Snow glare causing dark pictures?

[everymansaved 0]

I've been using an SLR for a while now, but I'm not as proficient with it as I know some people on here are, so forgive me if this is an overly simple question. I've done about 80-100 still camera jumps so far, all of which were while I was on vacation in Perris, so I didn't have to worry about the snow! Until now, I'd shot using Aperature priority and setting an aperature around 8-9.5 so I could control the DOF more as I was using MF. I'd noticed that I was getting a little blur around the edges in lower light because the camera was compensating for the small aperature with a slow shutter speed, so I'd decided to try shooting shutter priority to control that. So, on to the question at hand... I was shooting a 4-way yesterday over snow covered ground, and pretty much all the pictures came out quite dark. I wish I'd have had the presence of mind to not just think "Ahh shit, none of them turned out! and deleted them all, but I did so I can't show you all. The weather was a clear blue sky with lots of sun, and like I'd said before, the ground was covered in snow, so there was lots of glare. I did a few test exposures on the ground with the shutter speed at 1/500 and they all turned out well, with the camera setting the aperature around 9.5-11. I took some exit shots of a guy doing a H&P from inside the plane which turned out fine, and I took a few of the team climbing out which also turned out extremely well, as did the exit shots. They were nice and sharp, lots of colour and brightness, etc... But every single picture I took of the team from above, with the ground in the background, turned out quite dark, to the point of them not being 'keepable.' Is it possible that the glare from the snow tricked the camera into using an incredible small aperature, but the light just wasn't there to actually expose the picture? It seems kind of unlikely to me, but it's all I could think of. I really wish I'd have kept the pictures so I could have attached them, or at least looked at the info on them to see what aperature was used. Does anyone have any other ideas? Thanks in advance!!

PS: Sorry for the long winded post. I was going to ask if anyone knew why the video came out all white too, but I'll save that for another day!

God made firefighters so paramedics would have heroes...and someone can put out the trailer fires.

[DSE 3]

Inside the plane looked OK at F9.5 and shutter of 1/500? You sure the camera isn't in some auto mode? I'd expect those to be awful dark, unless you've got ISO set very high.
The camera will expose for the brightest object, but it sounds lik you already know that.
You would have needed to set the exposure from the air, had you been wanting to pull this off better.
Without seeing the images, this seems awful slow. We have a lot of snow here, not having this issue with my 40D or 350, I shot perhaps 300 images yesterday (-24 at altitude, damn that's cold). Shutter at 1/250, ISO at 200.

[PharmerPhil 0]

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...But every single picture I took of the team from above, with the ground in the background, turned out quite dark...Is it possible that the glare from the snow tricked the camera into using an incredible small aperature(sic)...

I think you identified your own problem. My guess is the snow looked gray instead of white, right?. It is not really the glare though, but the fact that the snow is so light that the camera tries to auto-expose for a darker image. The fact that your exit shots were good, tells me you probably had good settings to start. But anytime you shoot something that is unusually light, or unusually dark, you have to dial in some compensation so the camera doesn't under- or over-expose. You could use auto-exposure compensation, but then you are likely to have over-exposed exits. Check your settings for the exit shots. If you dial them in as manual settings, it will probably work fine over the snow too. Or google "sunny 16" and use those settings. Snow shots are tough. Practice on the ground while you can. FWIW, whenever I shoot snow shots on the ground (if I have the time) I always bracket my shots to get just the right gradations in the snow.

[PharmerPhil 0]

You just got me thinking of a shot I took recently (attached). Look at how many different shades of white are in this image. This would have been almost impossible using auto-exposure, or all the snow would have looked ghastly gray. But this is one image, not a composite. There are some blown out whites in the foreground, but you can still differentiate the white on the hive where the sun hits it, the hive on the shaded side, the hive with the direct shadow from the sprig, the white trim on the barn, and you can still see details in the snow on the ground and on the roof behind.

[dragon2 0]

I just came back from a mostly very sunny skiing trip, I made the best photos with the camera set at +0.7 stop. Some others had theirs set to +1.0 stop.
If you shoot in RAW you have the best chance at fixing shots like these because you can control the lighting afterwards.

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[everymansaved 0]

When said inside the plane, I meant looking outside at the exit, so it was probably getting lots of light, I don't have the pictures here, so I can't tell you what aperature it used, but the TV was 1/500th. The ISO was 200. What do you mean by set the exposure from the air? I don't know much about the compensation stuff that Phil was talking about, but it sounds like he's on the right track, because the snow did look grey. Is this the +0.7 / +1.0 that dragon spoke of? When I'm in shutter priority, does it set the compensation, or does it stay @ 0 unless you tell it otherwise?

God made firefighters so paramedics would have heroes...and someone can put out the trailer fires.

[PharmerPhil 0]

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...Is this the +0.7 / +1.0 that dragon spoke of?

Yes, this is auto exposure compensation (AES). But it does not automatically happen. You have to set it. AES basically adjusts the auto exposure parameters to over- or under-expose your image by a set amount.

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When I'm in shutter priority, does it set the compensation, or does it stay @ 0 unless you tell it otherwise?

Shutter priority won't set it on its own. You do have to set it yourself (otherwise it is "0"). I don't know what camera you are using, but there should be a setting for AES. The icon for this on Canons at least is a "+/-" symbol. Once set, your exposure graph in the LCD will show how much compensation is dialed in. Your owner's manual should show you how to set it on your camera. Basically, when dragon2 is referring to +1.0, he is setting his AES to over-expose by 1 full stop (to compensate for all the white in the image). Which should work okay depending on how much of your image is composed of the white stuff. But again, once set, this will affect all shots you take whether there is snow in the image or not. I highly recommend playing with it on the ground (before all the snow melts).

[everymansaved 0]

Hmmmm, I think I see what you're saying. But if I set it to +1.0, won't it make the f Stop # one bigger number, meaning that the aperature would be smaller, resulting in a darker picture? Or does that mean that it makes it one size bigger aperature which happens to be a smaller number?

God made firefighters so paramedics would have heroes...and someone can put out the trailer fires.

[Zee 0]

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Hmmmm, I think I see what you're saying. But if I set it to +1.0, won't it make the f Stop # one bigger number, meaning that the aperature would be smaller, resulting in a darker picture? Or does that mean that it makes it one size bigger aperature which happens to be a smaller number?

Not if you're shooting in Aperture Priority. If you push the exposure one stop, it'll use a slower shutter speed to compensate.

If you shoot in Shutter Priority and push the exposure one stop, it'll use a larger Aperture (smaller F number)

Action©Sports

[everymansaved 0]

Well, I took a look at the camera and found that it was set to -0.5 without me knowing. That would darken them up some, no?

God made firefighters so paramedics would have heroes...and someone can put out the trailer fires.

[PharmerPhil 0]

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Well, I took a look at the camera and found that it was set to -0.5 without me knowing. That would darken them up some, no?

Yes.

[everymansaved 0]

Ah ha! Now I just have to wait until the weekend to try it in the air!

God made firefighters so paramedics would have heroes...and someone can put out the trailer fires.

[jtval 0]

Im glad I read the whole post.
at your first post I was going to ask if you had exposure compensation kicked up.

I had about 4 jumps where I did the same thing and didn't realize it.


I asked someone WTF was up and they said :click,click: "there, it's fixed."

My photos

My Videos

[Laszloimage 0]

Full manual exposure setting!
Take a few pictures on the ground with the subjects (jumpers) to get a an "idea". Use the manual setting what you liked the best during the skydive.
Also use RAW so you'll be able to make corrections easier.
-Laszlo-

[everymansaved 0]

Yeah, I believe someone further up in the thread said to take the settings from the exit shots and plug them in to full manual. Maybe I'll try that next weekend. Thanks for all your help guys.

God made firefighters so paramedics would have heroes...and someone can put out the trailer fires.

[mnealtx 0]

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Shutter at 1/250, ISO at 200.

What aperture?

Any EC?

How did the snow look?

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[mnealtx 0]

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I just came back from a mostly very sunny skiing trip, I made the best photos with the camera set at +0.7 stop. Some others had theirs set to +1.0 stop.
If you shoot in RAW you have the best chance at fixing shots like these because you can control the lighting afterwards.

You can only do so much, even in RAW. Bumping exposure brings out a LOT of noise.

To touch back on the 'sunny 16' mentioned earlier:

That's f/16, shutter speed equal to ISO. That is for (duh) sunny conditions - hard edged shadows.

Beach or snow, you close down a stop to f/22.

So, you have (remember - shutter speed is equal to your ISO!):

f/22 - beach or snow
f/16 - sunny (hard-edged shadow)
f/11 - hazy (soft-edged shadow)
f/8 - overcast (faint shadow)
f/5.6 - stormy (no shadow)

It's not perfect but it should get you pretty close.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[velocityphoto 0]

Now thats what i'm talkin bout! Full manual :)
I got away from letting the camera make decisions i should be making for my self.

A friend will bail you out of jail , a REAL friend will be sitting next to you in the cell slapping your hand saying "DUDE THAT WAS AWSUM " ................

[PharmerPhil 0]

Overall this is a good description of Sunny 16. However, in this case I would disagree with stopping it down because of snow (i.e. "f/22 - beach or snow"). This applies when you are on the beach or in the snow because there is so much close reflected light on your subject. But in this case, you are looking down on your subject with the sun shining on them. There isn't really any light other than the sun shining directly on them, and in this case, the Sunny 16 rule as is would yield better results (I believe). Stopping it down will make the subject darker (what he complained about in the first place), and would make the snow grayer.

[mnealtx 0]

Hi Phil - I agree, I was merely adding the 'snow/beach' info to the general 'sunny 16' recommendation, not advocating that the OP use f/22 in that situation for the exact reason you listed.

In the OP's situation (assuming sunny 16), I would expect to see good exposure on the subject, and the snow on the ground below overexposed - but it's doubtful any meaningful detail would be lost, anyway.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706