HD debriefing

[billvon 2,400]

Sorry if this has been posted before -

I've been on a lot of bigways where the debrief consists of staring at a screen, VHS tape paused on one frame, trying to tell whether the pink blob is higher or lower than the other pinkish blob. It has occurred to me that debriefing a bigway with HD video (1080p ideally, even 1080i would work since the relative motion is low on 'good' bigways.) would be far superior.

The camera side of things is easy. The screen/projector is also straightforward. The biggest thing missing is the HD recorder/player. I know Blu-Ray recorders exist but are hideously expensive. Anyone have any other ideas?

Requirements:

Compatible input (as long as it matches the camera)
Component output
Playback must be useful to grizzled bigway veterans (i.e. anything more than a remote with "play" "pause" "forward" and "rewind" will confuse them)

[beowulf 1]

For video debrief you really don't need a Blu Ray disc player. In fact that will only make things take longer. It takes awhile to edit and render the video to AVCHD and write to DVD so it will play on a Blu Ray disc player. Too long for a video debrief. The best option is to have a High def TV and just plug the camera in directly via HDMI port. Then just use the remote that comes with the camera.

BTW unless the are using a really big and expensive camera you will only get 1080i, which is much better then standard def.

[Icon134 0]

I started using the component output on my HC5 for debriefs plugged into the back of a Samsung 37" LCD display (we have two in our hanger by manifest to show students their DVDs before they depart.)

I have recieved a number of coments about the picture quality and it really is much sharper then what people are used to... but it doesn't require anything special other then an HD capable monitor.

Scott

Livin' on the Edge... sleeping with my rigger's wife...

[dragon2 0]

Either dump the video to a laptop/pc using firewire (any tape-based HDV or miniDV camera), or straight to a tv screen using HDMI or RGB (any HDV camera). either of these wil give you very good output not comparable to VHS, even the regular old miniDV using firewire will be much better. BTW why do you need component output? That's just VHS quality again..?

I usually dump my own video to my laptop and set the file to play in a simple media player that can also do slow-mo and is real easy to "get" even for non-pc-people.

Media player I like:
http://www.download.com/Media-Player-Classic/3000-2139_4-10518778.html?tag=lst-9&cdlPid=10518777

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[idrankwhat 0]

Quote

Either dump the video to a laptop/pc using firewire (any tape-based HDV or miniDV camera), or straight to a tv screen using HDMI or RGB (any HDV camera). either of these wil give you very good output not comparable to VHS, even the regular old miniDV using firewire will be much better. BTW why do you need component output? That's just VHS quality again..?

I usually dump my own video to my laptop and set the file to play in a simple media player that can also do slow-mo and is real easy to "get" even for non-pc-people.

Media player I like:
http://www.download.com/Media-Player-Classic/3000-2139_4-10518778.html?tag=lst-9&cdlPid=10518777

We were trying to come with with a way to do this for an upcoming big way in Sept. I was thinking along the lines you mentioned but with the video playing out to a video projector. Anyone tried this? You should have a good quality signal leaving the laptop but I'm wondering how much might be lost on the way to the screen.

[dragon2 0]

Quality depends on the projector and on the output possibilities your laptop has. If you connect to the beamer using VGA or DVI port and the beamer has a nigh resolution it'll be much better than using s-video to a low-res beamer. The higher resolution the better, also the more light (lumen) thebeamer has the better, and use a high-quality conection between laptop and beamer and you're all set.

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[PharmerPhil 0]

Great thread. It amazes me how behind the curve many DZs are when it comes to debrief facilities. Even some with hi-def screens have them mounted up high, with no access to anything other than a composite or s-video cable.

I agree with Dragon on dumping to a computer if you want to view hi-def. It is faster than a burner, and doesn't wear out your camera (or tie it up). Particularly if you are using a tape-based camera; multiple reviews, rewinds, slo-mos, pauses, etc are just camera abuse. I was taught a long time ago to not let people abuse your equipment out of their convenience. These things cost money. I dub once, and they can review ad nauseam from that dub.

I have used a notebook for debriefs, but I often travel with a DVD-R burner just so they have something better than VHS to review from, It isn't high-def, but it is better than VHS. The only problem is you usually cannot move the DVD disc to other players without finalizing first. And many organizers want to watch the video behind closed doors before letting the masses view it on the big-screen. But you can simply move the DVD burner from one TV to another. At the end of the day, you finalize the disc, and the organizer has a copy of all the dives from that day.

One problem with projectors is most of them (certainly at DZs) are not hi-def. Also, they need much lower ambient light to get a good image, and this can be very hard to find at a DZ. Especially during the day, in a spot where you can put 20-200 people in front of the screen. I'd rather see multiple LCDs than one huge, dark screen.

[beowulf 1]

Does that media player play M2T files? I have not found any codecs for M2T or HDV formated files. I have to render as WMV if I want to play full screen on my computer.

[DSE 3]

Quote

For video debrief you really don't need a Blu Ray disc player. In fact that will only make things take longer. It takes awhile to edit and render the video to AVCHD and write to DVD so it will play on a Blu Ray disc player. Too long for a video debrief. The best option is to have a High def TV and just plug the camera in directly via HDMI port. Then just use the remote that comes with the camera.

BTW unless the are using a really big and expensive camera you will only get 1080i, which is much better then standard def.

If you have a computer purchased in the past 6 months, this is simply not so. AVCHD can be dealt with intelligently in *most* editing apps (except Adobe and FCS) and can non-recompression burn to BD or compress nicely to go to SD DVD as MPG 2
FCS sucks in this workflow, however.
Anyway...the HDMI or component out from any HD camcorder is the *BEST* option for debrief.
And....big or small...most HD is 1080i, which isn't at all relevant to camera sizes. 720p is all but dead. There is nothing consumer-available nor prosumer available that has a higher resolution than 1080i.
If you have an intelligent NLE, editing AVCHD, HDV, P2, HDCAM, Infinity, or plain vanilla MPEG4HD is all the same as editing DV, excepting the screen aspect ratio (SAR).

[beowulf 1]

All I know is when I take my video from my HC5 and write it to DVD in AVCHD for playback on a Blu Ray disc player it takes at least an hour to finish. I am using a quad core computer with Vegas Pro 8. I would think that would be too long of a wait for a video debrief. I don't have a Blu Ray disc burner mostly because the media is more expensive then I am willing to pay. Now if the video was already in AVCHD format then it would go much quicker.

[DSE 3]

this takes that long because you're recompressing MPEG2 to MPEG4 and that does take time. But if you were shooting AVCHD, and using a non-recompression software (such as Sony Vegas), then there is no recompression time.
Understanding the formats and their relationships to each other is pretty important.
If you have DVDA 5, and Vegas Pro 8, you wouldn't be recompressing your MPEG2 from your HC5, it would be a straight shot from the camera to BD.

[beowulf 1]

What is DVDA 5? Blu Ray disc?

[ltdiver 3]

Quote

I was taught a long time ago to not let people abuse your equipment out of their convenience. These things cost money. I dub once, and they can review ad nauseam from that dub.

I'll second this. If the DZ supplies the extra media then they can use it to their hearts content. My equipment needs to last it's usual lifetime and letting groups debrief over and over from it will wear it out incredibly quick.

ltdiver

Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon

[jurgencamps 0]

Quote

... The only problem is you usually cannot move the DVD disc to other players without finalizing first. And many organizers want to watch the video behind closed doors before letting the masses view it on the big-screen. But you can simply move the DVD burner from one TV to another. ...

Or use two identical dvdburners. So you don't have to finalise the dvd if you play the dvd on the other player (burner).

Jurgen

[beowulf 1]

DVDA 5, I get it now. It's an abbreviation of DVD Architect 5. Excuse me for being dense. Yes I did download and install it since it is free with Vegas Pro 8. I don't have a Blu Ray disc burner and won't buy one till the media comes down in price.

[AndreVideo 0]

Who needs Blue Ray for skydiving? For about four years I use an IOdata DVD player. It plays HD videos in all formats. One can record up to 10 jumps in m2t format. Plenty heh , one minute per jump. Last year I tested a Helios 3000. Similar to the IOdata but with an additional HDMI output. For no apparent reason this unit was slower and had problems with 1080i (25 MB/s), but worked for slightly compressed m2t files - down to 19 MB/s. Looks like both unit are related in spite of different manufacturers. By accident I used an old remote to control the new unit. Had no problems. Both unit can play, in addition to DVD disks, from memory sticks (USB input), and through internet cable from a computer. Didn't use them frequently. Regular DVD format (720x480) was good enough for two plane jumps.
One cannot record on these units but today every computer has a DVD burner. Capture first and burn a DVD, as a data disk, with m2t or mpg files.
Skydive and have fun,
Andre

[billvon 2,400]

>or straight to a tv screen using HDMI or RGB (any HDV camera).

That's what I've been doing for the smaller debriefs, straight from the camera via an RGB cable to a 37" 720p screen. I suppose that if I could get my hands on an older HC1 with a broken image sensor or lens I could use that as the deck. The remote is simple enough that even a 90's RW type like Dan could figure it out . . .

>BTW why do you need component output? That's just VHS quality again..?

Component (RGB) not composite.

[DSE 3]

But why would you burn a DVD for debrief?

[alge 0]

Quote

Quality depends on the projector and on the output possibilities your laptop has. If you connect to the beamer using VGA or DVI port and the beamer has a nigh resolution it'll be much better than using s-video to a low-res beamer. The higher resolution the better, also the more light (lumen) thebeamer has the better, and use a high-quality conection between laptop and beamer and you're all set.

.. and don't use too long cables between the laptop and projector. My job set up a fancy meeting room with really expensive projectors, but the output is blurry as hell because the cables are like 15 meters. According to Wikipedia you should stick to below 4.5 meters for 1920x1080 DVI; I'd guess the same applies to VGA. Just something to remember when you spec your debrief room. (-;

[mdrejhon 8]

Quote

.. and don't use too long cables between the laptop and projector. My job set up a fancy meeting room with really expensive projectors, but the output is blurry as hell because the cables are like 15 meters. According to Wikipedia you should stick to below 4.5 meters for 1920x1080 DVI; I'd guess the same applies to VGA. Just something to remember when you spec your debrief room. (-;

With a really good low-resistance DVI/HDMI cable, the distance can go quite far -- A good source of inexpensive high-quality cables can be found at www.monoprice.com (or similiar discount high-quality cable seller). A top-notch 10+ meter coated cable can perform better than the really crappy/cheap 4.5 meter chinese-made cables.

Back in the analog days, it was easy to tell the difference between 50-foot VGA cables. I was surprised how well cables that used silver-plated wires performed -- I have a 50foot silver-plated analog VGA cable that has a much sharper picture than a common 6 foot Belkin VGA cable. ($400 cable, which I got at a discount to $99 a few years ago). This very 50 foot cable had 1920x1080 quality indistinguishable from a 6 foot cable, and 1:1 pixel mapping on a digital was actually achievable without the usual analog blurring artifacts associated with long analog cables at high resolutions. I also used them back when I had my NEC XG135 CRT projector (139 pound beast!) This was the BetterCables.com Silver Serpent, I got one in the days before they started calling them the Silver Serpent... They still sell them even in VGA version, good stuff.

As a former electronics hobbyist, even back in high school/university days, silver has lower electrical resistance than copper (at room temp, anyway), and most of the electricity in a conductor moves near the surface of the conductor, so it made sense that even merely coating the copper wires with lower resistance metal , made a huge improvement to achieving longer distances without quality losses...

Either way, a very interesting tidbit -- excellent 50 foot cables can be engineered to outperform crappy cheap 6 foot cables (at least for VGA), and some report the same is true for HDMI and DVI cables, though quality can be hit-or-miss.

FWIW -- Monoprice has 50 foot HDMI cables with silvercoated copper wires for under $100. I highly recommend them when you need distance with least chance of problems with the widest variety of equipment, without needing to pay a fortune elsewhere... (There are $1000 'videophile' cables that perform far worse than these sub-$100 monoprice cables. I don't really believe in the $1000 hype stuff, but I believe in the good science of thick gauge, good conductors and good shielding, and good connectors)

For DVI instead of HDMI or VGA, monoprice doesn't have them silvercoated copper but larger gauge helps a lot too, especially for DVI. If you go long for DVI (i.e. 25feet, 50feet), make sure they are 24AWG not 28AWG. MUCH better! Approx $50ish for their top-quality 50 footer DVI cable.

High quality at good distance is doable, if you just get the right cable.

[PharmerPhil 0]

Quote

I don't really believe in the $1000 hype stuff, but I believe in the good science of thick gauge, good conductors and good shielding, and good connectors.

Amen!

[AndreVideo 0]

When DVD is in use I don't have to be there. Usually I pack my parachute when others are watching video. DVD makes decent slow mo and freeze frames. My HC-1 doesn't make slow mo.
Andre

[dragon2 0]

I agree with the dvd burning, saves wear and tear on your camera too. But your HC1 should do slow-mo just fine.

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[DSE 3]

Quote

When DVD is in use I don't have to be there. Usually I pack my parachute when others are watching video. DVD makes decent slow mo and freeze frames. My HC-1 doesn't make slow mo.
Andre

I don't understand. Slo mo can be done at camera, done with remote. In either event, you dont' have to be there, hand the remote to the instructor, who probably wants to pause, slow, stop anyway, and is likely doing same with DVD?

[AndreVideo 0]

You are right about slow motion. Didn't use remote for years - yes, it has a button. In contrary, my older JVC HD camcorder (HD1) did not have slow motion at all.