Question to manufactures (Dan, George, others ???)

[Vlad 0]

Hello,

I know there are several manufactures here on the forum. I also noticed that they ( I won't point my finger) have a tendency of criticizing each others' products. Here is the question to you, guys. Can you honestly tell us about problems with YOUR OWN canopies/containers ? What don't you like about your current products, what would you rather change ?
Come on, share with us

[Unutsch 0]

vlad, this is by far the best topic of a thread i've seen in ages!!!

hehe, it will definetely be great fun to see how they will react

Check out the site of the Fallen Angels FreeflY Organisation:
http://www.padliangeli.org

[SkySlut 0]

Good luck!!!

[KellyF 16]

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Hello,

I know there are several manufactures here on the forum. I also noticed that they ( I won't point my finger) have a tendency of criticizing each others' products. Here is the question to you, guys. Can you honestly tell us about problems with YOUR OWN canopies/containers ? What don't you like about your current products, what would you rather change ?
Come on, share with us

The problem with this is that if we admit to not liking something about our product, we will be asked "are you going to change it?". If we say no, it will be frowned upon, and if we say yes, potential customers will hold thier orders until the changes are released We are always looking to make improvements, but it is best to "zip it" until a release date is near

[Vlad 0]

Hi, Kelly

Thanks for replying.

I think just the opposite way. If we hear from a manufacturer who tells us about cons in his products, and not his competitors', a majority of us, customers, would feel that this manufacturer is honest. Everybody knows, that every single system has it flaws. Being honest with customers will pay you. On the other hand, telling that your product is flawless as compared to others' will tell me that I won't get an honest answer from these guys.

Everybody understands, that the more you wait, the better skydiving(and other) equipment will become. But, thinking like that, we won't buy parachutes, cars, computers, et cetera. We are happy, that the progress in skydiving equipment is not as fast, as in computer industry. I think I read somewhere, that in a year computers become twice as powerful, and 4 times cheaper. Imagine that with parachutes !

One more thing. If you are a manufacturer, please, please, do not say anything bad about others' products. Even if you are telling what you honestly beleive, it is hard for us to us to diffirentiate between those who do, and those who are just doing the marketing...
Just my 2 cents.

[sundevil777 94]

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telling that your product is flawless as compared to others' will tell me that I won't get an honest answer from these guys.

Can you cite an example of this?

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[Vlad 0]

Sundevil, I won't do that, because I told in the beginning that I won't point my finger on anyone. Sorry.

Vlad

[ZigZag 0]

I sincerely believe that manufacturers try to bring the best product to market today. It is a constant evolution and we can probably thank the free-fly community for many of the recent improvements.
Free-flyers have become a large segment/target of the skydiving community/market, respectively, as they are pushing the limitations of equipment, forcing designers to respond to issues such as bridle and pin protection, risers protection and last but not least aesthetics and comfort. Manufacturers are also constantly on the look-out for means to improve manufacturing techniques to keep production costs low, without compromising safety.
The manufacturing of skydiving equipment is labour intensive and has eluded or not been able to take advantage of modern mass production techniques. Well, having said that, we all know that our world is not perfect.

We need to consider the human factor. That involves the manufacturers, riggers and jumpers. From the sewing machine operators, Q/C inspectors, designers, management, to riggers and finally dropzones and jumpers, we all share a common responsibility to ensure we maintain our equipment and keep it in optimum condition for what it is "intended" or "designed" for.

If any given manufacturer would claim that their equipment does not meet certain criteria of safety and still insists on branding their gear as the best on the market, we would experience the height of hypocrisy and that MFG. would find itself out of business.

Maybe we are talking about truth in advertising, and that in itself is a very important subject. Anybody can claim an improvement in design, but until it has truly been tested in the field, we won't know what gremlins have been created, as component compatabilities become increasingly complex. Even this sounds strange to myself, because I used to think that we were approaching some sort of commonality as far as equipment was concerned. No, because every change or innovation in the industry requires new insights, and needs to be "grandfathered" into the existing state of the art. This is where we as jumpers also need to recognize our limits! We should not just be consumers of any given product based on advertisement. We then run the risk of being lemmings and just might fall of the cliff, metaphorically speaking.

At this time I still believe, that the best a manufacturer can do is to post a service bulletin about problems they recognize. Sometimes an airworthiness directive issued by the FAA is required, to force a manufacturer into compliance when a problem or safety issue has been identified that otherwise would be ignored. There are many examples of manufacturers complying with or doing just that.

I have a lot of respect for manufacturers that have volumes of SB's and AD's, but it does not mean that those that don't have that kind of baggage are inferior or superior. I may have neglected canopy manufacturers, but the industry is rife with good examples there too.
Ultimately I believe that we each make a choice. Skydiving is dangerous. When shit happens you can or will die. To make this sport safer, we need to pay more attention to our "equipment", and maintain it!!! What comes new out of the box will sooner or later wither away. It is a fact of life!

[Vlad 0]

Well, do not you think it would be fair if all companies put the safety bulletins on their web sites ? So far I saw them on very few ones : Icarus, Altico, may be someone else as well.

[JayhawkJumper 0]

I'm not a gear manufacturer, but I think Kelly is right. You can't really ask someone to tell you about the flaws of their product. If they knew there was a flaw, there wouldn't be one. So to each person, their canopy/container etc. is the best one out there. Also, what one person might consider the biggest flaw of a product might be the biggest selling point of it to another person. To my knowledge, most gear manufacturers are ready to listen to suggestions, so if you think something could be improved, let them know and it might happen.

[ZigZag 0]

It is more of an issue of where you can find the information. There are many sites you can access. RiggerRob often refers to the Australian Parachute Federationwww.apf.asn.au. There is the PIAwww.pia.com, were you can get a lot of info in their Public Documents and Yellow Pages section, as most manufacturers are members of the PIA. They have a link to the Rigging Advisory Circulars and Service Bulletins compiled by the Australian Parachute Federation. Simply calling the manufacturer and talking to the resident rigger also helps.

Service Bulletins are issued once a flaw or problem is recognized. These bulletins are then forwarded to riggers and dropzones and published in the various skydiving publications. This system has worked well so far. Not all manufacturers publish a comprehensive list of SB's or AD's on their website, but the information is there, nevertheless. Some manufacturers simply don't have many if any Service Bulletins to issue. Collecting and being aware of SB's and AD's is what many riggers and lofts around the country spend a lot of time on.

I would be hard pressed to issue a Service Bulletin on a piece of equipment, when I haven't even identified the problem yet.

Dig a little deeper and you will find the information you are looking for.

[Rdutch 0]

The only thing I have a problem with as far as gear manufacturer's is, when you have a problem, admit to it, and fix it. Let everyone know about it also.
Not mentioning any name's (and just one case) but if you release a faulty product, it should be your responsability to fix it, not say to your customers "we will fix it at your cost, and it is mandatory. And sorry we messed up". If I had one of these product's it is safe to say it would be the last.

Another note, there is some incredible, manufacturer's in the skydiving industry, here is some to note that arent main gear related.

Skytools, they set the standard for customer service, I have dealt with them, and they were top notch.

The manufacturers of the pro trac (sorry to lazy to look up the correct spelling)

But any company that can admit to a problem and fix it without charging you for their mess up is a company you want to deal with.

Ray
Small and fast what every girl dreams of!

[pilotdave 0]

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if you release a faulty product, it should be your responsability to fix it, not say to your customers "we will fix it at your cost, and it is mandatory. And sorry we messed up".

Yeah, it sucks, but it's the same way it works with planes. Unless it's under warranty, the owner pays for almost all mandatory fixes/inspections. Planes do normally come with warranties that cover these things for the first few years. Every new or majorly updated design has a bunch of them.

With skydiving equipment, I'm really impressed that any manufacturers come here and talk about their stuff at all. I would take that into account right along side customer service, price, and look.

Dave

[skymedic 0]

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Not mentioning any name's (and just one case) but if you release a faulty product, it should be your responsability to fix it, not say to your customers "we will fix it at your cost, and it is mandatory. And sorry we messed up". If I had one of these product's it is safe to say it would be the last.

hence the reason why I'd never buy another one of "those" products. nothing sucks worse than buying a "new to me" used reserve 218-m and find out I have to send it back to George to get fixed...at MY cost. It was literaly two weeks after I bought it the directive came out....I wont buy another precision product due to this.

[Vlad 0]

Well, I understand that shit happens at every company. And it is normal. Name me at least one car company that did not have a recall at some point of time. But guess what - they are always paying for it ! Even for shipping !

But what I am also concerned with is the attitude of some manufacturers on this forum. I don't need to quote examples - you can probably remember whom I'm talking about. Even though I do not doubt that their product is superior, I will not buy anything from those guys.

[KellyF 16]

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Hi, Kelly

Thanks for replying.

I think just the opposite way. If we hear from a manufacturer who tells us about cons in his products, and not his competitors', a majority of us, customers, would feel that this manufacturer is honest. Everybody knows, that every single system has it flaws. Being honest with customers will pay you. On the other hand, telling that your product is flawless as compared to others' will tell me that I won't get an honest answer from these guys.

.... it is hard for us to us to diffirentiate between those who do, and those who are just doing the marketing...
Just my 2 cents.

Hi Vlad,
I actually lost a sale because I was straight up honest with a person that was looking at buying an Infinity. When he asked about bridle protection, I told him that, depending on the size, there might be 1/2" of bridle exposed. He said "well I do a lot of free flying, so if there is any exposed bridle, maybe this isn't the rig for me". Not a big deal, he probably feels like he has the best rig for him at this point, but 1/2" of exposed bridle won't get blown into a horseshoe just from wind, and the handle on the PC presents a bigger snag hazard.

I think my biggest weakness is marketing, because I don't feel like telling people the same things they've heard before, but then found out to not necessarily be true, even if it is with our rig. I think I should just hire Billy Mays "This is Billy Mays here for the Infinity Harness Container system!" Man, I would never see the light of day!

[ibellis 0]

I must say that I have had the same experience as Kelly, in that I have lost sales in the past based upon honesty with customers.

I have actually had one customer say to me; "what's wrong with you, don't you want to sell canopies". My reponse was "sure, but not this canopy, to you, today". The reason was that this particularly pilot really didn't need a new canopy and had plenty of performance to explore in their current canopy.

Let's face it; all manufacturers attempt to promote their products in the ways they feel will be successful. Aerodyne is included in this by the way folks.

Product differentiation is becoming subtle. There are many good products out there today. I am a staunch believer in not trying to sell Aerodyne products by "attacking" our competitor's flaws or perceived flaws, but rather by promoting the strengths of our designs.

Not all products meet the needs of all customers. Our best customer is the one that is very knowledgeable and decisive about what they would like to see. The old saying "an educated consumer is our best customer" is very true. Customers that are less experienced/knowledgeable have a more difficult time differentiating our products from others and are subject to the best "marketing" or recommendations from self-proclaimed "experts"; some of which have precious little experience or knowledge unfortunately. Don't get me wrong, there are many very knowledgeable people out there as well, but sometimes the people giving others advice makes me shudder.

As to SB's, AD's, etc. I agree that they should be available to the consumer. Any manufacturer that determines there is a problem, should do what they can to make this information available. I believe many companies that have had these issues, have done so.

Overall the "truth in advertising" is one thing while "marketing" is another. Most times, in my experience, manufacturers honestly feel their designs are the best. Relaying this feeling to the consumer can sometimes be difficult. Consequently you read many of the "same old lines". Since many of the characteristics used for comparison are the same, it is only natural to expect manufacturers to continue to say, "we have the best... (fill in the blank) openings, landings, swoops, etc., etc.

The truth is that each design has subtle differences and the best one is the one that gives you the characteristics you are looking for, from a manufacturer you trust, at a good value, and that will have support available should you need it.

If you can get all of this, then we (the manufacturers) have done our job and you (the customer) will ultimately be very happy.

Blue skies,
Ian

[beemertec 0]

I've got to agree with Kelly on this one. I do not know of manufacturers in any industry giving you the cons to their products (except for the drug industry, and they are just covering their ass). If you go to buy a car, how many salespeople tell you the cons of their make and model? When is the last time a Mcdonalds commercial explained how much fat and cholesterol is in their food?
As long as manufacturers do not lie about their product I do not see a problem.

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If you are a manufacturer, please, please, do not say anything bad about others' products

I do agree with you on that point. Manufacturers need to sell on their strong points and not on the competitions weak points. If a salesperson tries to sell me anything by badmouthing someone else I just walk away, because I figure thay are only doing that because they can not come up with anything good to say about their own product so they have to bash someone elses.

Blue Skies
Steve
Ok, so it's pink, but I'm secure in my manhood, and I still look cool coming in under it!

[precision 0]

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hence the reason why I'd never buy another one of "those" products. nothing sucks worse than buying a "new to me" used reserve 218-m and find out I have to send it back to George to get fixed...at MY cost. It was literaly two weeks after I bought it the directive came out....

Well, skymedic, I fully understand your statement on this issue and I respect your opinion. I really do.
The truth is that before we issued SB1221, I had already asked the FAA to issue a mandatory Airworthiness Directive but they responded by stating that "the body count isn't high enough." I couldn't believe my ears! My only choice left was to issue a mandatory service bulletin, which I did. Asking the customer to pay for the fix was a difficult decision for me to make, but the fact is that we (and most other parachute manufacturers) do not have the same scale of resources as the automotive industry.

Many of our dealers have been quite willing to pay the $50 fee for people whom they don't even know, because the dealer will get our $100 merchandise credit in return. It's a win-win-win deal. To them it is like cash in their pocket, because they will turn around tomorrow and place an order for another canopy at an additional $100 discount. I have hooked many people up with this sort of arrangement, but for the most part, our customers have paid the fee and received prompt factory service to accomplish the SB. Some of our dealers provide the service to their own customers at no charge. I'll bet that Ralph Hatley has done hundreds of them for his loyal customers, and he is happy to do it for them because he knows they will come back.

Now, to get back to the original subject of this thread, we do monitor forums here all the time, but most of the time we don't say too much (except for Chris Martin, perhaps) We pay attention to what people say, and we listen to comments and opinions of how people think, react, and experience our equipment. We are constantly striving to improve the parachutes we make. A most recent example is the development of the r-Max reserve. The r-Max has been in development for more than three years, and it embodies many improvements over previous reserves we have produced. That doesn't mean that prior designs are any less airworthy, it simply means that we want to offer our customers the very best products that we can develop, and during the past 20 years, 92% of our production has been TSO'd reserve canopies. The fact is, we have designed, developed, manufactured, and deployed more ram-air reserves than any other manufacturer in the world. We know reserves, and the r-Max will prove to be the best reserve we have ever produced.

I make it a point to personally avail myself to any jumper who wants to call to discuss any of the equipment that we make and sell, and I do talk to a number of customers every day. I am sorry that you feel the way you do, but I am sure that you are comfortable with you decision, and I respect that. Had you contacted me first, perhaps you might feel differently than you do, or perhaps not. In any case, thanks for your comments.

Respectfully,
George Galloway, President
Precision Aerodynamics, Inc.