Offering DVD

[howardwhite 5]

Our DZ, a club operation, is considering offering DVD. It seems kind of a no-brainer, except for the possibility of some equipment purchase. Blockbuster and others are moving toward DVD and away from VHS and it seems young people will buy DVD players and not VCRs in the future.

Video and stills are going up this year to $95. All of the local videots are shooting digital but editing analog (Panasonic WJAxxx, Videonics) and producing VHS tapes.

Any DVD offering would be on top of this -- in other words you get a VHS whether you want one or not, and the DVD will be produced from this analog tape.

We examined three options.....not an exhaustive list, which is why I'm asking here.

1. One videot has home DVD production capabilities, including a burner that prints pretty color personalized labels on the disc and includes a DVD menu. On the menu, in addition to the jump, about 10 minutes of stock footage of other skydiving stuff...what's up with AFF, what are the disciplines, etc.

He would take the VHS video home, make a DVD with all this stuff, and priority mail it and the tape to the customer in a few days....all for $65 to him. The DZ can charge whatever else it wants beyond that, but you're talking close to $200 to see yourself in the sky if the club is to make some money too.

2, Another also has a more limited burner at home without color printing and labels and a menu. He's not sure what his prices would be, but let's say $30.

In both these cases, the customer would not get either a tape or CD for several days.

3. Alternatively the club could buy a VHS -> DVD burner without the fancy stuff but able to take each videot's tape and burn a disk. Could be same-day service, though probably not on a busy day.

Pros, cons, rants and raves are welcome.

HW

[indyz 1]

Going from camera to VHS to DVD is a waste. It will actually result in less quality than VHS and more expense for the customer. VCRs aren't going away anytime soon. I would wait on producing DVDs until you can do the operation totally digital: digital video from the camera, edit in a computer, and burn straight to DVD. Even then, it's impossible to burn a DVD that will work in all DVD players.

[PhreeZone 15]

How are you going to handle the people that pay for the DVD then it does'nt work in their player? I've got a DVD like that now that luckly still plays in my Playstation2 or else I'd be screwed.

200 is a lot to see your self in the air. Thats more then the cost of the Tandem its self. That makes the jump about $400. I would'nt even try to push that to most young kids that have enough issue paying for the video alone. Why make stills standerd? Make them optional (seperate charge) and for a X upgrade fee you can convert the VHS to DVD and only give them the DVD. Then again if your going to take the time to computerize it to make it into a DVD might as well do all the editing on the PC too.

DVD is good for those few cases that the market demands it but how many people asked last year if they could get their jump on DVD at your club?

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[Deuce 1]

We're burning DVD's real time with the VHS. We're selling a lot of them. We have a dedicated dubber who does the same basic edit for each customer. The camera flyers also shoot pretty much the same menu, so the dubber knows what she's looking for. Our banner to open, the sun to close. The script is banner, gearup fluff, walk to plane, boarding plane, in plane fluff, exit, close up, orbit/drogue shot, close up, opening, landing, fluff, sun.

I feel fortunate that we've got the franchise format at our DZ, I just get to concentrate on flying, and not checking credit cards and editing (I really need to improve my editing skill, though). So I'm not realy sure on the extra price for the DVD, I think video, stills and DVD is like $105, Video and stills is $85.

[howardwhite 5]

To Indyz and PhreeZone

Thanks for your quick response. Certainly the issue of discs that won't play is a serious one; quick answer is you give them their money back. But this is likely to go away, IMHO.

Indyz, please help me understand how VHS -> DVD will result in lesser quality than VHS alone.

I think it will be some time before most videots will be all digital. For one thing, at this point NLE digital seems to take significantly longer than analog. That's a drawback if you're on back to back loads.

Phree...

Stills used to be separate ($75/$10 or some such). All videots are equipped to do both and it complicates things majorly at manifest for such small change. Besides, if the video gets screwed up (I know, never happens) at least there are stills. Same is true of not giving them the VHS even though it exists.

The reason the question comes up is that in fact people were asking.

Again, thanks for your input into what I hope will be a fruitful discussion.

HW

[howardwhite 5]

Quote

I think video, stills and DVD is like $105, Video and stills is $85

How can DVD be only $20 more? What are the prices of discs these days?

Thanks for confirming my suggestion there's a market.

HW

[JumpHog 0]

$65 is a bit steep to charge for a DVD copy off of a VHS tape (which is going to look pretty sloppy). Starting last year, I provided DVD copies to any customer who wanted them. The cost was an extra $30. Also, instead of copying it off of the VHS tape, I ran firewire straight out of the camcorder, into my editing board (MXProDV) and then outputted in firewire to a standalone DVD burner. By doing this, the digital signal was maintained all the way through the editing and burning process, so the customer got a true digital master. The whole process took about 10 minutes per DVD, plus I could dub to VHS simultaneously, so the customer could leave with their DVD and VHS copy. This setup worked great, as I sold about 250 DVD's last year alone.

[PhreeZone 15]

About $3-5. Cheaper in bulk. I know I'm not replacing my DVD player (Toshiba 2 years old) for about another 5 years min so I'm screwed, alot of young kids are going to be in the same boat. New players support some types of burned disks and others don't.

DVD is MUCH higher quality then VHS, if all you want is to get it on a disk at that quality SVCD will do that and you can make those on any CD burner. If you are going to do DVD do it right and use digital footage, other wise its a waste of the medium.

What you really need to look at with the DVD is are you doing it as more of a service to the customer or as advertising (sticking lots of other things besides the actual jump on it). If itsa service most people want to walk out with their product to show their family that night and their coworkers Monday morning. If its an advertisiment you might have to forgo profit and look at each one as a television ad.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[howardwhite 5]

This approach would seem to be a manifest monster. How do you offer different products? CrossKeys is a lot bigger than the club I'm talking about. Well, you can have direct DV only or VHS to DV or VHS only or....

Can you tell me how CrossKeys handles this?

HW

[howardwhite 5]

Quote

If itsa service most people want to walk out with their product to show their family that night and their coworkers Monday morning. If its an advertisiment you might have to forgo profit and look at each one as a television ad.

That's an interesting point and I hope others will comment....including how one might quantify such results.

HW

[JumpHog 0]

Quote

This approach would seem to be a manifest monster. How do you offer different products? CrossKeys is a lot bigger than the club I'm talking about. Well, you can have direct DV only or VHS to DV or VHS only or....

Can you tell me how CrossKeys handles this?

While I can't go into great detail about our business tactics, I can give you some basics. We have one person who runs the video concession. This person is responsible for promoting and selling the video/stills and DVD package to every first-jump student. By doing this, the burden on manifest is lowered substantially. If the student opts for the video/DVD, they are given a video ticket stapled on top of their stack of paperwork. After filling out the paperwork, it is turned into manifest. All manifest has to do is take the paperwork and then manifest the student with a tandem-master and also with a videographer if they have a video ticket. This process works very smoothly.

[Deuce 1]

The DVD is an add-on after everybody has been paid, video, manifest, and dubber. The discs are like $3, so it's about maintaining and replacing the DVD burner and making a little profit for the concession owner.

I am surprised by the number of young people who don't own a VCR, but there's plenty.

[tictoc 0]

We do $30 DVD at are drop zone. We are all paied by envelope that the manifest has given the student. The manifest gives them another envolope to give to the vid flyer to give to the editor when they pay them for the edit. We use Mac for the DVD editing. It works great. The DZ does not see any of the DVD money though. We also have a printed list of devices that the DVD will not play on and have the student go over it befor they decide.

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Some one must go to the edge for others to be able to find it. But if you go be sure you can make it back.

[PhreeZone 15]

Quantify for me is that if the Tandem video is 10 minutes long anything over about 3-4 minutes of DZ footage is pushing into being more about the DZ then about the student. Are you having them pay to buy your advertizement with their jump on it or are they buying thier jump with just a small commercial?

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[newshooter12 0]

If I'm right a standard DVD+/-R holds about 1 hour of DV footage. (That's what my friend's AVID system lets him fit of uncompressed DV.) So there's lots of extra space so why not add on some extra footage and possibly get the customer excited about the sport with the video?
I don't know, but don't many DZs put a stock leader or open on every copy that goes out the door? And that's an advertizement. I just think it would be silly not to take every opportunity you have to expose your customer to the sport while you've got a captive audience.
Just my $.02.
matt

[PhreeZone 15]

There is a difference between putting a leader of a minute or two and having advtisments that are almost as long as the jump its self on it. I compare it going to the movies. Anything over about 3 previews I just want to fastforward to get to the actual movie and I zone out. I've seen one DZ put out a video with a 2 minute leader then a 5 minute video. I was amazed that the advertizment was almost as long as 50% of the video for one, and that they would actually sell a video that consisted of 10 second flashs of gearing/walking out the plane/maybe 20 seconds on the plane and then just recorded from first group out till pull then the landing.

Using the medium for its potential is not just filling it all the way up, its putting chapters on it, making custom labels for each buyer, customizing the title in the DVD for the student things like that. If it was just about length you could fill up a VHS tape just the same.

Unless you have a dedicatated editor thats able to work on DVD stuff all day or maybe the board that some one was talking about earlier its going to be hard to deliver the DVD as fast as you could offer the VHS. Then you have to start mailing the DVD's so thats taking money to do and you have to make sure the price covers the cost of postage too.

So far the best applications I've seen for DVD in skydiving is boogie videos, year end videos and team training videos that let you jump right to the chapter covering the jump you want to do and stuff. Tandem videos have thier place on DVD also but from my point of view you'd have to possibly change the way you do things to make them work (have a full time editor, start mailing all tapes and DVD's, or something else)

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[tictoc 0]

I would also like to say that we do have a full time editor. We do this to acheave the same standard on every video and then we mail the VHS to the student. We charge $70. but then again I don't think or vid flyer gets payed as much as other DZ's.

--------------------------------------------------------
Some one must go to the edge for others to be able to find it. But if you go be sure you can make it back.

[howardwhite 5]

Quote

So there's lots of extra space so why not add on some extra footage and possibly get the customer excited about the sport with the video?

1. Takes a lot of extra time to burn.

2. See Phree"s objection to too much advertising.

'Course if you can include a menu on the DVD, that allows the viewer to skip to what he wants to see. But that costs extra bucks.

HW

[newshooter12 0]

I know everything costs $$$s. How about setting things up in advance? Like my DZ does... it has a stack of pre-leadered tapes with a 4 minute leader (that I think adds to the excitement of watching your jump video and shows some of the other aspects of the sport) and depending upon the video flyer you I've seen between 7-15 minutes for a jump of edited work.
Call me a newbie to DVD, because I haven't burned one myself, but can you set up DVDs with everything pre-recorded/burned such as you can by putting the leader on a VHS copy? (similar to the way you can burn a CD, but not close out the session so you can add more later.) Then add the customers' jump(s) to the disc? matt

[JumpHog 0]

Quote

Call me a newbie to DVD, because I haven't burned one myself, but can you set up DVDs with everything pre-recorded/burned such as you can by putting the leader on a VHS copy? (similar to the way you can burn a CD, but not close out the session so you can add more later.) Then add the customers' jump(s) to the disc?

Yes. What we do is have our editor dub the leader onto all of our DVD's before hand as a seperate chapter. That way, all that I have to do is put the disc in the burner and start recording my customer's skydive. This also gives the customer an easy way to skip over the leader if they want to get straight to their jump (all they have to do is jump to chapter 2 on the disc).

[newshooter12 0]

That sounds like it wouldn't add much more time then dubbing off a VHS copy then. Or is it slower than "realtime" to burn the video?
matt

[JumpHog 0]

Quote

That sounds like it wouldn't add much more time then dubbing off a VHS copy then. Or is it slower than "realtime" to burn the video?

The recording process itself doesn't take any more time than a VHS and, in fact, can be dubbed simultaneously with a VHS copy. The only additional time required is to 'finalize' the disc. This usually takes about 5-7 minutes and can be done either while I'm getting ready for my next jump, or while I'm in the air.