Pendejo 0 #1 June 25, 2003 I thought about putting this in the incidents section but I wanted to be sure the camera people see it. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ While shooting a tandem video over the weekend I had my first cut away (yes I bought beer). I jump a top mounted camera in a d-box and a Stiletto 135 loaded at 1.7\1 I have 1033 total jumps with a little over 400 camera jumps (with at least 250 of them jumping my Tony Suit wing jacket). After rolling over from getting the opening shot I deployed my main (at 3800 feet) Had 4 wraps of line twists and had to cut away... Thats where it all starts to get exciting. I fought the line twists until the spinning main rolled me in a position where my back was to the earth (not good). At that point I gave up and went to cut away. When I reached for my cut away handle my wings collapsed over it (Remember I was on my back with the wind coming from behind me) so that when I pulled the handle I was also pulling the wing. Needless to say the handle only moved about 3 inches before the wing started interfering. When the handle stopped moving forward and down I looked to see what the problem was, I will not write the words that followed in this forum, but I'm sure you can figure that out for yourselves. So there I am spinning on my back with the cut away handle and my wing all wrapped up together.... I hooked the cables with my thumb and managed to release one riser then the other (that was a wild ride in its self). After getting rid of the main I rolled over and deployed my reserve at 2200 feet landed in the main landing area and finished the tandem video. After reviewing the video there were three things that I found that I would do different. 1: Not stowing the excess brake line on my Mirage G3 is not a good idea. The loop missed my camera by less than a couple of inches. 2: Fighting the line twists until I was rolled to my back was NOT a good idea. 3: Not keeping an eye on the cut away handle until my hands are on it was also not a good idea. Pendejo Pendejo He who swoops the ditch and does not get out buys the BEER!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chachi 0 #2 June 25, 2003 Thanks for sharing, I think I might start stowing my excess brake lines now. ~Chachi Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 3 #3 June 25, 2003 First -- congratulations on your continued existence. You had an issue and worked it out. Good deal. I've written at least a couple of times about the dangers of not stowing excess brake line. It scares the shit out of me and I wish people would just stow it. It only takes a few seconds and may save your life, so it's a few seconds well spent. I've also written a couple of times that docile canopies are probably a better idea for camera flying. Yes, any canopy can spin up, but ones that have a reputation for doing it might be worth avoiding. The Stiletto falls into this category -- it might be a fine canopy for a lot of things, but it does have a very poor reputation for spinning up in line twists.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jedeisurf 0 #4 June 25, 2003 One word Crossfire there have been times when I did not bring my wings in properly and sent myself into a turn on opening and I never spin up only a off heading opening. I love my Crossfire. David Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 3 #5 June 25, 2003 I was actually thinking a bit more conservative than that.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Deuce 1 #6 June 25, 2003 QuoteI was actually thinking a bit more conservative than that. About this conservative?(see pic) (Edit: that's a Spectre) I've since checked my handles belly, back, sit, stand and head-down.(Edit: I ensure my brake lines are correctly stowed every time, now) I got lucky too, jedei. Next time I've gotta perform better. You can't simulate being on your back under a spinning mal. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dragon2 0 #7 June 25, 2003 QuoteI've also written a couple of times that docile canopies are probably a better idea for camera flying. Quade, When I'm (finally) allowed to go camera jumping, I'll be jumping a Lightning 126, and either a Spectre 135 or a Safire 135. Would the Spectre be much better? I'm looking to sell on of my mains so I can pay for the Lightning, and I've got an offer from somebody who wants to do BM with the Spectre. OTO my Safire has been BM'ed too and the guy loved it (jumps a Stiletto 107 normally). I'm still doubting which one to sell; the Safire is fun to fly, it's a bit smaller too, but I simply love 7 cells... And following CReW isn't much fun (or rather, too much!) with a 9-cell... But I like the WL on the Safire just a tad better. Would a Spectre at 1.14 or the Safire at 1.22 make a really big difference..? ciel bleu, Saskia Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jedeisurf 0 #8 June 25, 2003 Yes, Paul a more conservative canopy would be better but I enjoy radical canopy ride at the end of a skydive. David Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 3 #9 June 25, 2003 Hey, I said it can happen to any canopy (didn't I?).quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Pendejo 0 #10 June 25, 2003 I understand and agree with Quade. I don't think the wings had ANYTHING to do with the canopy "spinning" up. The video shows I was flat, happy, and stable when I pulled. The wings DID come into play when I went to cut away the main. If I had been jumping a more conservative canopy it might have happened the same way but I doubt that the spin would have been as severe. Pendejo Pendejo He who swoops the ditch and does not get out buys the BEER!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 3 #11 June 25, 2003 I don't want to get into specific canopy choices for individuals because there are just too many variables, but generally speaking I'd recommend a docile canopy. Docile with respect to openings and landings. Seven cell canopies have fewer problems than nine cell canopies and are generally more forgiving of bad pack jobs. Lighter wingloadings have a tendancy to not react as drastically to minor issues such as line twists. When you jump camera I think you'll find that you have enough to deal with so the more you can cut down on the "excitment" of the jump -- probably the better. Hence my title of The World's Most Boring Skydiver -- in case anyone has ever wondered. I do, sort of, understand why some full-time (7 days a week for school, tandem and professional teams) camera flyers might want something a bit more snappy for their landings, but I really can't recommend anything along those lines for anyone that's only jumping on the weekends. I personally jump a Spectre loaded at about 1.2 to 1.3 to 1 depending on how I'm doing on my diet. Now, just to sort of illustrate why "boring is better" I have about 1550 jumps, about 1100 of those are camera jumps and to date -- zero reserve rides and zero trips to the hospital. Take that for what you will.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ShaggyFord 0 #12 June 25, 2003 Pendejo, you never told me about the excess brake line thing. Damn. I think I'll start stowing mine as well. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
garywainwright 0 #13 June 25, 2003 When i started jumping camera i modified my cutaway drill slightly. When i reach for my handles i reach into the middle of my chest then work outwards for them to try and avoid this very thing. NB If you plan on changing your drills you might want to have a chat with an experienced instructor first. Secondly i totally agree about excess break lines, i've been bangin on about this to anyone who will listen for ages! Ever since i saw anti - gravity, watch the slo mo section of the French 8 way cameraflyer deploying - his break lines are all over his camera - yeuch!! Have fun!!http://www.garywainwright.co.uk Instagram gary_wainwright_uk Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Deuce 1 #14 June 25, 2003 QuoteHey, I said it can happen to any canopy (didn't I?). Absolutely. I can just remember expecting the spinning to stop at about three, which I have experienced a few times, the canopy to inflate and go into level flight, and me to have plenty of time/altitude to kick out. When it went all spinneto I was thinking-as I grabbed my handles-"this just isn't supposed to happen". And, yes, in the hangar virtually everybody said "You spun up a SPECTRE?!" Like I had done it on purpose. I recommend them for camera fliers, and loaded at about 1.6, like mine, they handle plenty snappy, and no neck-breaker openings. With that wingloading, though, unlike Quade, I have had a trip to the hospital and a chop at 500 jumps. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 3 #15 June 25, 2003 Oh, one more thing -- check out THIS thread. A lot of what applies to BirdMan flying applies to camera flying with in terms of deployments with regard to our wacky camera suits.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AndyMan 7 #16 June 25, 2003 Quote Secondly i totally agree about excess break lines, i've been bangin on about this to anyone who will listen for ages! Not that I disagree with you, but Javelin does. In their latest manual they recomend against stowing excess brake line. They recomend brake line should be left loose up against the riser. Myself? I switched to RWS risers on my jav partly because of the built in stows.... _Am__ You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 3 #17 June 25, 2003 Really? I'm looking at the Javelin Manual right now and don't see anything about recommending the excess brake line being left loose. Page 8 figure 3. I will admit they don't tell you what to do with it if you have the No Velco toggle, but I can't find anything that recommends camera flyers leave it flopping in the breeze. I have the No Velcro toggles on my Jav and there is a fairly easy way to deal with it -- take the loop and place it into the elastic keeper for the bottom part of the toggle, then put the bottom part of the toggle into it. I think it probably adds a little wear and tear to the elastic, but other than that it keeps the excess out of the way pretty nicely. I will bite the bullet here and drop them an email just to see what they have to say on the subject.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AndyMan 7 #18 June 25, 2003 How very odd. I'm sure I saw it in there a while ago, but - it isn't. The odd thing is that they show stowing lines in the provided stow - but my jav risers don't have stowes... Perhaps this is a new change. My bad. _Am__ You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 3 #19 June 25, 2003 No. They have TWO different types of risers. One type has a Velcro strip specifically for stowing the excess brakeline and the other is No Velcro design. The reason a person might opt for the No Velcro design is that, Velcro needs occasional maintenance and replacement -- however, Sun Path doesn't show a recommended way for stowing the excess brake line for this option.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pcalandra 0 #20 June 26, 2003 Wow, glad you got it under control Keith, I never really thought about my wing wrapping around handles like . Thanks for the post! Personally, I'd rather fly a more conservative canopy with my head full of cameras as others have mentioned. My experience with a Stilletto is that even dropping a shoulder "a little" during opening can fast become a wild ride Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Billy 0 #21 June 26, 2003 Glad your Ok an great job sorting it all out! I've only got 275+ jumps, 150+ with camera, and just been ok'd for shooting tandems at our small DZ by our S&TA. Lots of info from this site has kept me heads up and I take a "very boring approach" also to keeps us all safe. I was recently thinking of adding some small wings for the tandems, but decided against it for now. I jump a Falcon 210 and I'm ~190lbs out the door. I can fly up an down without much problem relative to the tanedms without the wings and figured it was one less worry for the time being... I'm inspired when I see your professionals work, but realistically I gotta me. Safe Jumps Boys! Billy Natural Born FlyerZ.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
blair700 0 #22 June 26, 2003 Pendejo, Great job, you live, you learn. I too jump a G3 and refuse to leave my excess line unstowed, so I had a rigger sew an elastic keeper on the riser between the top and bottom toggle keepers. Same concept as the elastic do-hicky on your chest strap, just sewn on the back of the riser. Does the job nicely, I don't like to put the excess in the same keeper as the toggle. Good luck to you and the rest of your team this weekend Look forward to seeing you in Chester again sometime. C-ya Pfuego Rodrigez Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Pendejo 0 #23 June 26, 2003 PFUEGO! It looks like the team will be in chester in a couple weeks to get in some practice. Thanks for the elastic do-hicky thingy thought. I'll have Siete look into it for me. The cut away sucked (BUT IT DID FIND ALL MY SHIT!! WOO HOO!!)... But after I saw the brake line on video I went back through some of my past stuff and found it happens a LOT more than I would have guessed. It looks like it is happening around 1 in 30 jumps. Thats way to many to let it stay like it is. Pendejo "gotta fix that" Rodriguez Pendejo He who swoops the ditch and does not get out buys the BEER!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 3 #24 June 30, 2003 QuoteDoes the job nicely, I don't like to put the excess in the same keeper as the toggle. Please see THIS thread. The way I stow mine is the same way as shown in Excess Linestowage Elastic1.jpg .quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
base704 0 #25 July 3, 2003 I'm really surprised to see all this talk about stowing excess brake line... I've been jumping Javelins, and stowing the brake lines like that for the last three years. I thought that this was common practice. Hmmm. Did people actually "do nothing" with this excess until now?You can get a lot more done with a kind word and a gun than with a kind word alone. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
