________________
Mike

[skydiverek 60]

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Yes, it's just a lanyard. I think the RWS website will even show you how to make one.

It's just that I have not heard of any solo jumper using it since it was invented in 1998 or so... I was wondering why it is critical to use it with SkyHook, but not with standard RSL...

[billbooth 10]

Before I "pushed" Collins' Lanyards of all our solo rigs, I wanted the integrated design (introduced on the Sigma Tandem System) to be thoroughly field tested in the more controlled environment of tandem. This testing was also necessary before I could introduce the Skyhook. This testing done, we started setting up all Vectors and Microns for the Collins' Lanyard installation at the same time as we introduced the Skyhook. So the Collins' has been available on all Relative Workshop containers with RSL's, with or without the Skyhook, for quite a while now. All you have to do is ask.

[deathtrap 0]

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Before I "pushed" Collins' Lanyards of all our solo rigs, I wanted the integrated design (introduced on the Sigma Tandem System) to be thoroughly field tested in the more controlled environment of tandem.
So the Collins' has been available on all Relative Workshop containers with RSL's, with or without the Skyhook, for quite a while now. All you have to do is ask.

OK, now I'm confused. You wanted to do field testing where there are two lives involved instead of one? How much extra did it cost to have the Collins Lanyard added to a standard RSL? Why not make it standard after you were satisfied with the testing? I find it interesting that you preach safety, but don't make many of those "safety" features standard on your rigs.

[diverdriver 5]

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OK, now I'm confused. You wanted to do field testing where there are two lives involved instead of one? How much extra did it cost to have the Collins Lanyard added to a standard RSL? Why not make it standard after you were satisfied with the testing? I find it interesting that you preach safety, but don't make many of those "safety" features standard on your rigs.

Hey, "Riled Up", I suggest you use a different tone. Bill Booth is one of our pioneers and I'm sure he has reasons for doing things he's done. Your last comment was not necessary to getting those answers.

I imagine that putting the Collin's Lanyard on Tandem rigs first is because they are jumped more often. I know at Skydive Chicago we can field test things fairly quickly for wear and fit. There might be something that we learn from that experience that will make the OPTION on your rig more effective or last longer or both. But, that's for Bill to answer.

Remember, people can't hear the tone of your voice when you type things on the WWW.

Chris Schindler
www.diverdriver.com
ATP/D-19012
FB #4125

[AggieDave 6]

Not to mention that there had been a tandem fatality from a riser break/RSL fire before Mr. Booth put the Collin's Lanyard tandem rigs. That would also drive him to put it on his tandem rigs, to prevent that from happening.

What a lot of people don't understand is that TM gear wears out a LOT faster then normal sport gear. There is a jump-number/wear-out chart used by TMs to help monitor their gear and a lot of components have to be replaced at what seems by sport gear standards to be relatively low jump numbers.

You can also look at it this way. Tandems are a bit of a controlled environment. They always open between 5500 and 4500, they're always only doing one thing (falling basically straight down), the deployment speeds are ususally roughly the same, etc.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[Clownburner 0]

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You can also look at it this way. Tandems are a bit of a controlled environment. They always open between 5500 and 4500, they're always only doing one thing (falling basically straight down), the deployment speeds are ususally roughly the same, etc.

..Not to mention they're always jumped with a specially-trained instructor. Sport rigs are often jumped by totally clueless 50-jump wonders (like me).

7CP#1 | BTR#2 | Payaso en fuego Rodriguez
"I want hot chicks in my boobies!"- McBeth

[deathtrap 0]

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Hey, "Riled Up", I suggest you use a different tone. Bill Booth is one of our pioneers and I'm sure he has reasons for doing things he's done. Your last comment was not necessary to getting those answers.

There was no tone implied, I was just curious about some statements, and making an observation. I know who Bill Booth is, who better to answer my questions? You and Aggiedave have brought some good points to light that I hadn't thought about, and that Bill left somewhat open-ended.

[billbooth 10]

The 3 preceding posts have answered your questions very well I think. You have to leave some room for personal choice in parachute gear. For instance, all our rigs are set up for Cypres. I think everyone should jump an automatic opener. However, I don't require that you have a Cypres or Vigil before you can jump my gear. I could remove the single most common cause of death on my (and everyone else's) gear by refusing to make containers for small mains...but I don't. Gear is already 10 times safer than the jumpers using it. It's how people use gear that kills them.

[Hooknswoop 19]

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Gear is already 10 times safer than the jumpers using it. It's how people use gear that kills them.

I think this bares repeating.

Is this Booth's law #4?

Hook

[Rdutch 0]

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The 3 preceding posts have answered your questions very well I think. You have to leave some room for personal choice in parachute gear. For instance, all our rigs are set up for Cypres. I think everyone should jump an automatic opener. However, I don't require that you have a Cypres or Vigil before you can jump my gear. I could remove the single most common cause of death on my (and everyone else's) gear by refusing to make containers for small mains...but I don't. Gear is already 10 times safer than the jumpers using it. It's how people use gear that kills them.

Bill the one thing I dont think these people are understanding, is that Tandem riser's, are designed to break if an opening is so hard it would hurt, or kill the passenger's. as you know (since its your idea) and not many people do know. A sport rig, is hardly ever going to open hard enough to kill the user, (except with a head down fast opening ect.).
So the need for the collins lanyard is greater with a tandem system, than a sport system any day. This is one of the many things that RWS planned out well, and that is what makes them such a good company. Designing a riser to be extremely secure and strong, yet able to break if needed under a severe opening, while also having a system like the collins lanyard to make sure if one riser breaks the other one will be cut away, and the reserve will fire. Maybe you can invent a system that you cant have an out of sequence deployment with a tandem, then you would have the safest tandem system in the world. Oh yeah too late.

Ray
Small and fast what every girl dreams of!

[AggieDave 6]

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is that Tandem riser's, are designed to break if an opening is so hard it would hurt, or kill the passenger's

From my understanding (note I am NOT a rigger) so are a sport rig's risers.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[Rdutch 0]

You might want to look into that a little, maybe some manufacturers might say that. But not many sport risers are designed to break before the passenger. Ask about webbing types and strengths and why manufacturers use certain webbing types. Mini risers are usually built for pack volume and convinience, not to break before the passenger. The whole reason RWS tandem risers are designed to break is because a terminal tandem opening (especially a slammer) is nothing like a terminal opening for a single person opening. I have talked to Bill about this a few times, hopefully he will explain it all to you and me.

Ray
Small and fast what every girl dreams of!

[AggieDave 6]

Thank you for the good reply, I will definately talk to my rigger and gear manufacture about this!

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[jrcrackers 0]

If your going to design a riser to break, why not have it break above the RSL attachment. There would be no need for the colins lanyard. It would make things simpler and for the most part simpler is safer

[Jib 0]

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If your going to design a riser to break, why not have it break above the RSL attachment. There would be no need for the colins lanyard. It would make things simpler and for the most part simpler is safer

I guessing that it's because both aren't going to break at the same time. If the opening's bad enough to break the riser, you risk a stunned TM still attached by one riser to the main. If the cypress fired into that...

--------------------------------------------------
the depth of his depravity sickens me.
-- Jerry Falwell, People v. Larry Flynt

[rigging65 0]

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I guessing that it's because both aren't going to break at the same time. If the opening's bad enough to break the riser, you risk a stunned TM still attached by one riser to the main. If the cypress fired into that...

I don't think that answers the question. If you've got a "stunned TM" and the Cypres fires, how is that different than if it took the RSL with it?

As I remember, there was never a problem with large risers breaking, only Ty XVIIs...so when did we start breaking Tandem Risers? Can someone tell me when the last time you saw a Tandem with Ty XVII risers was?

Now, I know I don't know nearly everything about the gear in this sport, but one would think that a Riser that was engineered to break would have been used in someone's marketing. We've used RWS tandem systems for years here, and I've never heard about a frangible riser construction on them. Can someone please bring the glory to my eyes and enlighten me on this topic??

"...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward.
For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

[KellyF 16]

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If your going to design a riser to break, why not have it break above the RSL attachment. There would be no need for the colins lanyard. It would make things simpler and for the most part simpler is safer

I guessing that it's because both aren't going to break at the same time. If the opening's bad enough to break the riser, you risk a stunned TM still attached by one riser to the main. If the cypress fired into that...

What's to stop that from happening on the non-RSL riser? Both sides are built the same.

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[skydiverek 60]

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What's to stop that from happening on the non-RSL riser? Both sides are built the same.

A lot of solo jumpers lower one shoulder (usually caused by looking to the side at the PC after throwing it out). That puts loads one riser only for a short time.