leg turns

[steve1 5]

After months and months of not jumping I finally got in the air again last weekend. I blew a lot of dust off.

I came to the conclusion that I need to learn how to use my legs more when doing R.W. When coming in for several side body docks I was unsqare with the other person. I was able to get one grip easily, but was too far out for the other side body grip. I was wasting seconds trying to slide over and get that other grip.

After hours of rethinking this, I'm just wondering if dropping a knee might be a handy trick to learn to swing your legs around to get the other grip. Or would just rotating my hips slightly be better? I need to learn how to fly my lower body.....Steve1

[GQ_jumper 4]

Definitely take what I say with a grain of salt on this one(look at my jump numbers), but one thing I did to help with getting my legs working too. Do some solo jumps, and just turn in place, making sure your legs are working just as much as the rest of your body when you are turning, then do some using only your legs. I did quite a few jumps like this and notice that now when i'm working on flying with someone i don't think about using my legs, they automatically do all the work freeing my arms up to take grips.

It worked for me, and it continues to help on those days when i can't find anyone that DOESN'T WANT TO FREEFLY!!! Good luck bro.

History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid.
--Dwight D. Eisenhower

[elightle 8]

Hi, Steve.

You're gonna get a lot of opinions on this thread, I bet, but that's good. Don't take them all as the gospel though. Run them by an experienced 4-way coach.

With that said, here's my two cents worth. You're correct in that you should drop a knee. Just don't twist your upper torso like they teach students. That technique can actually move you off heading when you finish your turn. The trick is to "turn in place."

So if you can't afford a trip to the tunnel, do 2-way no contact drills with another experienced jumper or coach. Exit a 2-way star but when you break to a no contact star, bring both hands in front of your chin and fly that way for a while. You'll notice that you can fly pretty well this way. Of course, you don't have to keep your hands in front of your chin but try not to stretch your arms out to the sides. Keep your elbows slightly forward, knees slightly bent, and hips relaxed.

(Sorry for all the details but I'm a technical writer). Next, you and your partner take turns doing 360's using only your legs. Keep those hands and elbows where they are. Don't worry about the speed of your turns. To stop the turn, of course, drop the other knee. (I am sure you know that to turn right you drop the left knee, and vice versa for a left turn.)

On another jump, allow yourself to use your elbows to help start and stop your turns. (I am sure you know that to turn right you drop the left knee and right elbow, and vice versa for a left turn.)

Again, sorry for the details but I think amidst all the coaching and training camps we also need literature with details.

Blues!
Ed Lightle

[daveb 1]

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You're gonna get a lot of opinions on this thread

Well, this IS dropzone.com....

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Again, sorry for the details but I think amidst all the coaching and training camps we also need literature with details.

Ed, nicely written and accurate. There is a dearth of technical material on flying relative, and your posts and articles go a long way to fill the empty space.

However, there is only so much that can be learned about flying your body without actually flying your body. Most people, myself included, have a poor understanding of how much input they are giving/lacking in the air, especially when the air time is low. Partly, it's a matter of communication - as a writer like yourself is intimately aware - but also a personal integration of that information with body motion when the movement is novel or unpracticed. In this regard, there is no substitute for hands-on coaching and training. And there is no better crucible than a wind tunnel with video and a coach to learn the Oh, so that's how it feels proper inputs.

Steve, very perceptive and accurate that you need to use your legs more. But equally important to your body flight technique is your RW technique. Specifically:

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I was unsqare with the other person. I was able to get one grip easily, but was too far out for the other side body grip. I was wasting seconds trying to slide over and get that other grip.

Rule #1: do not pick up grips until you are in position. Rule #2: pick up grips simultaneously. Rule #3: do not move while on grips. Okay, I made up these rules on the spot, but they are good rules for relative flying, and are the basis of moving faster. As you experienced, it was difficult to fly your body around to get the other grip. It is much easier to fly to a position and pick up grips than to connect yourself to someone else trying to make a different move while trying to finish yours; plus, it makes your partner's job more difficult if you have one grip but are moving yourself to gain the other.

I recommend you try Ed's drills first in isolation - even solo - concentrating on using your legs only to turn. The goal is to learn leg inputs, not learn turn technique, so go big and find that point of instability: what works better, worse, does nothing. Put a couple of jumps towards this before you try to integrate it with your upper body for a 'proper' turn. Then add another jumper and try Ed's suggestions, but remembering what you felt on your previous solo jumps. When it comes time to add grips to the mix, remember the three 'rules' above, which translate to the mantra: "Move-stop-grips".

[dgskydive 0]

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Rule #1: do not pick up grips until you are in position. Rule #2: pick up grips simultaneously. Rule #3: do not move while on grips. Okay, I made up these rules on the spot, but they are good rules for relative flying, and are the basis of moving faster. As you experienced, it was difficult to fly your body around to get the other grip. It is much easier to fly to a position and pick up grips than to connect yourself to someone else trying to make a different move while trying to finish yours; plus, it makes your partner's job more difficult if you have one grip but are moving yourself to gain the other.

]

Damn Dave! I am glad a have been reading all the replies today. Once again I think this is dead on.

Fly your body into the correct position before taking grips. The knees will help you to swing around but you may turn the entire formation at the same time. Gips are a reward. Put your body into the right slot, then you can have your reward.

When we see the big boys doing 4 way a lot of time it looks like they are flying and taking grips at the same time, but they are just so good and fast you don't really see the stop. There are some times when you can get away with that, but most of the time for most us mortals. It is all aout flying to the slot, stopping and taking grips only after the other two are done.

This is kinda where the slow is fast thing comes from. Not the you should fly slow. Just do thing one at a time. Turn fast, stop hard and then grip. Everything as fast as you can cleanly do it, just take it one step and a time.

Dom

[steve1 5]

.Rule #1: do not pick up grips until you are in position. Rule #2: pick up grips simultaneously. Rule #3: do not move while on grips. reply]

Thanks Dave,
I should know this by now. I guess my stupidness is showing through....Steve1

[daveb 1]

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Rule #1: do not pick up grips until you are in position. Rule #2: pick up grips simultaneously. Rule #3: do not move while on grips.

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Thanks Dave,
I should know this by now. I guess my stupidness is showing through....Steve1

Are you kidding? My team still does stop drills because we cannot seem to do 1-2-3. Pick up the pace and the discipline falls off. I know that Airspeed will devote days to stop drills. Probably the most difficult thing in RW is remembering the basic discipline in the face of all the other junk that happens while trying to score more points or build a bigger formation. Don't knock yourself even a little bit; every single skydiver has this problem to some degree. Every one.

[tdog 0]

Here is a fun one I did one day when I was doing a solo sunset jump... I put my hands in the "pull" position, one behind my back, the other out front... Then I tried turning with my legs and stopping on a dime... I kept finding new places to put my hands (on my head, behind my back, crossed out front) - and then turned with legs... Kindof makes sure you are isolating your turns only to your legs, as your upperbody is not anywhere near normal flying position... My fear was I was pulling AFF style turns out of my bag of tricks while thinking my legs were doing the work. This helped me isolate my turns to my legs... Not that I am an expert or anything.

[pilotdave 0]

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Do some solo jumps, and just turn in place

How would ya know you're not sliding all over the sky when you're solo?

Dave

[rehmwa 2]

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Do some solo jumps, and just turn in place

How would ya know you're not sliding all over the sky when you're solo?

Dave

Wear a camera

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[daveb 1]

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Do some solo jumps, and just turn in place

How would ya know you're not sliding all over the sky when you're solo?

That's not the point -- use the solo jumps to practice radical edge of control motions, just to get the feel of them, and what is too much. Use relative jumpers to determine slidage.

Solo jumps are a great way to practice things like body awareness or isolation drills, but you would not want to practice solo turns with the idea of staying in the same column of air.

[ThomasHughes 0]

[That's not the point -- use the solo jumps to practice radical edge of control motions, just to get the feel of them, and what is too much. Use relative jumpers to determine slidage.
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Why teach bad muscle memory from the begining?

Do it right the first time!

Get a coach (a good one) or go to the tunnel

[sundevil777 93]

I've never used the 'drop a knee' method.

What has worked well for me is think about rotating your leg about an axis running through your upper leg/thigh. Sorta like your lower leg is a rudder that is trailing behind you to deflect the airstream. I think I started doing this after noticing the Knights doing it many years ago. I practiced it on a couple solos and now it is natural.

One leg at a time or both can be very effective, especially with booties.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[freefallspoon 0]

I don't have massive amounts of experience either but I did have trouble learning to turn with my legs (which gave my FS coaches loads to laugh at but was really frustrating). I kept twisting my body. It wasn't until a coach (in the tunnel as it happens but thats by the by) told me to try and put my knee into his chin. Worked a treat.

Other coaches have also told me to use both legs together as rudder - by moving them over to the side using the knee as a pivot - but I found that too difficult.

All those who live die, not all those who die have lived

[rehmwa 2]

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rotating your leg about an axis running through your upper leg/thigh.

I had described as 'dig a knee' or 'lay a leg over'. The physical move seems to be a bit of both and it's hard to lay a bootie over without dropping a knee and vice versa, but some people have an easier time "thinking/learning" it by concentrating on one or the other. So whatever gets it in our brains is the right way.

For me, thnking about digging a knee made me overdo it. But pressing a bootie over seemed to work mentally for me resulting in a layover/dig.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Avion 0]

For RW, leg turns are the foundation of everything, second only to a good arch. Durning the dive, arms are just too busy taking docks to help significantly with movement. All of your control comes from your legs: Turns, forward/backward, etc. After a lot of fustrating coaching from a lot of different people, I finally got in the tunnel with Sully. In a matter of minutes he had me sorted out. To get your leg turns down, you have to put in the tunnel time with video debriefing. Needless to say, you have to have a good arch and arm position before even starting to develop you legs.

Before ever turning with your legs, practice sissor drills. While keeping you hips and shoulders level, and your legs together, press one knee up and the other straight down, while trying to stay in the same spot for a second or two. Then switch legs and repeat. The goal here being able to alternately get the foot of the lowered leg pressing against the knee of the raised leg, while staying in one place. Then, when you can do that, you can begin to turn by angling the lowered knee out instead of straght down. I find about 30 degrees works best for me. 45 is just to far. It has taken me hours of pratice in the tunnel in order to say that I am just beginning to get good at it.

Cheers