What's the Best HD Video Camera?

[DSE 3]

Pros-great video, ease of use, low cost
Cons-AVCHD is hard for older computers and Final Cut Pro/Studio.

Can't comment on the FF3. Not a fan.

[cj1150gs 0]

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I want to use it for Free flying

Isn't the CX12 prone to the "shaky shaky" image stabilization problems that the CX7 suffers from in sit fly and stand up???

Carlos Martins
Portugal www.cj.smugmug.com

[DSE 3]

In theory, absolutely and expectedly.
In practice, I'm not seeing the same thing.

[CMiller 1]

My guess would be the upcoming scarlet from RED. Small body, less than 3 pounds, insane resolution. I am absolutely 100% getting this camera solely for skydiving.

http://www.red.com/epic_scarlet/

Of course the VERY best HD camera is the Genesis, but good luck putting that on your helmet.

[PhreeZone 15]

Got $10k to spend on a Camera... if so if Scarlet ever ships then you might be able to consider getting it. The cost of the lenses, the batteries, the accessories, etc adds up really fast and you'll be approaching 10k before you know it. The first version of Scarlet was to have shipped last fall/early this year and then RED came out and said they were redesigning the whole thing and now to wait until Fall/Winter 2009 for their units. Red has some of the biggest Vapor/hypeware there is at this point. I'll eat my words if they actually get units to ship on this expanded time scale and have the bugs worked out of them that are so prevalent in the systems now.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[CMiller 1]

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Got $10k to spend on a Camera... if so if Scarlet ever ships then you might be able to consider getting it. The cost of the lenses, the batteries, the accessories, etc adds up really fast and you'll be approaching 10k before you know it. The first version of Scarlet was to have shipped last fall/early this year and then RED came out and said they were redesigning the whole thing and now to wait until Fall/Winter 2009 for their units. Red has some of the biggest Vapor/hypeware there is at this point. I'll eat my words if they actually get units to ship on this expanded time scale and have the bugs worked out of them that are so prevalent in the systems now.

The fixed lens Scarlet will not be 10K. But even if it is the poster said money was no object. I own a RED ONE, and based on the performance of that camera, I can say with a good deal of confidence that the scarlet will probably rock.

The site has always said "delivery times and specs subject to change. COUNT ON IT." So really, it's no surprise at all.

[jumpwally 0]

great info, but what does pulling a plate mean ?

smile, be nice, enjoy life
FB # - 1083

[DSE 3]

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I own a RED ONE, and based on the performance of that camera, I can say with a good deal of confidence that the scarlet will probably rock.

The site has always said "delivery times and specs subject to change. COUNT ON IT." So really, it's no surprise at all.

Do you own a version 1, 2, 3,4,5,6,7,8, 9,10,11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, or a lucky 17?
We own two RED ONE's and are grateful that they're on a rental that we haven't seen for a few months.
I've seen three trouble-free RED cams in project work, and one of them was operated by a DIT that probably has forgotten more about the inner/outer workings of his camera than I'll ever know, eh Brooke?
it is indeed finally solidifying, but as RED stands now, it's still Jonestown. No serious project that hasn't enjoyed significant subsidation from Jim Jannard has yet produced using a RED-only system, AFAIK.
Still...it's definitely changed the market landscape. Watch for more excitement at NAB in a few months.

[Laszloimage 0]

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Panasonic HVX200 has 960 x 540 imager. They upsample vertically and horizontally to generate a 1280 x 720 image.

I got to work with the HVX200 last week-end. I made six jumps with it and shot some B-roll as well. I have to tell you guys SONY RULES! A few months ago I worked with the Sony V1U and have to tell you it’s so much better camera to work with (definitely out doors) than the Panasonic HVX200. The only cool thing about the Panasonic was the 60 frames a second at the 720p mode. Everything else sucked compare to the V1U. (AF, AE, dynamic range, low light, and so on…)
The interesting thing the reviews about the HVX200 are so good by professionals on B&H’s web site. I’m sure those “pros” never had use their Panasonic in skydiving or on the airplane in difficult light conditions.
One more time, SONY’s 3CMOS true 1080 sensor is providing way better image than the Panasonic 3CCD.
I hope I gonna have a chance to to work with the EX1 some day...
-Laszlo-

[DSE 3]

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One more time, SONY’s 3CMOS true 1080 sensor is providing way better image than the Panasonic 3CCD.
I hope I gonna have a chance to to work with the EX1 some day...
-Laszlo-

I can make that happen...
Yeah, the HVX is the greatest Koolaid EVER. Better than the RED Koolaid. At least RED is honest about what they're doing, attempting to do, and TMK, never have lied outright about anything. Panasonic lied.
P2 is ancient anyway. Sony offers 60p on the EX1/3...I love the EX1. Norman shot some beautiful footage with the EX1 this past week (from the Lake Elsinore event)

[CMiller 1]

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I own a RED ONE, and based on the performance of that camera, I can say with a good deal of confidence that the scarlet will probably rock.

The site has always said "delivery times and specs subject to change. COUNT ON IT." So really, it's no surprise at all.

Do you own a version 1, 2, 3,4,5,6,7,8, 9,10,11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, or a lucky 17?

15. It's true the camera has its quirks, but if you can't find qualified people to operate it, then that's not the camera's problem. It DOES take more research and dedication to make sure everything goes smoothly, but I have never experienced any major problems. It's not point and shoot.

[DSE 3]

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It's true the camera has its quirks, but if you can't find qualified people to operate it, then that's not the camera's problem. It DOES take more research and dedication to make sure everything goes smoothly, but I have never experienced any major problems. It's not point and shoot.

In an hour, I can have a half-way trained DV operator operating an F23 very well. In two hours, I can have that same guy running a VIPER, Genesis, SI2K, and similar. The RED camera is faulty and flawed in many, many ways. Anyone who can't admit that has had a little too much Koolaid. It's not at all a secret, just spend a few minutes Googling to see all the complaints.
REDCODE itself has a lot of issues, both in Premiere and FCS.

The camera should NEVER be an impediment to the creative process. The camera should be a fluid extension of the DP, nothing more. A "quirky" camera serves as a distraction in anything but a big-dick swinging contest. Good thing Jim Jannard doesn't make MARDs or reserves. We can't afford "quirky."

Yes, we own RED. But wouldn't dream of taking it to a paying project. Same with guys like Jody Eldred, John Faustino, Jon Fordham....no one will stick their neck out on the line for the sake of big dick. It's not about the camera. There are people that rent it...which is why we bought it.

IMO, RED is a great concept. My company bought into it, just as we've bought into F900/HDCAM, SI2K, XDCAM, HDV, and even a few AVCHD cams. We'll make more money in one week on a 900 than we'll make on the RED all year. Aside from the fact that neither the common workflow NLE nor delivery world is ready for 4K.

Yet it's been harmful to RED and the industry at-large, to have a reputable guy make a statement that he's gonna blow up the camera world, and then does it with a half-ass product that three years in, still can't function as advertised, and still can't function with a single operator without a DIT and factory support. As a moderator on the CreativeCOW, I'm constantly stunned by the number of guys that defend their $17,000.00 camera and its $20,000.00 support system.

Cameras are like pencils and paper. The writer shouldn't have to think about whether his pencil will write or not when the creative thought strikes. Or whether the pencil will get too hot and burn the writer's fingers or the paper before he captures a complete thought...

And back to topic, the RED isn't an HD camera anyway, so it's not really part of this discussion.

[mccordia 73]

Here in Holland its also a lot of RED advertising, but surprisingly low use in the actual commercial world.

For VFX plates (shooting at higher resolution to have some additional background plate to work with) its a good thing.
But in use, so combersome compared to other HD systems..

JC
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?

[jumpwally 0]

ahem !! anyone ?

smile, be nice, enjoy life
FB # - 1083

[CMiller 1]

If you can afford a Genesis or a Viper, then great. They look better than the RED anyway. But not everybody has that much money to spend. For filmmakers on a budget, the added hassle of learning the RED is worth it due to the savings.

Maybe just maybe, someone out there is looking to get great skydiving footage without spending a shit ton of money. Price/performance of RED cameras (especially the scarlet if the fixed lens version is reasonably priced) seems to me like a great way to go for freefall.

We're not talking about big budget shoots here, we're talking about a hobbyist.

And you're correct, I do think Jim is rather unprofessional.

[BMFin 0]

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Maybe just maybe, someone out there is looking to get great skydiving footage without spending a shit ton of money. Price/performance of RED cameras (especially the scarlet if the fixed lens version is reasonably priced) seems to me like a great way to go for freefall.

We're not talking about big budget shoots here, we're talking about a hobbyist.

And you're correct, I do think Jim is rather unprofessional.

I see your point, but I cant help to add that if someone actually starts to skydive with a RED (which ever model), in terms of equipment I would consider it quite professional and quite far from hobbyist.

5D Mark II on the otherhand could be the optimal choise of the hobbyist looking for quality

[DSE 3]

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Maybe just maybe, someone out there is looking to get great skydiving footage without spending a shit ton of money. Price/performance of RED cameras (especially the scarlet if the fixed lens version is reasonably priced) seems to me like a great way to go for freefall.

We're not talking about big budget shoots here, we're talking about a hobbyist.

And you're correct, I do think Jim is rather unprofessional.

Scarlet...? Oh yeah, that's the camera named for the color of Jim's face whenever anyone brings up the delivery or functionality of the RED. (couldn't resist). Scarlet is currently vaporware.
RED definitely isn't for a hobbyist. Sorry, but it's absurd to think so. NO hobbyist is spending 40K on a camera setup. At that price, SI2K blows RED outta the water. At 25K, SI2K blows RED out of the water, and it actually functions, completely and correctly, and doesn't burn the operator, either.
To keep folks from missing the context of the thread, neither RED, the SI2K, or the not-yet-seen Scarlet are HD cameras, they're all a higher resolution acquisition system.
If you're a "hobbyist" that wants a high end camera setup, Iconix and SI2K bodypack are the way to fly, IMO. Smaller, lighter, and the damn thing works. As advertised.
The thread has meandered a bit, but the answers are right here.
HD at the bottom to top:
AVCHD camcorder
HDV camcorder
XDCAM EX camcorder
Iconix/2K.

Price points from 500.00 to 27,000.00

JumpWally, a "plate" is a compositing layer, sometimes there are a lot of plates shot to build a composite. For example, if you're chromakeying someone into a shot, you'll need a background plate, a foreground plate, a reflective plate, and so forth. Think of them as 'transparency layers" that may or may not contain movement.
A couple DZ.commers are compositing artists, which means they layer these plates together, sometimes inserting animations, motion graphics, or live-action into these layers, tracking camera moves, shadows, lighting effects, etc.
Hope that helps?

[CMiller 1]

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Maybe just maybe, someone out there is looking to get great skydiving footage without spending a shit ton of money. Price/performance of RED cameras (especially the scarlet if the fixed lens version is reasonably priced) seems to me like a great way to go for freefall.

We're not talking about big budget shoots here, we're talking about a hobbyist.

And you're correct, I do think Jim is rather unprofessional.

I see your point, but I cant help to add that if someone actually starts to skydive with a RED (which ever model), in terms of equipment I would consider it quite professional and quite far from hobbyist.

5D Mark II on the otherhand could be the optimal choise of the hobbyist looking for quality

The RED One is certainly beyond the hobbyists' budget, but I don't think 5-6K for a fixed lens scarlet is totally out of range (XDCAM EX is around this). But, seeing as how DSE is so passionately against it, I guess I'll just concede.

[DSE 3]

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The RED One is certainly beyond the hobbyists' budget, but I don't think 5-6K for a fixed lens scarlet is totally out of range (XDCAM EX is around this). But, seeing as how DSE is so passionately against it, I guess I'll just concede.

*You* are the one that classified RED as a "hobbyist camera" in your post above.
As far as the Scarlet, it's hard to be "against" something that doesn't exist, and was yet another "take-out" marketing attempt on the part of Jim Jannard.
"Don't buy any camera til you see ours!" so the market slows down. Then at about the time the Scarlet is scheduled for release, it is announced that it's "dropped and undergoing a brand new design, but DON'T BUY A CAMERA TIL WE TELL YOU HOW COOL OUR REDESIGN IS!" It harms the market, it keeps people confused. Panasonic is another great "take out" marketing company.
I'm not passionately against RED or Scarlet, I'm passionately against people getting ripped off or drinking marketing Koolaid.
What is ironic about your statement is that you're arguing for support of a product you've never seen, touched, nor seen a frame of video from, yet you feel I'm "passionately" opposed to it.
Scarlet currently, is vaporware. RED currently, is a half-functioning camera per their own original announcement 3 years ago.
If you can support that business model, I've got some really cool timeshares on the beach in downtown Des Moines.